MegaSack DRAW - 6pm Christmas Eve - LIVE on our YouTube Channel
Whoops, missed this and posted the rubbish Rolex pic twice....
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dmrqpYojci4WD5Cx8
plyphon, thought that was your pic at first. Was going to comment on the Patek…
One day if im lucky! Currently on the Rolex and Omega level..!
One day if im lucky! Currently on the Rolex and Omega level..!
Sounds like you are already pretty lucky to me 😀
Thats odd, I swear I posted this, but anyway....
Whats the view on Tag Formula 1's? A budget "posh" watch for a Brand name? Seems an expensive and not exclusive Quartz...
Kryton, watches are so personal. If you like the watch then go for it.
My wife hates my Panerai, I like it. She loves my Bell & Ross, I’m not a fan.
I’m not into Tag watches, but mainly because I remember all the cheap fakes back in the 1990’s.
I like the Blue and Orange colours on the formula 1. It’s a decent price, but yeah it’s a quartz. I like the waz 1010 with the technical strap, can be had for a very good price.
Its not for me, I'm just having a debate about it...
I’d say there are better watches to be had for the price, but a lot of watch like/lust comes from what your opinion or cachet of the brand is.
Because of the cheap nasty Tags when I was younger I’ve never lusted for one. The watches I’d say are nicer watches for the price, Longine Hydroconquest, Oris Aquis Date Rubber, Hamilton or even a Seiko Pressage.
I know absolutely nothing about watch movements, or what makes one watch better than another, and more specifically why a watch is worth £10k and is less accurate than one worth £200. I just buy what I personally like.
Well my Seiko watch buy from Amazon worked out well. Arrived two days later. I eagerly opened the packaging to find the presentation box. Opened the box to find ....... an instruction manual and no watch! Two phone calls to Amazon later I have a refund. Declined a replacement as knowing my lyck I would get another empty box. So still looking.
Ooo Woodster,can we have a photo of the Fiddy please? I never really like Pams but have over th last 6 months really started to hanker for a fiddy...something like a 372 but also like 172, 176, 375 and 605....need to do research and narrow that list down! I's like a 47mm case but need to try one on, my wrists might not manage more than 44...even that might be a struggle although my sumo at 45mm is fine.
Bought the Blue and Black F1 as a cover as I had a lonfer term plan to buy a GMT Master Batman. So far the Mrs hadn't noticed the swap out. Really liked the F1 though and would still be happily wearing it had the opportunity to buy the GMT Master not appeared.
Been a bit quiet on here of late. Have a classic reissue that you can ponder buying mail order for delivery by a key worker.
James Bond watch.
Bought a quartz Tag F1 as a stand in while my watch was away for service.
Haven't taken it off yet. Really clear, tough watch that I actually quite like.
Rubber strap is gash though, but that's just a me thing.
Mine has come back from a service, but is now hostage in the jewellers as I didn't collect it before the closures. Div.
Inspired by all the Seiko's on this thread, this was reduced to £200 and thought I'd give it a whirl. Its a Solar Tuna type homage in Save the Ocean flavour. Came with a black shroud which actually did not look as bad as I expected and felt really light to wear. I swapped over to a stainless imported shroud, as I though it would look more like my idea of a proper watch (and it probably does).
Moved on my Garmin Fenix 3. Also have a 22 year old Omega Seamaster but it loses too much time and I cant quite reconcile spending £400+ on a service.
My magrette came back from warranty repair in New Zealand a week or so ago. Been wearing it pretty much 24/7 since then. Good service from Dion at magrette, offered to pay my postage and chucked a blue NATO strap in with the watch
Just waiting on the dial arriving so I can finish this. Hands and movement are good to go.
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Djflex,
You should be able to get an ETA seamaster fully serviced by a really good independent for half the omega cost.
Ido like seamasters.
I'll make myself do it one day - think I bookmarked one or two threads listing independents in the past.
Ok so I could have a Pepsi Seiko Prospex Solar or a Spinnaker Tesei Ti, Auto, Ceramic Sapphire SKX homage for the same cost as a beater... which?
Not seen the Spinnaker in the flesh, but a Ti watch is nice and light on the wrist. My preference is SKX though.
Here it is:
Is it my eyes or are the 1,2,3,4 and 5 on the bezel all pissed?
Look at the 2 from 1m22s in
Rose Gold Royal Oak. I'm saving up. I have a few steel Ap's
Look at the 2 from 1m22s in
Yeah that put me off, although for the intended use it’s not really an issue. I’m having a really big psycho problem with my watches in that I take care of them too much, and mentally categorise for an intended purpose. My shiny Aquaracer and Prospex I cant stand to wear with anything other than a suit / posh, my Seiko 5 now on an oyster is kinda not so posh office wear, the Alpha Daytona seems to be in limbo, and my Garmin instinct awaits a time I’m camping for bike away days/race events. I’ve move the Bond NATO onto my Seiko military (SNDA57) as a beater but as the battery was changed without the sealing process it annoys me to have to take it off for showers/can’t be on in a pool.
Then there’s the Rose Gold G Steel G-200. Good watch yet pretentious, should have bought the normal metal one.
I’m not even sure what I’m looking for anymore!
I really like that Spinnaker Tessei - I've had my eye on it since before Christmas. If it would have been that price then I might have bought it, but at full price (or just standard % off) it was more then I wanted to spend.
On an unrelated note. When did the retro metal G Shock become so bloody expensive??? (I've have the plastic version of this for years and it's great, but £450+ for a metal case??!! Wow!)
https://g-shock.co.uk/full-metal
Look at the 2 from 1m22s in
Yeah that put me off, although for the intended use it’s not really an issue.
There's no intended use that makes shoddy QC acceptable, IMO anyway. It may be down to camera angles and lens to a degree but I'd really want to see one in the flesh before buying. Spinnaker's a big and well established outfit and should be doing better. Mind you, you could say the same about Seiko...
I’m not even sure what I’m looking for anymore!
I definitely got that impression from your very disparate shortlist! Maybe picking something up second hand would help with being so precious about your watches you can't enjoy them? And TBH as long as your SNDA57 still has its case back seal it's almost certainly still good for pool and shower use, or you could open it and give it a smear of silicone grease round the rubber if you're really paranoid.
When did the retro metal G Shock become so bloody expensive??? (I’ve have the plastic version of this for years and it’s great, but £450+ for a metal case??!! Wow!)
It's always been expensive. If you fancy giving the look a try and you've got one of the compatible plastic versions you can put yours in metal fancy dress for about £20 (case only, the matching strap's quite a bit more). Jody from JOMW has a video on YouTube of him doing it which is quite good fun.
@ross980 they are currently selling them of for $299 / £250 on their own site.
I definitely got that impression from your very disparate shortlist!
Don't get me wrong I do like my watches, but as an naturally indecisive person having that many causes an issue. I'm very reluctant to buy another watch until I feel emotional link to it TBH. I've have been watching second hand Omega Seamasters, which may be my next move given time.
but £450
I paid £310, for this one: https://g-shock.co.uk/gst-b200g-2aer . It does actually look better in the flesh, and other than the non Sapphire Crystal is everything you need for a tool watch.
I thought I'd share the latest addition to the house.
This one was a gift for my (2 month old) son. I don't think he will apreciate it yet, but its a lovely thing to have passed down.
Its his great, great, great Grandfather's watch from 1917.
My Uncle had it serviced before passing it on so we have pressed it onto service as a mantelpiece clock. Its out by about a min a day, seems pretty awesome and as it needs winding about once every day its not a hassle to sort it.
It came with the very game of thrones chair which is a bit over the top, but I might clean it up and sort it as it seems part of the gift.
I thought a 100 year old silver watch would be worth loads, turns out these were made by the truck load and the value is almost all sentimental : )
It also came with a photo copy of a photo of the original owner. The original is in Canada with a very distant relation.
Any other heirlooms out there you would care to share?
Spoke to a friend today who has a relation that works for Watchfinder - they're massively busy with sales at the moment!
Kryton, I understand the over babying a watch but get a grip lad, just as with a bike or car or anything, the fear of damage shouldn't spoil your enjoyment. As a lefty I hit my watch on things a bit more as I'm reaching into cupboards with my left and so on, so none of my watches are pristine, although that said I'm not an abuser of any kit. I don't like a scratch or dink, but it has never stopped me wearing one of my watches.
Oh and the Seiko Sumo (probably all prospex) is made with some propriety steel or treatment that is supposedly harder and resistant to scratches. I read that and thought, 'twoddle' but having worn the sumo a great deal on the last few months the clasp has picked up less desk diver marks than I might have expected so maybe there is something in it.
Here’s two I had a love/hate relationship with.
My original Seiko diver was a quartz and I never had any issues with it at even after years of abuse (I don’t have any photos of it unfortunately) and loved it until I finally lost it.
This auto version went back to Seiko numerous times for faults, losing time, randomly gaining hours etc. The chrono also stopped working and nobody seemed able to revive it and the chrono has a total mind of it own.
I've just bought this, a Swatch Sistem51 Hodinkee Generation 1986:
Can't wait for it to arrive.
More details here:
https://shop.hodinkee.com/blogs/journal/swatch-sistem51-hodinkee-generation-1986
I understand the over babying a watch but get a grip lad, just as with a bike or car or anything, the fear of damage shouldn’t spoil your enjoyment
Totally. There'll always be a bit of a wince when you inadvertently bang a watch on something (unless you're a complete psychopath) but in the end it's what happens to it as you live your life that makes a watch yours. To help with your mindset you could buy a cheapie second hand and maybe you'll be more able to relax about it. Or buy something in bronze or brass - they're not even supposed to look pristine. I've picked up a few scratches to the bezel of my Northstar - they're bright for a couple of days then they just fade into the patina.
Liking that titanium Spinnaker withe black textured dial and blue bezel, so much my style of watch. I think the apparent misalignment of markers may just be a parallax issue with the close-up photos.
@djflexure - liking the Seiko with the steel shroud, very smart looking, that.
My Heimdallr SKX/MM300 homage is currently wearing a plastic Dragonshroud, which I originally bought for the real SKX700, and which fits the Heimdallr perfectly, which tend to indicate that the shape and dimensions are pretty much identical to the original watch.
It’s bulkier than a steel one, but weighs nothing, and is easily slipped off if it’s not needed.
I put it on to wear the watch to work for a change, for some protection, and I’m still wearing it every day three weeks later.
modchop
Subscriber
Here’s two I had a love/hate relationship with.
My original Seiko diver was a quartz and I never had any issues with it at even after years of abuse (I don’t have any photos of it unfortunately) and loved it until I finally lost it.
This auto version went back to Seiko numerous times for faults, losing time, randomly gaining hours etc. The chrono also stopped working and nobody seemed able to revive it and the chrono has a total mind of it own.
/blockquote>
Two nice watches and getting quite collectable these days. Shame they played up and you got rid.
The quartz one is a civilian version of the RAF Gen 2. Issued ones with the P on the dial are the most sought after, but the civvy versions are still collectable in their own right.
The SKX diver 'Black Bullet' might actually have been bought by myself as I had one about four years ago and I do like a fixer-upper at the right price. This model was only sold for a couple of years around 2007-ish and they were priced below the SKX007/9. This was around the time the modding scene was exploding so many got butchered and all original ones are quite rare these days. The one I had came with the original bracelet and I think it sold for £250 when at the time a new SKX007 from Creation was less than half that. The same watch is probably over £400 now.
Cheers for the info, my mate has the issued gen 2 watch with the ‘P’ lovely looking watch but mine was an absolute PITA in the reliability stakes.
I recently got the Pulsar homage to the pilots watch, it’s ok but not as nice looking as the Seiko but hopefully it’ll prove more reliable.
I'm pretty sure I've got one of those Pulsars sitting unused in my bedside drawer. It won't be in brilliant condition, but if anyone wants it for some beer tokens to charity, shout up and I'll root it out.
@tthew If you don’t mind I’d be interested in your watch? PM me and we can sort something out?
Will do beaker. Let me find it tonight and take a picture so you can see the condition, then I'll message you.
This one replaced my last Seiko diver about 3 years ago and so far is proving reliable.
@modchop - that Citizen’s a nice looking watch, still not entirely taken with arrow-head hands, but the dial markers are particularly pleasing somehow.
I think I’d still rather have a mechanical auto, rather than a Kinetic, though.
I’ve never got on with autos as I tend to switch between 3 watches so thought I’d give an Eco Drive a try.
I sat it on a window cill to charge for several hours when I got it and I haven’t purposely ‘charged’ it since and even though it’s been sat in a drawer for several weeks on end it’s never stopped. Yet...
A recent acquisition - a 70s Tissot Seastar quartz:
Popped the Casio Royale on a silicone strap:
I want that. And its only £25!
jamiep
Subscriber
I first posted here asking about Q Timex, decided it was overpriced, bought a Vostok just for something unusual/fun. I actually got an Amphibian and a Komandirskie, both what I thought were the architypal designs. Changed bezel and straps on both. Still don’t know what to do with the Kom strap
Inexpensive watch collection update if anyone is vaguely interested. As you can see, I don't love watches enough to spend big money:
- Parnis Daytona
- Parnis GMT - this is new but Ive not worn it yet - I find the head too large for the jubilee strap
- Loreo Yachtona
- Loreo Diver
- Casio F91W on a nato
- Casio erm gold dress F91W
- Casio Royale
- Casio murdered out World Time
- Two Skmei Casio homages
These Vostoks currently get all of my wrist time:
- Shark mesh strap I had before. Teal bezel is new. I have a teal Scuba Dude on the way that this bezel was for but I love it on the black face so I'll need a rethink when the other on arrives - I have ordered a black bezel and a blue one too.
- Sticking with the black coin edge bezel. After trying a few straps, I am going with the RAF vs Uboat Komandirski.
- A new Komandirski arrived. Swapped bezel and strap for a Q Timex homage (the watch that started all of this)
Love those. I ballsed something up regulating my Komandirskie, adjusted the beat regulator instead of the time and now can't get it anything like accurate. I've got a cheap one with a horrible case coming off eBay to swap the movement out. It'll be the second time I've done it after busting my Seiko a few months ago.
My collection is really befuddling me:
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The Seiko 5 is my daily/office. His & her Tags are wedding presents, The Prospex/Tag are my "Suit" watches. I shouldn't have bought gregarious G Shock - thats going on sale. The SNDA57 is well, a quartz. The Alpha I don't know about, I probably should have bought it. I'm yearning for a Hamilton Intramatic or Yema Speedgraf so the Alpha feels like I went to toyrs-r-us and bought a watch in that everyone would point and look and go lol, cheap.
Hamilton:
Yema:
I like the "manual column wheel chrono" of the Alpha but the others - particularly the Yema have much better movements and more history. The Yema is also column wheel NE86 but an auto. I've decided I don't want chip watches in more, but 2 posh waches with bracelet & strap (Tag, and one of those ^), the 5 and the Instinct as a smart/tough watch.
Sigh.
Panda Intramatic is a lovely thing
PSA!
Spinnaker Tesei Titanium auto diver.... $299 USD with free world wide delivery.
Panda Intramatic is a lovely thing
It is although quite expensive! I like the Yema history, and at the moment anyway the Yema is a limited run of a number per 300 pieces. Then again, I don’t think Yema have appreciated quite the way other watches do?
Then again, I don’t think Yema have appreciated quite the way other watches do?
Outside of Rolex, some Omega and real exotica, do any watches really appreciate these days?
Mine has.
It's neither Rolex, Omega or exotic.
[img] 
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Huh, odd formatting.
OK, there will always be some exceptions to the rule, and there's no way that was ever purchased with future value in mind! And it is one of the nicest of the genre, the proportions and design are just spot on.
I'm no fan of a panda type dial at the best of times but that Intramatic^ isn't even making a try for legibility as far as telling the time goes. It looks like it would be quite readable if you're just using the stopwatch though.
Any love for the humble CWC G10?
I think they're a handsome well proportioned field watch. They could use a little more humility in their pricing though, £199 for a 5 atm watch with £25 worth of quartz movement and an acrylic crystal doesn't make them much of a value proposition, IMO
Completely agree with you there, pricing is ridiculous for what they are, there’s no way I’d be paying what they’re currently selling for, this one was issued in 1997.
I used to have a Precista PRS18 that I bought new but some of the lume markings fell off after only 9 months of light wear, apparently that wasn’t covered by the guarantee though, unbelievable!
Then again, I don’t think Yema have appreciated quite the way other watches do?
Outside of Rolex, some Omega and real exotica, do any watches really appreciate these days?
Depends on the watch, it’s rarity, and collectibility. This is my Yema Rallygraf Super, it’s an actual Yema, from around 1969-70, when the company was still a family-owned French watchmaker. It has a Valjoux 7736 movement. Mario Andretti wore one when racing in Formula 1. I paid £50 for it new, one like it sold at auction in London two years ago for £3800.
@aphex_2k - that Spinnaker is a lovely thing! It’s beautifully clear and easy to read, and just nicely styled. Very taken with that, nice having a coin-edge bezel as well. Has it got a ceramic bezel insert? Can’t quite tell from the photo.
This is my Yema Rallygraf Super
I absolutely love the way that's worn in CZ, not my favourite style of watch but it looks just great with a bit of life applied to it. It must mean a lot that it's all happened during your ownership.
Absolutely, it was the first watch that I bought with my own earnings, bearing in mind I earned around £9.50/week back then, and that watch was £50! I wore it continuously until around 1985, when I bought my TAG Heuer Series 1000, and that became my main watch. The Yema developed a bit of a problem that was supposedly fixed, but it was never quite right, then someone in a local jewellers gave it to a retired watchmaker he knew, who sorted it out. A couple of years later, the mainspring went. Fortunately, I found a shop in Marlborough, Deacons & Son, who have in-house watchmakers, and they fixed it, serviced it and replaced the crystal, which had seen better days. That cost me £460!
A lot of money, but it’s part of my personal history, and I considered it worth the money.
Now that I’ve seen how much a similar example has fetched at auction, I feel it was a worthwhile investment, but that’s after the fact, I really like the way the watch looks, there are other variations, none of which I like, but it just appealed to me at the time, and it hasn’t really aged. The fact that it’s become collectible and worth money is just the icing on the top, which is really how it should be.
My TAG seems to be going the same way now, because of the James Bond Timothy Dalton connection, which is again just luck, I bought it ‘cos it’s an all-black diver with a luminous face, which was unique at the time. Still is, I think.
Looks like G -Shock are soon to release a Garmin Instinct competitor, yet despite being Solar the battery doesn't last as long unless you use it at a £15 G Shock for telling the time...
https://g-shock.co.uk/g-shock-sports
Seems like a fail?
Looks like G -Shock are soon to release a Garmin Instinct competitor, yet despite being Solar the battery doesn’t last as long unless you use it at a £15 G Shock for telling the time…
> https://g-shock.co.uk/g-shock-sports < Seems like a fail?
Funnily enough RC Rainmaker described the Instinct as "casio like" when it came out...
TBF if you use a garmin as a day to day watch with a GPS option you'll be lucky to get a week out of it, the Instinct will do longer so long as you don't use it for its intended purpose, gps spanks batteries...
I think you're right though and casio are trying to break into Garmin markets, but more by adding GPS and optical HR to the existing features already found on their G-shock and protrek lines.
TBH if it lives on your wrist all day soaking up charge and gets the odd couple of hours gps use, it will probably do quite well on battery life... Of course if you're doing 10 hour workouts every other day that spank the battery on existing GPS watches I wouldn't expect the H1000 to do much better.
As for £15 casio solar watches? They're not quite that cheap, but if you do want a basic solar powered casio they can be had from about £30 and up.
Will the H1000 be a "fail"? I doubt it, its got a lot of features for the price, I'd still not buy one before DC rainmaker reviews it though.
But the G-Shock fanbois will probably already have covered all the tooling costs with their pre-orders there's a reason they launched it under the G-Shock brand and not Protrek...
I want a Vostok. Has anyone bought one direct from Russia? Good prices and choice.
https://meranom.com/en/amphibian-classic/
Thinking of one without the date as I read there is no quick date change on them. So the date can only be changed by winding the time forwards. On flicking it back and forwards between 9 and 12.
I had a Komandirski from Russia via ebay it was sent promptly and was cheap, the Date change is annoying, the easiest way to change date its to roll the watch just past midnight, then back to about 21:00 and then over to midnight as this fools the movement into changing date.
But yep I have looked at at no-date Vostoks on and off.
Two of my three are from Komandirskie.com, one from eBay from Russia, but Meranom is fine too use too. Russian postage takes at least a month whichever seller one buys from.
There's an active forum at: https://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/#/forums/10?page=1
The 9pm / midnight date set isn't really any hassle for me.
NB,a no date face will still have the date in the workings
A no date version it will be. Just because OCD about date being correct
I put my Alkin (no date) on this morning after not wearing it for a week and it took about 30 seconds to give it a few winds to start it and set the time. Don't fancy winding a date manually a fortnight forward as well. No huge deal but no need to have a date with a Vostok if there is the option to avoid.
TBH if it lives on your wrist all day soaking up charge and gets the odd couple of hours gps use, it will probably do quite well on battery life… Of course if you’re doing 10 hour workouts every other day that spank the battery on existing GPS watches I wouldn’t expect the H1000 to do much better.
Sure, maybe the mistake is on the pre release web text, which doesn't really make clearly what "time only" constitutes. If that really is 12 months of sitting on my wrist with a single charge + average solar input, then great but its also measuring Barommetric pressure, pulse etc in the background - or does "Time only" switch all that off? what I'd like to know is:
a) Is Time only actually time only there for = 12months
b) Is "normal" with time & other stats and whats the average charge plus solar - which in my mind must equal the Instincts 2 weeks at least
c) GPS mode granted a few hours use is acceptable as commented.
Either I missed it or b) is missing and thats the vital metric for most people. b) to me must be an Instinct beater by way of using the solar to extend beyond a standard 2 week battery life.
Go dateless. I've seen the rolling it back and forward past midnight trick mentioned a couple of times online. Now I'm no watchmaker, but as an Engineer I think forcing a delicate little mechanism the wrong way past a jump change like that is a really bad idea and liable to damage something. Mine has a date, I just put up with it being wrong. I'd prefer it to be correct, but it's the lesser of two evils in my book.
Now I’m no watchmaker, but as an Engineer I think forcing a delicate little mechanism the wrong way past a jump change like that is a really bad idea and liable to damage something
As an Engineer how do you feel about turning the delicate little mechanism the correct way but really quickly by using an electric screwdriver secured to the crown by a blob of blutack?
TBH Kryton I think you might be expecting a bit much from tough solar as a power source for all of those features.
From what I can see essentially you have a pretty good outdoorsy watch more or less like the Protrek PRG-240; a triple sensor 'ABC' (Altimeter/Barometer/Compass) watch with the full compliment of digital watch features you would want, world time, chromo, timer, multiple alarms that runs happily off of sunshine. And then they've gone and stuck some power hungry GPS and HR bits on too which if you want to use them frequently, yes you will almost certainly have to plug it into a USB charger every few days.
That's pretty much the same deal as Garmins existing products... So it's no worse, but it might be slightly better, partly because its not a Garmin, partly because that tough solar module will at least keep it telling time when you're nowhere near a plug socket...
As an Engineer how do you feel about turning the delicate little mechanism the correct way but really quickly by using an electric screwdriver secured to the crown by a blob of blutack?
I feel that's very inventive. 😁 (and I'd not do that either).
edit - I've just re-read my post and the 'as an engineer' bit was a bit preposterous eh? Should have said somthing about displaying a bit of mechanical sympathy or something.
Garmin do solar too on the Fenix range, but it's a top up rather than sole power source.
My Fenix 6x Pro (non solar) does 21 days between charges if I don't use the GPS or HR function.
Date changing vostoks?
As an engineer myself (but not a watchmaker) It's fine, all you're doing is cycling a mechanism whichever way you do it, one method takes 4 times longer and if I'm trying to adjust 30 odd days, I'll take the shorter route thanks.
We're not talking about the finest Swiss movement here, it's an agricultural bit of soviet era clunkiness, a new movement is about £20ish. In a pinch you can cannibalise it to fix your AK47 probably... It'll be fine...
Just got hold of an original Seiko SKX031/33, 3 o'clock crown as opposed to the SKX007/9 and slightly smaller case.
Already been looking at some mods, bezel, insert and hands.
https://flic.kr/p/2iNgSKs
Doesn't need modding! Looks the biz as is.
I feel that’s very inventive. 😁 (and I’d not do that either)
Well, I did say a screwdriver rather than a drill, I'm not a complete animal. Though TBH (and in spite of their affordability) a komandirskie is one of the last watches I'd try that out on, mine has the wobbliest crown ever and needs a constant gentle outward pressure when winding to stop it screwing back in.
I’ve just re-read my post and the ‘as an engineer’ bit was a bit preposterous eh?
Preposterous is a bit strong, I enjoyed the way you capitalised "Engineer" though!
