[Closed] "Warning Cyclist" I might turn left !

not seen one but they might (probably won't) stop cyclists from undertaking....always an accident waiting to happen and Mr white van man can't really be blamed. However, if it means he'll overtake then turn left it's all bad.

I've seen them on concrete lorries, and it seems fair enough to me as you shouldn't be undertaking anyway.

I have seen it on big lorries but it tends to say not to go up the left hand side a bit likt the no entry and pass on the right sign on the spray flaps on continetal lorries

Not supposed to undertake !

Well we all do, dont we? (except approaching a junction)

I think I might carry a sticker that says "warning, I might sue if knocked off"...........

Well we all do, dont we? (except approaching a junction)

that's probably when the van will turn left

Don't see a problem? Some people do need telling, especially with vehicles that might have large blind spots.

I very rarley overtake on the right, its a bit* like riding into oncoming traffic. The alternative is to undertake, wait, or go on the footpath.

*just

you should not undertake, unless you're happy to be killed just to pass a car which may well go past you again in about 5 minutes! ride in the road not in the gutter!

I think the point is that some of the bigger lorries (and probably Plumb Centre's vans) have crap rearwards visibility, so you might try and undertake, thinking they've seen you, when in fact they haven't.

I very much doubt having a sticker on the back of a van is going to absolve them of driving dangerously - it'd have to be a "baby on board" one for that to apply. 😉

To be fair, I think it's a good idea actually - there are plenty of people who cycle around now who don't have great road sense (yet, hopefully) for whom this sticker might make them think twice. It definitely doesn't absolve the driver of any responisbility in not turning left onto a rider right after overtaking though.

My point is that all urban trained cylists know very well when its safe to undertake and do so regularly in slow or stationary traffic but cars and lorries dont like it because we are getting through quicker than they are.
we have all been squeezed out and had to jump to the pavement, no problem.

A sticker sort of absolves the van driver from all obligation and he will now turn left even if he can see you up the inside....."its your fault didnt you see the sticker ? "

not seen one but they might (probably won't) stop cyclists from undertaking.

do people actually do that? Maybe the roads are wider where you are but you'd never do that here because you'd be crushed against railings/forced onto the pavement

I'm sure I posted something about this about 1 year ago..

hmm.. must disagree with MrNutt here, if it wasn't for undertaking there wouldn't be much point in me commuting by bike, it would take too long.

It's not actually safe to use 90% of the country's cycle paths if its not safe to undertake.

i never undertake.

if you dont have the balls to face oncoming traffic, you dont deserve to go in front of the vehicle

getting yourself wedged down the inside of a line of traffic might have very bad consequences. ignore 'cycle paths' that put you there, its your road too, just be prepared to keep yourself left when the vehicle behind wants to overtake.

....."its your fault didnt you see the sticker ? "

all urban trained cylists know very well when its safe to undertake

In the past 4 years there's been 5 women cyclists killed nearby to me after funnelling up the inside of lorries. I think its a good idea if it just causes people to think a bit - obviously one hopes that there's also a big sign inside the van reading "WATCH OUT FOR CYCLISTS" but that might be pushing it a bit too far.

Seems a fair enough warning don't see it as cop out just a warning, after all you may not see his indicator if your along side.

Saw one the other day and thought it was a stupid sign. 'Course it could turn left, or right, or go straight on, or perhaps even go backwards.

Isn't that what vehicles do?

Too many stupid signs in this country. It's another indication of the nanny state in which we live.

i think the issue should be why is a lorry designed with a ****in great blind spot?!?!?

i tell a lie, the only queue of cars you may undertake is a queue turning right, when you are going straight on.

terry, if you think being "squeezed out" is "no problem".........

because its designed to haul goods, rather than second guess idiot cyclists with a death wish?

[i]i think the issue should be why is a lorry designed with a ****in great blind spot?!?!? [/i]

Because we don't have 360 vision.

having seen the aftermath of a car undertaking an indicating HGV, anything that makes people think before acting is a step forward.

if you dont have the balls to face oncoming traffic, you dont deserve to go in front of the vehicle

And if you haven't killed a pig with your bare hands, you shouldn't be eating bacon.

Van driver is right it is wrong to undertyake but...

... most drivers do WTFTL so putting a sign on a van is a bit rich really.

RANT
New cycle lane added to a busy road I use to commute on, two lanes as it approaches a set of traffic lights at the top of the hill. It's legal to undertake as it's a cycle lane BUT you can't because all the cars are half in it because they don't want their offside wing mirrors hit by the second lane of traffic. Pointless expense and no enforement.

RANT OVER

I go with julianA......a sign does not/will not inprove safety. there is so much visual imput as we go a long and a 4x4inch sticker aint going do anything.

I undertake,always have done since my paper round days, my one golden rule is that there must be an escape option to my left......I never undertake where there are only railings/walls on my left with nowhere to go.

Same old colnclusion then,,,,,,,its safer on the pavement.....so I need a sticker for my rucksack that warns walkers that i might turn left.

cyclepaths are one thing, they are clearly designated "cycles only" areas, but filtering up the inside is, in my opinion "dangerous and stupid", if you must filter do it as a motorbike would, after all you have AS MUCH room as a motorbike.

how ould you feel if a motorbike or scooter filtered past you on the left?

It's legal to "undertake" if the queue of traffic is moving at less than 10MPH. It's also perfectly safe if done with care.

[i]if you dont have the balls to face oncoming traffic, you dont deserve to go in front of the vehicle

getting yourself wedged down the inside of a line of traffic might have very bad consequences. ignore 'cycle paths' that put you there, its your road too,
[/i]

and if you don't have the balls to undertake you shouldn't be cycling.

I don't mean this, but its about as ridiculous as what you said.

Engage brain before typing mate. Most cycle paths put you there.
What would you do here if there is slow moving traffic? Sit behind it? FFs.

[img] [/img]

That's a cycle lane, not a cycle path 🙂

MrNutt - you don't cycle in London do you? Motorbikes and scooters/mopeds go up the inside of traffic, along cycle lanes, sit in the advanced box all the time. A day when you don't find a scooter attempting to force past you in a cycle lane is a day to remember.

I'm glad someone on here has finally said that it isn't wrong to undertake. Undertaking is allowed if done cautiously in slow moving traffic. The vehicle turning left needs to make sure that it's near side is free, by checking it's mirror and doing a shoulder check. In the case of vans and lorry's they should have an additional mirror which many are being fitted with.

Having said that, I try to avoid undertaking as I find it far more dangerous than overtaking. Although I'll be facing on coming traffic, I can see exactly what this traffic is doing and I'm more in control.

I see some lorries with similar signs and I always think who would be so stupid to put themselves in such a spot, but people do.

Do you guys have any idea how many cyclists are killed by HGVs turning left? I don't have the figures to hand but if memory serves it was something like 10 last year in London alone.

If you're coming up to a junction and there's a lorry there don't undertake. Just don't. Please.

Anything that stops unwary cyclists from getting killed has got to be a good thing.

Seems reasonable on the van. We all (apart from the sainted few) pass on the left in busy traffic, just because we're there doesn't mean the driver saw us. I see the sign as a heads up "this van may be driven by someone who doesn't indicate" i don't think it's meant to absolve the driver of all sins.

If you undertake then you must be awake to all possibilities

The van might turn left tho - the sign's correct.

Apparently some people need reminding of the fact.

I undertake stationary traffic. When it starts to move I find myself a gap between cars (not along side one) and slot in, taking my place in the now slowly moving queue. When it speeds up then cars can pass me if there's room.

Anyone undertaking approaching a left turning is a nutter and clearly needs a sign to remind them how dangerous it is.

I don't see a problem with it. At least 'plumb centre' are actually recognising the fact that cyclists are on the road. Although if the van is turning left then I presume it will be indicating so you wouldn't be daft enough to pass on the inside anyway.

I'm always very careful of passing anything on the left and don't undertake moving traffic on the inside.

I think its Ok for the vans to display a sign, the drivers might think about cyclists a bit more TBH, they are not all morons.

True enough about where and when to undertake, goign past lorries approaching junctions is asking for a literal understanding of Darwinism.

I think it is now a legal requirement on certain sizes of lorry to have the sign plus blindspot mirrors fitted. This applies to new vehicles and is not retrospective.

Whether it is right or wrong to undertake, it is pretty stupid to do it approaching a left-hand junction to do it alongside a large vehicle.

If you're coming up to a junction and there's a lorry there don't undertake. Just don't. Please.

That's a given, and part of undertaking with care.

Whether I over- or under-take depends upon the road.

On one road in town the cars all drive more than a car width from the road, because the road's really wide and it saves them from having to weave in and out after pasing the occasional parked car. On that road, I undertake, with care.

On another road, the road is much narrower and there are more parked cars, so undertaking is almost impossible. On that one, there are very few cars coming in the other direction, so I just ride down the wrong side of the road, nipping back into the queue when it starts to move.

i undertake, but ALWAYS with great care, as ive come close to being taken out before,
when im turning left in my car, i dont check my left mirror to see if some nutter has come shooting up on the inside, i see it, as a cyclist, that its the cyclists responsibility to stay safe, because so many drivers dont seem to know we exist, and im fine with that.
in the same breath, i wont worry if some biffer in her 4x4 gets irrate because ive cut across her in a static traffic queue. im looking out for number 1 when im on the road.
the sign is just a reminder for you, and the blind spot on a wagons left hand side can be huge

People will disagree with this but this is what I find

In London if there is a queue of stationary traffic, cyclists tend to go down the left(undetake) and motorbikers the centre(overtake) and scooters tend to go any which way they please.

Personally I dont always like going down the center because often there'll be a motorcyclist coming right at you or behind you also trying to over take but obviously in some situations it makes more sense.

Anyhow I think alot of these deaths occur because people are filtering down the left but then the lights suddenly change and they have not managed to get far enough in front of the lorry for them to be seen and lorry turns into them.

I think that traffic lights need some kind of signal to suggest there about to change I realise this is why they go orange but its not long enough. Maybe even a count down so you can judge when it is safe to filter down the traffic.

Frankly this could quite also happen if the driver of a lorry was turning right as far a I can see. Especially if the driver was sat on the left.

I see that bs a sensible reminder not as a threat or warming. Not all cyclists have flawless road sense.

As with Olly - I undertake but I'm very VERY aware of the danger it puts me in. If traffic looks like it may move off soon I'll wait instead. IF theres someone signalling left I'll wait behind them unless the lights have only just changed to red. A wagon being at the front makes little difference to me as I'll usually either a) hang behind him because he fills the lane completely or b) get in front of him so he will see me, or turn left behind me. The point is being aware of what other people will do - assume no-one will look out for you and be hyper-vigilant but that doesnt stop you from undertaking in queueing traffic (or overtaking) so long as you make sure you dont get caught out. IF you do get caught out then its as much your fault as the other persons.

As a driver I personally wouldnt expect there to be someone in my left blindspot at a junction. Likewise as a cyclist I wouldnt BE in someones left blindspot as I know that as a driver I'd not be expecting someone there myself.

That's a given, and part of undertaking with care.

The trouble is that it isn't a given at all. Most cyclists have no idea how much danger they are putting themselves in by undertaking an HGV at a junction. Left-turning HGVs are the number one killer of cyclists in London - probably in the rest of the country.

Always, always, either hang back or go round the right-hand side.

I nearly always over take but then i don't live or ride in london which seems to have different attitudes(an observation not haveing a go at any one). when i over take i always keep one eye on the cars i am passing to see if the indicate (not that every one does mind) but i reason that most people at least look in the right hand mirror when turning right they never seem to check the left. I do find being on the left much mor intimidating as on the right i can chose wether to pass the car or wait but it is less easy to do thison the left i also find that some cars pull over to the left to let me pass on the right when they are going in slow moving traffic, mind you some cocks also pull over to the right to block you and this also happens to some motorbikes ( I suspect that they are the same people who have to get past you to join the que of slow moving cars 10 yards in front).

sorry DezB didnt mean to question your manhood, more i was trying to convey the idea that many people riding on roads feel they should stay near the pavement where they are 'safe', yet this can be the least safe place to be at times.

regarding your pic, i cannot say until i see how the traffic deals with it - if the lane is kept free/clean i would obviously use it. If it is regularly encroached by traffic/parked cars, i would overtake.

Anyhow I think alot of these deaths occur because people are filtering down the left but then the lights suddenly change and they have not managed to get far enough in front of the lorry for them to be seen and lorry turns into them.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can't see them.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can't see them.

Oh bollocks, what complete crap.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece

Undertaking lorries is deathly unless they are stopped and you can get past quickly. The worst is if the pavement has a fence on the roadside so you have nowhere to escape.

I think the stickers are a good idea, lots of cyclists out there are not clued up to the risks.

Btw I prefer overtaking but will undertake if there's plenty of room - undertaking runs a greater risk of getting doored too.

So let me get this right Mike, we are now saying undertake lorries and ignore red lights. Right off to try that now.

The stickers/signs are a good idea, along with the "if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you" ones

If you value your life, you don't ever, EVER undertake an HGV. Cars fine, HGV's never.

I periodically drive 7.5T trucks. The rearward visibility is terrible, even with the so called "blind spot mirrors" (remeber the left hand wingmirror is about 8' away from the driver). The only accident I've had (touches wood) was when i drove a truck over the front of a Merc A-class that tried to undertake me when I was indicating to change lanes in a gyratory system. Literally the first I knew of it was the crunch as the bonnet went behind the front wheel. I still couldn't see anything in the mirror. A cyclist would have been killed. Articulated vehicles are even worse. They literally have to commit to tight manouvres blind - as soon as the trailer is at an angle to the cab, the mirrors just show the side of the trailer.

There are a LOT of cyclists (and drivers) who have never sat in the cab of an HGV and realised how little you can see. There are a lot of cyclist who have all the road sense of a freshly laid dog turd. That's how people get killed and why they bother with the signs.

So let me get this right Mike, we are now saying undertake lorries and ignore red lights. Right off to try that now.

Can you show me where I wrote that?

If you value your life, you don't ever, EVER undertake an HGV. Cars fine, HGV's never.

Never?

"Warning Cyclist- I might turn left".

So they can overtake us and immediately turn left directly in front. Of course when it happened to me, I got knocked off because they had no warning sticker. Doh!

That's all right now then.

the gospel according to Olly: Under taking

roll up the inside at the lights, slowly enough to drop anchor when someone opens a door on you, and with one eye on each wing mirror, one on each set of brake lights, one eye on the traffic lights for the queue you are in, one eye on the lights of the currently moving traffic (crossing the junction for instance), one eye on pedestrians, one eye looking out for other cyclists and mopeds.

IF youve got that covered, then you stand a good chance of survivial
if the lights flip before you get to the front of the queue, as the car in front of you moves off, but the car on your right pauses for a moment, take the space created and keep it, taking a central lane position, until you feel safe enough to choose to let the car behind you pass.
Keeping dominant control of the traffic with your road position works wonders.
i dont think i would ever undertake a lorry at the front of the queue myself, ide rather get behind it.

Home time!! (or at least time to slip off to the toilets to put on my riding home in the filth attire)

You have loads of eyes Olly.

Are you talking about undertaking, or filtering down the left?

Do you even know what you are arguing about?

Olly is a spider and I claim my £5.

I think they found that most of the deaths were women. Men will filter past the queue, ignore the stop line and either run the red light or stop ahead of the stop line. Women filter past and then stop before the line, right where the HGV driver can't see them.

Mike

Maybe you should actually read the Times article you link to. It does [i]not[/i] say that the majority of deaths involved women. It says that the HGVs were responsible for 86 per cent of deaths of women cyclists (as compared to 47 per cent of men). Not the same thing at all. So as men make up the majority of cyclists in London, the majority of deaths involving HGVs were involving male cyclists.

To try to deduce from this that undertaking HGVs is safe provided that you then cross the stop line is dangerous and stupid. As a college lecturer I would have thought you would be able to spot the flawed logic..

I'm sorry to get angry about this but on the routes I regularly ride around London there are places where 4 cyclists have died. For me this isn't an academic discussion.

I really don't care if you put your own life at risk but somebody out there might actually thing you know what you are talking about and follow your advice - and pay the price. Stick to cheap shots at naked estate agents.

Undertaking HGvs at left-hand junctions is dangerous. DON'T DO IT - EVER. No matter how clever and invulnerable you think you are.

Undertaking trucks is only dangerous if you let it be. Be aware and its fine. Its all about awareness and appreciation of hazards and those stickers may just help.

go past slowly watching the lights. Get infront of the truck so the driver can see you. If the lights change as you are alongside stop and be prepared to bail - do not ride off alongside a moving truck - that is where the danger is. If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

Some of you guys need to learn a bit about riding.

OK, the point I was making is that the sticker makes no difference......
Its like "objects in this mirror may appear closer". "this coffee could be hot" "may contain nuts"......

To survive on a bike? As many have said, get away from the killing zone, at lights i sometime get onto the pavement, become a pedestrian for a few secs then back on the road. I frequently "look" at drivers and try to make "eye contact" (dont wear sunglasses) undertake- yes, overtake-yes. get deliberately in the middle - yes. jump red lights -yes (sometimes) one way streets- yes (sometimes)

How do you get others to be safe, it aint done by rules and warning signs.

A cyclist rode up the gap you see in the mirror then squeezed between the car and the moving truck. I wasn't quick enough to catch him in the shot. [img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ytz6h1&outx=480&quality=70 [/img]
A LGV can edge towards the kerb for various reasons, just be careful you're not there if it does.

As a london messenger of 3 1/2 years and not one single accident, do NOT piss about with hgvs, if its ahead, let it go, whats it gonna save you time wise eh? Give them as much space as they need and stay where you can be seen. Having spoken to the police on this matter more than once, even experienced riders have thought ahh that'll be ok.....nah afraid not sunshine....don't even think about it, stay out of their way and stay in one piece....oh and obtain the 6th sense, knowing what a vehicle will do before it does it...they all have body language, know how to read it, it saves me shit everyday or so.

Never ever undertake an HGV, it's simply not worth the few seconds you think you'll gain.

[url= http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/ ]
John Franklin Cycling Techniques for Adults and Children. (Cyclecraft)[/url]If anybody is interested this book isan excellent read.

Undertaking - isn't that when they put you in a box?

It's all about riding for self preservation. Times you do, times you don't. If you're still alive, then you've been guessing right.

Them that haven't guessed right won't be posting their experiences on this forum.

If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

yes i will undertake but try to establish a position in a gap where driver behind can see me - accept that i'm there - never undertake trucks or vans

very strange experience last year when i was on A road into Sheffield - 2 lanes regular jam and traffic moving at 5mph - 10mph not actually stopped - moving to middle is bad cos there is a right turn lane coming up with tail backs and so lots of lane switching - anyhow am up behind a skip truck and sitting there and a guy in a fluro "bikeability instructor" vest just pedals past and undertakes the skip truck - this with left turn traffic lights and plenty of other turnings in next 100yards

as to the original post can only hope the sticker was well intentioned rather than FU

A racer - you miss my point. If you get infront of them then then yes you are the line of fire - but the driver can see you and you can pull away infront of the truck as the lights change. Its when you are alongside the truck that you are in danger. If you are filtering up the inside and the lights change when you ar halfway along the truck and you stop as the truck moves off you will be behind the line at the junction thus not in the area where the trucks rear wheels go. The danger comes if the truck moves off while you are still alongside and you don't stop. so the truck turns left as you cross the line f the junction - thats when you get crushed.

Being alongside an HGV is pretty risky even in a car, cos of how long they are. I never pull alongside one at a multi lane roundabout if I can help it.

I think those signs are at worst harmless and at best a very good idea. Like most on here, I think I'm fairly safe, concentrate very hard to stay that way and have a decade's experience of riding on the roads. The sign adds nothing to my safety. For the huge numbers of apparently inexperienced people on the road in London in the last couple of years, lessons about the dangers of messing with HGVs do not seem to be sinking in. If the sign reminds a couple of people to be careful on the inside of the truck then I am grateful to the Plumb Centre for making the effort to put it there.

🙂

Maybe you should actually read the Times article you link to...

Andym, I used the words "I think" at the beginning for a reason, as I was just saying something from memory. It was only after you eloquently refuted by argument ("Oh bollocks, what complete crap.") that I searched for the article. The point I was making was that attitude and road-placement make a big difference to how safe it is to undertake any traffic, which is backed up by that article.

somebody out there might actually thing you know what you are talking about and follow your advice - and pay the price

My advice is on an internet forum. I'd hope the take it in the same manner they'd take any advice on here. Given that it's on a thread in which the pros and cons are discussed, I'm sure they'll be safe.

Stick to cheap shots at naked estate agents.

Ooh, cutting.

Undertaking HGvs at left-hand junctions is dangerous. DON'T DO IT - EVER. No matter how clever and invulnerable you think you are.

Ah, you see I've never recommended anyone do that. I've said it's fine to "undertake" if done sensibly and making sure you can get past while the HGV (or whatever vehicle) is still stationary. Right on a left-turn would be a silly place to do it though, just as overtaking near any junction is dangerous.

im no HGV, (im a 206) but sitting in the left lane of three earlier today (one left, one straight on and one right) a young lady tootles up beside me on my left, at the lights.

i didnt want to pressure her around the corner, so gave her some room (i try to be helpful to cyclists when im driving) and sure enough she tootles straight on.
if ide tried to get ahead of her on the left turn, as so many people do, i would have taken her out good and proper.

hope her lucky streak continues, and when it runs out she learns a lesson without a trip to A&E

TandemJeremy - Member
Undertaking trucks is only dangerous if you let it be. Be aware and its fine. Its all about awareness and appreciation of hazards and those stickers may just help.

go past slowly watching the lights. Get infront of the truck so the driver can see you. If the lights change as you are alongside stop and be prepared to bail - do not ride off alongside a moving truck - that is where the danger is. If one of you is stationary then there is no danger. None. If the truck starts to move and you stop you will be behind the junction still so even if he turns left without indicating you will still be totally safe as you are not in the line of his wheels.

Some of you guys need to learn a bit about riding.

Worth quoting as TJ has it totally correct.

By the way, I was nearly taken out by a lorry which started to overtake me at a totally inappropriate place this morning. As he moved back over into "his lane" he hadn't passed me properly and the last few feet of his lorry (like a massive flat-bed) very nearly took me out. Tosser.
What sign should I have had on my back? "Warning may be moving at more than 5mph"?!
There are many many more dangers out there than this undertaking lark. Be aware of them all and you'll be ok.