[Closed] Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

If we stopped ellecting 'kippers as MEPs who have the worst attendency rating and among the highest expenses claims, maybe we'd have a better voice in Europe, it was UKIP and Tory MEPs who voted against greater transparency for tax havens last year after all.

As for the economy.... Well we've had the government telling us endlessly that is the most important thing , so obvs....

But it's not just about €$£, in my line of work; cancer research I know we benefit hugely being able to employ European researchers easily and receive a lot of funding from EU grants and work on some brilliant EU collaborations.
Why anyone would want to damage that is beyond me.

Especially over some nebulous concept like sovreignity, that day to day actually means sweet FA to anyone but gets some very upset

I alsi think that closer integration with Europe could be brilliant, action to clamp down on tax avoidance, A proper Europe wide FBI seems by far the best way to deal with terrorism, people smuggling, fraud, drug trafficking etc etc

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

But on a serious note, it (exit) would affect funding in countries like Wales which were and are being heartily shafted by the Tories.

let's not forget George Osbournes Northern Powerhouse. largely floating on an ocean current of European money, poured into areas like south yorkshire - identified as some of the most bollocksed in Europe.

I like the French, Germans, Spanish, Italians etc. We can learn a lot from them and their culture, and will only benefit from closer ties. Diversity is a wonderful thing, and I completely embrace it. I'd be happy for other countries like Turkey to join too. We could help them sort out their human rights issues and conversely they could help us deal with the Islamaphobia problem.

identified as some of the most bollocksed in Europe.

pondo - Member

"Because I don't vote for those making decisions in europe"

Only yourself to blame on that front, quite happy to vote in elections for MEPs myself.

proportional representation too, innit?

more democratic than the good old British system...

jambalaya - Member

You haven't spent much time in Eastern Europe I gather

what's your point? the european development funds identified lots of areas in Britain as in need of help, so they turned on the financial taps. bloody great taps they were too.

this is what the tories did to south Yorkshire:

[img] [/img]

then the EDF money came along:

[img] [/img]

but, that's about money, so not really applicable to this thread...

Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.

Go to the migration observatory website, I can't give you a full breakdown in a forum post. But it completely refutes most of what you say, and without an agenda.

I love the EU for many reasons other than the economy. It's brought big companies like Nissan and Honda to the UK to bring jobs to places where they were lost, it's put money into revitalising rural areas like mid Wales and the Hebrides, it's made things cheaper as I can buy from the whole of Europe with no import duty, it's made it easier for me to go on holiday, it's improved the quality of the beaches and environment, it's improved funding for science (including research into medicines) and opened up an entire continent of jobs.

That and the big one- I've lived my entire life with peace in Europe. That's worth more than anything.

A proper Europe wide FBI seems by far the best way to deal with terrorism, people smuggling, fraud, drug trafficking etc etc

We should set one up. The STWEuroBI. Bike thefts across the continent solved.

I'm not taking this seriously am I?

Ignore the haters. Rule Britannia, Britannia rule ...

... and there you have it in a nutshell.

As I said. 1950... 🙄

munrobiker - Member
Stats are wonderful, but until you provide a full breakdown regarding factors used in the calculation it does not add much weight.
Go to the migration observatory website, I can't give you a full breakdown in a forum post. But it completely refutes most of what you say, and without an agenda.

I love the EU for many reasons other than the economy. It's brought big companies like Nissan and Honda to the UK to bring jobs to places where they were lost, it's put money into revitalising rural areas like mid Wales and the Hebrides, it's made things cheaper as I can buy from the whole of Europe with no import duty, it's made it easier for me to go on holiday, it's improved the quality of the beaches and environment, it's improved funding for science (including research into medicines) and opened up an entire continent of jobs.

That and the big one- I've lived my entire life with peace in Europe. That's worth more than anything

Great stuff. Come on folk, keep going. More positive posts for Europe.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

Are we in the UK actually forced into ever closer integration?

The exiters seem to assume that even if everything goes to shit no rules will ever change. Given that no-one involved wants to see everything going to shit, this seems rather unlikely, no?

Greater integration is inevitable. Nation states will soon become irrelevant. NO BORDERS *FIST*

Tighter integration - as in working together, as a team.

Maybe it's because I'm an old rugby forward, but tighter integration in your pack (particularly in the scrums) was always desirable and no one thought the were giving anything up by trying to achieve it. And it didn't prevent individuality either.

But then I also got a buzz out of making sure the team won. Stomping off on my own to attempt to score tries was fine, and one on one it might well come off, but you very rarely beat the entire opposition team that way and it almost never won games.

Is anyone seeing an analogy forming.

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

Not here. Am all for greater integration.

Most of the arguments posed in support of Brexit that aren't about immigration tend to be of the "But we're British! Don't want foreigners telling us what to do" ilk.

Scenario: Pro-Brexit England ensures that the UK votes for Brexit. Largely pro-EU Scotland votes for devolution and joins the EU.

Result - EU member state bordering England with no border controls in place, plus the possibility of tariffs on English goods and services sold over the border.

Scenario two: A vote for Brexit happens and the UK leaves the EU. A Boris/IDS led post-Brexit Tory government decides that now they've carte blanche to do as they please in order to appease business' desire to cut "red tape". They cut statutory pay and block any attempts to force parity with the rest of Europe [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/the-timeline-maternity-leave-2113236.html ]just like they did in the 1980s.[/url]

Scenario three:

UK votes for Brexit, UK opts in to TTIP. Post Brexit leadership of Boris/IDS decides to pre-empt US corporate action against NHS and subsequently privatises health service.

All of those scenarios are somewhat dystopic, given - and pardon me for expressing my personal views here - I don't trust Tories one little bit. Two of those post Brexit scenarios result in organisations other than the government influencing policy.

And who funds the IMF and World Bank? Leaving the EU doesn't get you off the hook as easily as some would suggest!!

IFS published a report today showing 48.5% of working people in the UK pay no tax at all

I think this may have referred to Income Tax.

Considerably less than 50% of government recipts are from income tax in fact the figure is approx. 31%.
indirect taxation (consumption and environmental) is a similar proportion-VAT, insurance premium tax, vehicle excise duty, fuel duty etc. etc. was 33% of recipts in the last financial year

So anyone who buys good or services in this country contributes taxes, so to say those on the minumum wage pay no tax is a fallacy. Indeed as a percentage of low wage earners income indirect taxation is very significant

Source:

Not here. Am all for greater integration.

Talk to the sceptics.

I have done, I've listened. But Brexit is not for me.

Give me your vision as to what a unified europe would look like. Oh, and one that addresses the current woes of the existing system.

I've already given my three visions of post Brexit Britain, all of which are feasible given the evidence. On balance, I prefer to be with warts and all EU.

It's called personal choice, it's why we've a referendum, not a directive.

Talk to the sceptics. Give me your vision as to what a unified europe would look like. Oh, and one that addresses the current woes of the existing system.

But immigrants!

Of which, I will soon be one... from the "European" point of view.

Mustaches, pipes and Dreadnoughts!

Of which, I will soon be one... from the "European" point of view.

Don't steal their jobs but some how not contribute.

I've already given my three visions of post Brexit Britain, all of which are feasible given the evidence.

I think you have a different definition of feasible to most people.

But without immigrants and Europeans who would the Daily ("hurrah for the blackshirts") Mail get upset with?

It would be chaos.

Oh God! Now you've done it, don't mention the Daily Mail in front of Mefty. 🙂

Have you read any of the preceding eleven posts on the page above yours?

But without immigrants and Europeans who would the Daily ("hurrah for the blackshirts") Mail get upset with?

Junior Dr's, NHS, Cancer and anyone who is a bit different.

A single super state with a single fiscal policy, common healthcare and welfare. Countries within said super state are no longer referred to by their native name.

Hang on - you think that's what the EU wants? You'd have a hell of a lot of objection to that from plenty of countries, not just the UK.

Countries within said super state are no longer referred to by their native name.

You mean like no one talks about Texans and Californians? Why does that even matter anyway? If it were that important, why do people from the midlands not describe themselves as Mercians? Why don't the French call themselves Gauls? States, countries, regions, cities all occasionally change names. Why get hung up on it?

Yes, however, I didn't see any specific detail. I want to understand this further. A single super state with a single fiscal policy, common healthcare and welfare. Countries within said super state are no longer referred to by their native name.

I'm all ears. Closer integration is being bandered around on this forum by those wanting to remain. The current system for those already 'closely' integrated is breaking apart. Mass unemployment, rise of the far right in some european countries.

How will the UK being more closely integrated solve the current issues. The EU needs radical reform. And you either need to become more of a single european state OR you need to unravel some of the current flaws.

Please don't compare the current the EU to that of states in the US. From a cultural perspective the states are much closer than each of the member states in the eu. And before you ask, I have spent a far amount of time in many states.

zippykona - Member
I'm on holiday in a non EU country. In the evening to for the restaurant the gents have to wear a collar, trousers and enclosed shoes. I really object to wearing shoes on a tropical island in 90 degree heat. The ladies don't have to. In an EU country I would have worn flip flops and moaned about discrimination with the full weight of the ECHR behind me.
Out here it is you want to eat , you wear your shoes.

I think it was a monumental mess up to give the common man a vote on something so important. I asked my father in law (who is ignorant) which way he'd be voting and he said out. I asked why and he said because he hates the French! This is what we're up against and why the common man cannot be trusted to make a decent informed and conscientious decision.

I'm a remainer, and I'm interested in much more than economics.

I think that people are better with broader minds. People broaden their minds by broadening their experiences. EU citizens can take jobs in other countries; this is a huge opportunity for all of us to live, work and make friends around Europe. I've known and worked with people from all over Europe, some of whom are my good friends, and this has enriched my life enormously. I don't want this taken away. Similarly, some of these friends have themselves worked all over Europe and many have now settled in other countries.

I have a Swedish friend who I worked with in Finland, he then moved to Austria to work with a mutual Hungarian friend, he's now married an Austrian and has a family.

The more we move around Europe, the more we begin to understand other nations and their citizens, the more friends we make, and the more we can get on with living, working, making friends, travelling, learning and having a good time; instead of moaning about foreigners. This is a good thing, IMO.

you think that's what the EU wants?

See stats on immigrations for further evidence of their "thinking"

rise of the far right in some european countries.

The attraction of the right is NOT going to be diminished by preventing social integration and strengthening borders now is it? FFS.

The EU will comprise of three groups of members

1. A core group of largely N European countries who will have common monetary and fiscal policies and a high level of political union. Despite not qualifying on economic grounds France will be a member of this core group since they cook the best dinners and have very fine wine.

2. A second group of largely S European countries who will have either (1) a separate common currency, €-lite or (2) more likely newly issued domestic currency. Their policies will shadow those of the core group, but exchange rate flexibility will provide them with additional economic options rather than the crude policy of wage deflation and/or unemployment and social unrest. They will vocally challenge the French claims re both food and wine with some justification

3. A third group of stronger, independent nations largely located on the geographic periphery of Europe. This will include the UK. They will be active trading partners with groups 2 and 3 and will enjoy the many obvious benefits of the free movement of goods and services, capital and people across one of the world's largest economic unions. They will not be members of the fixed-exchange rate system and will maintain(relatively)independent monetary and fiscal policies albeit with higher levels of cooperation regarding global tax co-ordination etc. They will also keep their status ex Schengen and maintain control over their own borders. They will enjoy political and legal independence while participating in the wider political debate covering the whole area. Their food will continue to improve although their wine will be recognised as promising but significantly over-priced

And Leicester City will win the 2017 Champions League beating Arsenal 5-3 on penalties at the Ataturk Stadium in Antalya.

Newly appointed Health Secretary Sajid David will have completed the full privatisation of the NHS, sold to an Indian private equity firm based in the Cayman Islands

Junior Dr's, NHS, Cancer and anyone who is a bit different.

You forgot bin snoopers..

I was with you right up until an English based team won on penalties

Point 3 is probably as good a guess as we will ever get to see[not sarcasm].

I think it was a monumental mess up to give the common man a vote on something so important

I can't be bothered with this one other than to remind Jamby that both he and his wife are immigrants and wherever they live at least one of them will be an immigrant.

The more we move around Europe, the more we begin to understand other nations and their citizens, the more friends we make, and the more we can get on with living, working, making friends, travelling, learning and having a good time; instead of moaning about foreigners. This is a good thing, IMO.

I like camping in France.

I like Daft Punk and Pizza, lets vote in. Also Belgian Beer.

I asked why and he said because he hates the French!

Sadly this is something I can confirm. Pretty much every outer I've come across belongs in two groups:

1. The willingly ignorant who display overt racism of the like above who are obsessed by immigrants.

2. Middle class educated people who dress up their underlying racism with arguments about sovereignty, nostalgia for the Empire, the effect on public services of uncontrolled migration. This group is also obsessed by immigrants.

Basically, there is an entire group of people out there who span all social classes who have swallowed the right wing lie that everything that is wrong in our society is the fault of foreigners. The only people I've come across who are pro-leave and can argue their case without displaying some form of racism are lefty fantasists who bang on about neo-liberal elites and how leaving Europe will bring us closer to a socialist/anarchist revolution.

The only people I've come across who are pro-leave and can argue their case without displaying some form of racism are lefty fantasists who bang on about neo-liberal elites and how leaving Europe will bring us closer to a socialist/anarchist revolution.

Wasn't Jezza Corbyn keen on leaving? 😉