[Closed] Vote "IN" camp only seem interested in economic outcome?

Rule Britannia, Britannia rule ...

The 1950's want their politics back....

Wasn't Jezza Corbyn keen on leaving?

Indeed, and even he abandoned his ideological fantasies when faced with the cold truth. Being what many would consider to be a lefty nutjob myself, I'm in broad agreement with the anti-capitalist arguments against the EU, however it makes no sense to leave if we remain a capitalist country. When the revolution comes, then we can think about leaving, but until then our best interests are served by keeping our noses in the trough.

Seems to me the more I look at it.... that I wouldn't vote to join now, so why vote to stay in? 😕

No decision yet though. 😐

Sadly this is something I can confirm. Pretty much every outer I've come across belongs in two groups:

1. The willingly ignorant who display overt racism of the like above who are obsessed by immigrants.

2. Middle class educated people who dress up their underlying racism with arguments about sovereignty, nostalgia for the Empire, the effect on public services of uncontrolled migration. This group is also obsessed by immigrants.

Basically, there is an entire group of people out there who span all social classes who have swallowed the right wing lie that everything that is wrong in our society is the fault of foreigners. The only people I've come across who are pro-leave and can argue their case without displaying some form of racism are lefty fantasists who bang on about neo-liberal elites and how leaving Europe will bring us closer to a socialist/anarchist revolution.

I think you are being a rather judgmental with your ignorant remark. have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, people are voting out for the simple reason they don't like what the european union stands for. Trying to say that everyone who is voting out is a closest racist is rather sad.

they don't like what the european union stands for

It stands for international cooperation. You don't like that?

that I wouldn't vote to join now

I presume in your rhetorical scenario you've adjusted your world view to ignore all the things we've benefitted from and made that decision based on those factors not on how things are now?

have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, people are voting out for the simple reason they don't like what the european union stands for.

I have considered that and discounted it pretty quickly when it became apparent that everyone I talked to who said they were voting out was obsessed by immigrants and came out with thinly veiled or overt racist rubbish. On the flip side I've come across a fair few self-confessed racists who are still voting in because they think economic risks alone are too high to leave.

Trying to say that everyone who is voting out is a closest racist is rather sad.

Isn't saying that. He said some are very open about with such claims as we shouldn't allow immigrants because they make no contributions.

I can't be bothered with this one other than to remind Jamby that both he and his wife are immigrants and wherever they live at least one of them will be an immigrant.

love the EU for many reasons other than the economy. It's brought big companies like Nissan and Honda to the UK to bring jobs to places where they were lost, it's put money into revitalising rural areas like mid Wales and the Hebrides, it's made things cheaper as I can buy from the whole of Europe with no import duty, it's made it easier for me to go on holiday, it's improved the quality of the beaches and environment, it's improved funding for science (including research into medicines) and opened up an entire continent of jobs.

There are arguments all ways. Things aren't just going to stop overnight, we will still do large amounts of business both import and export with the Europe

Trying to say that everyone who is voting out is a closest racist is rather sad.

Happy now?

Japanese make a lot of cars in the US

On the plus side at least you are not a racist 8)

JY on the cars 🙂

From Vote Leave today - should we help African Coffee growers or German processors ? Asymmetric Tariffs.

[i]My mother was from Sierra Leone so I hope you will forgive me being passionate about Africa. I'm disgusted that both the Common Agricultural Policy and EU trade tariffs keep African farmers poor and use your money to do it.

Continental European farmers are subsidised to produce more food than we can eat, distorting the global food market. African farmers cannot compete and are forced into subsistence farming, where one bad season brings economic ruin and a couple of bad seasons means starvation.

Tariffs mean that in 2014 the whole of Africa made just under $2.4 billion from coffee exports, while Germany made $3.8 billion. Germany made more money from coffee without growing a single bean than a whole continent which grows vast amounts.

Germany’s coffee producers need cheap, raw beans to make money, so there is no import tariff on green, unprocessed coffee. That’s why the vast bulk of African coffee exports are unprocessed. But there are import tariffs on processed coffee because it is in the processing, branding, packaging and marketing that Germany makes its money. These tariffs protect it from African competition. It’s the same story with cocoa. [/i]

How will the UK leaving affect EU tariffs?

When asked by Labour MP Rachel Reeves if he thought £4,300 was a “price worth paying” for Brexit, Banks said: “Well what I said was that if it was correct, even if it was correct it was a price worth paying to get back our own democracy. So in that sense that’s correct.

He added: “This isn’t about pounds and pence; this is about our democracy.”

Banks also admitted the pound would initially fall if the UK voted for Brexit, but “then it would recover – that’s the way of the markets”.

He went on to claim that any price rise in imported goods caused by the pound dropping would not be bad.

Banks said: “If you’re saying prices would domestically go up because the pound drops, yes. Is that a bad thing? No.”

😯

How will the UK leaving affect EU tariffs?

I agree and he missed the fact that many of you are complete morons with no ability to grasp the fact.

When asked by Labour MP Rachel Reeves if he thought £4,300 was a “price worth paying” for Brexit,

Short term pain / long term gain.

flanagaj - Member

Is that the 14 year ahead prediction that came out from the Treasury? If so, I think I wouldn't have even answered the question. Gideon can't get his figures right 12 months ahead let alone 14 years, so I wouldn't read too much into the numbers.

This is a completely fair point tbh.

Of course, the immigration forecasts in that same document are to be taken as gospel, according to the outies 😉

have considered that and discounted it pretty quickly when it became apparent that everyone I talked to who said they were voting out was obsessed by immigrants and came out with thinly veiled or overt racist rubbish.

That says more about the company you keep than owt else !

And 400 million years ago when the first fish crawled up on to the land, OUR LAND! with their barely developed lungs. Get back in the sea you finned ****.

One of my work colleagues is from Krakow and another is from Edinburgh. Both great guys, and I don't get this attitude of looking to help someone based on being born and bred here.

flanagaj - Member
When asked by Labour MP Rachel Reeves if he thought £4,300 was a “price worth paying” for Brexit,
Is that the 14 year ahead prediction that came out from the Treasury? If so, I think I wouldn't have even answered the question. Gideon can't get his figures right 12 months ahead let alone 14 years, so I wouldn't read too much into the numbers.
Short term pain / long term gain.

It's his answer that I thought was pertinent:

“Well what I said was that if it was correct, even if it was correct it was a price worth paying to get back our own democracy. So in that sense that’s correct."

That says more about the company you keep than owt else !

Ha! Actually 99% of my mates are all solidly in and think it's a no brainer. However I have to work with a whole load of people and have family members who are rather less informed or able to use their brains for rational thought.

Bugger me, what a depressing thread.

TL;DR:

In: "here's a lot of facts."

Out: "Yeah, but, being told what to do, and brown people."

One thing I do find very amusing is that as soon as you ask the in camp how they feel about tighter integration within the EU and more countries joining it goes very quiet.

That's just a blatant lie (as evidenced by responses on this very thread).

post-Brexit Tory government decides that now they've carte blanche to do as they please

That's the scariest thing of all.

I'm all ears.

No, that's the last thing you are. Sorry.

I wrote this on Facebook a little while ago. It's flawed but I think it's broadly relevant here:

So, Brexit.
Some UK citizens (hereafter known as "people" for brevity) want us to leave the EU.
Some people are twitchy about our relationship with the US and worry that they're pulling our strings and telling us what to do.
Some people want us to disassemble / abandon the Trident programme.
I can only assume that these people are labouring under the misapprehension that we still have a British Empire. We do not.
Without the US, without Europe, without our allies, without our friends, without a (probably lip service) nuclear deterrent and other armed forces, we are none of these things. We're a small, grey, rainy island in the middle of the Atlantic with delusions of grandeur.
We are the awkward lump between the US and Europe, we are ostensibly the Falkland Islands. We are Accrington when Blackburn Rovers play Burnley. We're a no-man's land; we are (generously) a DMZ. We have a pompous (how very British), vastly over-inflated sense of our own importance.
If you're in favour of Brexit (and ugh, kill me now for even typing that term) please understand. For all the political posturing around economy (because if you've learned nothing else from our current government, you *must* see that the bottom line is it's really all about the money), no-one really knows what will happen next. The "in" and "out" parties both cite the same reasons for doing / not doing what they want. It's a crystal ball exercise.
But no.
If we leave Europe, we turn our back on the one thing that's still sustaining our global credibility. We turn our back on our modern peer-group "empire" where we're a respected member rather than the dictator. And if that happens, then we are proper[rudeword]ed.

jambalaya - Member

How will the UK leaving affect EU tariffs?

It would not but we could remove tariffs on finished African Coffee allowing those countries to capture the value add rather than Germany. I have no issue paying a premium for a German car but coffee ?

Or wait for it, we could vote for MEP's who will turn up, do a job and get the policy sorted, do a decent trade deal with Africa and do it EU wide.
https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?docid=1C-fn6nSe21acP0xJIO1T1x0wohqfMYCQyJjbqdk#rows:id=1
Coming in at 44th in the Per Capita coffee consumption list means as usual with these things the impact of the UK going it alone is akin to pissing in the Ocean.

Vote? For MEPs? But wouldn't that mean... Us having a say?

Syntax error... Does not compute.... Syntax error.... etc

Without wishing to denigrate anyone who's posted, I've found on facebook that shouty idiots are likely to be Out than In.

Funny,the main argument from the Express/Mail for leaving is how much it costs to stay in the EU.

As for the NHS, what gets my goat is the ex-pats who bugger off to live in Europe because the UK is going down the pan, contribute chuff all to the service then "pop" back over when things go wrong to get fixed.

It stands for international cooperation. You don't like that?

Umm ... no.

[img] [/img]

Is DrJ about to go DrJHJ?

Is DrJ about to go DrJHJ?

Now you come to mention it, that does look suspiciously like a Masonic handshake.

But, less speculatively, I don't like the EU approach to trying to solve the migrant problem by kissing the ass of a dictator.

Do some research, Jimster. Very few "expats" use the NHS because you have to pay unless you have residency status, the waiting lists are long and the level of service is inferior to many countries expats live in. On the other hand Brits indulge in a great deal of medical tourism which pushes up the prices of say dental care in Hungary for Hungarians. 70 000 Brits took medical holidays abroad in 2008.

The cost to France of treating Brits is far higher than the cost to Britain of treating French (though there is a net profit to be made from British skiers even if they do spend half their holiday in hospital with a broken leg).

Edit to add the [url= https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/healthcare/help-with-health-costs/nhs-charges-for-people-from-abroad/ ]rules[/url]

This is actually quite easy when you start, and fun too.

Think of something you like, for example, I like bears.

So, I typed 'European bear project' into my favourite search engine, and now I can read about lots of groovy eu funded projects that are successfully helping the thing I like.

And It goes without saying that projects like the DINALP bear project are at their most effective if they're effective across national borders.

Try it, see what you can find.

Can we have a list of things politicians who want out say, and what they actually mean...

They say...
"Liberate from meddlesome red tape"

They mean...
"All those workers rights you got under the EU like maternity leave and no discrimination, and labour laws?...kiss them goodbye for a kick off

They mean...
"All those workers rights you got under the EU like maternity leave and no discrimination, and labour laws?...kiss them goodbye for a kick off

But unfortunately what the man on the Clapham omnibus hears is "no more nonsense about bendy bananas, or blowing up balloons, or whatever".

Return of our sovereignty

Those bastards in Europe wont let me violate the rights of the people i was elected to serve.

Ahwiles - I saw the bears, well one of them, a few years back in Cahors - off to its new home in the Pyrenees IIRC.

If we leave the following will happen -
1. The rich will get richer
2. The poor will get poorer
3. The middle (class) will believe what ever they are told.

So many people on the "Clapham omnibus" and numerous European consumer protection organisations (not to mention the British press) pointed out just how detrimental to farmers and consumers some of the "bendy banana" rules were and things got simplified in 2011. However if you want to sell a few apples from trees on your land, [url= http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32011R0543&from=en ]this applies to you.[/url]

Eurocrats don't do "simple", "easily understood" or "common sense". Euro legislation is a mess, with the greedy and corrupt ready to exploit every well-meaning but badly thought out aid package, incentive or compensation created. When you look at the people who really benefit it's the multinationals once again - lobby groups rather than farmers.

Economically and socially the the short term is likely to be catastrophic (value of the £, great opportunities to settle old scores a our expense) as no one has a crystal ball the long term is completely unknown

When you look at the people who really benefit it's the multinationals once again - lobby groups rather than farmers.

Yep - it's almost as if that was the whole idea ...

But unfortunately what the man on the Clapham omnibus hears is "no more nonsense about bendy bananas, or blowing up balloons, or whatever".

I'd wager that if challenged, your average man in the street wouldn't be able to name a single (real) thing that being in the EU has affected them negatively. At best you'll get "ummm, immigration?" which tells you all you need to know about Brexit really.

no one has a crystal ball the long term is completely unknown

And that applies to both sides of the argument. Whether we stay or go, it's speculation as to what will happen next.

When you look at the people who really benefit it's the multinationals once again - lobby groups rather than farmers.

One single thing, easy: the level of pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and so on in my diet. The European food safety authority is firmly in the pockets of the multinational chemical companies who have the same attitude to their products as tobacco companies, lead in petrol and the nuclear industry - you can't prove we are killing you so you can't stop us poisoning you.

It's very hard to provide proof that chemical in low doses are poisonous using statistics where things are compared with background levels. Some governments are more cautious in their approach than others. If a country tries to ban a product they are faced with a challenge from the European commission which goes to its lobby friends for advice and is told the product is safe. The national government is prevented from banning the substance so we go on consuming it.

Do we think the British government would ban them if they could?

NFU is in favour of staying in.

And yet if the UK were not in the EU the British government could protect British farmers from low international prices just as Switzerland protects its farmers. Perhaps the NFU has more faith in Brussels to look after farmers interests than the British government.

I don't know about the British government but the French government is currently in a battle with the European commission having banned pesticides used on cherries and the import of cherries treated with the pesticide.

I really believe that both the British and French public health authorities are more accountable to the public and more likely to act in our interests than the European commission.