[Closed] Virgin Trains absolute madness

Bonkers

Thats why I prefer the car. Our train fairs are ****ed. Should have much greater subsidy from general taxation and be cheaper to use.

Travel of the rich man!!! Me and the wife are going to Notts on Friday for a gig, staying in a hotel and coming back Saturday lunch! Opted to use public transport incase it's a heavy night on the beer post gig!!
Train £7.50 eway ish,, no return available, total, £30 (just over iirc)
Bus £5 return ish!
ie bus £20 cheaper takes 5 mins longer and more chance of a seat!!

Think of it from the company's point of view. She's just made an extra 10 quid for it without really doing anything. The choice was yours, you had a need, they satisfied your need at a cost you were happy to pay, jobs a good 'un.
Whether you use them again is a different question. 😕

bus £20 cheaper takes 5 mins longer and more chance of a seat!!

Why don't you take the bus then?

and the prices go up next year......

It will make my Sheffield to Derby commute cheaper in the car when it changes.

Buy a scooter. I'd rather cut my cock off than use a train/bus to get to work. I actually passed my test 'late in life' purely as I couldn't stand it anymore.

CHB- The train companies are massively sbsidised as it is, nationalised in all but name. The difference is, they get to keep any profits for themselves, which os why some tickets cost a fortune. I would have just taken my bike on the train anyway, have done on that route before and the guard never asks for a reservation.

This is something that doers my head in too. Why can't I reserve my bike when I book online, why must I just hope there is still space until I can go to the station, collect my tickets and then hopefully reserve a bike?

Combined with their opaque and apparently arbitrairy fare structure, it's almost like they want people to drive...

CHB- The train companies are massively sbsidised as it is, nationalised in all but name.

Err... No. They were subsidised, not any more.

That does sound like a ridiculous con frankly! Is the ticket refundable? Can you not cancel the whole journey and start again? That'd take more time and cost them more money!

I've just rocked up and popped the bike on, no questions asked but then you could get caught out and rejected. You then have the problem that your ticket could be for that specific train and you can't put your bike on. I assume that if you can't get on the train, your ticket would be invalid on any other service.

Out of curiosity, what happens if you book your bike on via ticketing then when you get to the guards van/cycle space, all the spaces are full becaseu people (me included) have taken a chance?

What if you take the wheels off your bike, then you've got a second hand bike frame and a pair of wheels. Any reason that they can tell you that you can't bring certain goods with you?

I travel by train quite a lot but only because my company pay. If I was paying there's no way I'd go by train, I really want to because I think it's not a bad experience normally but it's so priced out of sense that they give me no choice.

The first class/second class thing is seriously annoying though. The maount of times I get on a train at Euston to find the second class compartments overflowing and 3 people in first class. I guess they hope some people will upgrade but since private passengers have already paid a kings randsom for their ticket they can't afford to and corporate travellers hold ticket payment in a different perspective.

sam_underhill - Member
What if you take the wheels off your bike, then you've got a second hand bike frame and a pair of wheels. Any reason that they can tell you that you can't bring certain goods with you?

Wasn't there a bloke on here recently who had a massive plastic bag with him & when told he couldn't take his bike on the tube, stuck his bike in the bag & carried it on as luggage?!
I wonder if taking the wheels of, bungeeing them to the frame and carrying it on would be considered 'luggage'?

stumpy01 - I think you are right with that story. I wonder if there are maximum dimensions for permitted luggage on the trains?

"What if you take the wheels off your bike, then you've got a second hand bike frame and a pair of wheels. "

As a Dutch ticket inspector told me, "you can put a grand piaano in a bag but it'sch schtill a grand piaano and you're not schupposed to have a bike on this train".

I very nearly missed a train from Glagow to Preston because of the idiocity of having to have a ticket for my bike.

The most annoying part of the whole fiasco was that the train only had the one stop, and there wasn't anyone else with a bike, but I still had to go and get the ticket, and only just made the train. The bar steward of a "train manager" got his own back when I complained about the stupidity of it by locking the carriage with my bike in and buggering off home when we arrived at Preston, so I had a panic trying to find someone on the station to get my bike before my connecting train arrived.

We will be catching the bus!!

I just booked 4 of us on an Edinburgh-Berwick train this Saturday. East Coat Rail. £8 each and you can book the bike spaces online when you book your other tickets.

Booking on First Scotrail with a bike is usually absolutely painless.

Tried to book with First Transpennine a few weeks back and that was a massive fail. The call centre person even told me that, despite having booked a space, the train manager could refuse to let the bike on if he/she considered the train too busy!

They were subsidised, not any more.

Really?

I used to use the train a lot, and I still check the fares to see whether I can avoid hiring a car. Unfortunately, unless you get lucky, or are booking 12 weeks in advance, it's just too expensive. Heathrow to Dover and back was coming in at £150, whereas a car for the weekend was £65 - stupid though as the car will be sitting on the drive for the weekend!

Even if the car hire works out a little more, it's usually worth it for the extra flexibility.

Shame really, as when it works it's a really nice way to travel. Dover to Leeds over Christmas one year, stopping at the champagne bar at Charing Cross en route, still ranks as one of my favourite trips...

To the OP, when I have to travel with bike I always go to the station, they check to see whether there's space before I pay for the ticket. The thing that boils my blood is if you're having a weekend riding and book an open return because you don't know when you'll be coming back on the Sunday. However you have to book your bike on a specific train if you want to guarantee to get back! Agh! I've had hurried phone calls to India to try and book my bike on before, but because I bought my ticket at a station, I wasn't able to do it over the phone! What!? AGH!
Got to the station and thankfully all their computers were knackered so all bike bookings had been erased anyway. Sometimes their massive level of incompetence works in your favour.
The train system makes me want to go Michael Douglas on their ass, I then realise that taking my frustrations out on an innocent donkey wouldn't be right so I just post on forums instead.

I had the same issue a few years ago - booked tickets online for a return from Lancaster to Glasgow. Phoned to reserve bike. No spaces but I can change your ticket. I said no, I'd work out alternative arrangements. On the day I pitched up with the bike (planning on just winging it) and behold, 4 free bike spaces. No problem.

Basically, booking bikes on just goes to give a pen pusher a job, it means nothing. I've seen people refused permission to board with bikes cos the train already had 4 bikes on board even though they'd booked theirs on.

Several problems here. Ticketing regs are beyond ridiculous, everyone acknowledges this except ATOC and the Train Operating Companies. The whole lot needs a shake up. Why is this the case? Because there are dozens of private companies running services, and the way the TOC franchise system works means their goal isn't to provide service to the passenger but to operate the franchise within defined parameters at the lowest cost possible while maximizing subsidy and revenue, and therefore profit for shareholders.

Bikes on trains are seen privately by the TOCs as an inconvenience - they're required to carry bikes within limits and often otherwise at the guard's discretion but bikes take up space that fare-paying people could use instead, hence the hoops to jump through with the long-distance/That London operators. Space is at a premium because 1) TOCs run bare-bones fleets so save fuel/energy costs, 2) there's a national shortage of rolling stock anyway due to mass withdrawals to meet new regs ten years ago and the government's continued dalliance with biting the bullet and ordering new rolling stock, and 3) passenger numbers are through the roof.

It needs a wholesale shake up of the industry before things will improve, it's just not going to happen while you've got private companies running TOCs.

Local operators are usually a lot more flexible, ie just turn up and chuck your bike on. Don't expect miracles at rush hour, and remember also that split ticketing can be massively cheaper (ie try booking London-X & X-Y tickets).

nnjee20

Actyually teh railways have a massive subsidy - far greater than in pre privatisation days

http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-business-plan-indicators-input-01

Correct.

More relevant to this post, ticketing was far simpler up til about 1998 (couple of years after privatisation). Tickets for bikes at that time were unheard of - reservations had to be made on certain routes/operators but were generally free. And there was a lot more space for bikes on VWC / XC services before Branson's plastic trains started running (yes I know XC isn't Virgin these days).

many countries encourage transport integration

the UK seems to promote transport separation. Rails firms appear to actively discourage people from taking bikes on trains and consider it a nuisance.

Eee...when I were a lad most trains had a guards van for people to put luggage, bikes and goats in.

Rather than spunking however many billion on this high speed rail link between london and bham that no one seems to want, cant they buy some more rolling stock and improve existing services?

+1. Need to sort out low-speed rail first, unfortunately high-speed rail is seen as an easy way to free up capacity on the network that's been lost over the last 30+ years by short-sighted approach to minimizing maintenance requirements.

London-Manchester now takes 2 hours, how much faster do you want? Ever diminishing returns and all that.

Really frustrating that Virgin can't do bike bookings online yet. I had to add one to an existing ticket yesterday and it took 10 minutes ont phone... speaking to two different operators and enjoying quite a bit of hold music... to an 0871 number which is 35p/minute on Orange.

Still, better than getting turned away from the last train home from Wales on a Sunday night because it's too full...

Phoned today to book a return London-Stockport on Virgin Trains. Had to phone to reserve one of the four bike spaces.

The lady told me that I couldn't book the bike space until I'd booked the train ticket.

Yep that is how they roll... nuts.

also how 'low speed rail' isn't that slow - london to manchester is pretty rapid in Virgin

you can just chance it and as long as tick bods are not out you should be able to get you bike on... but it is a risk

Also, a polite word with the guard ('train manager' on Virgin et al) -before you try to board- won't do any harm if you haven't booked your bike on and you're resigned to having to snaffle your bike on ghetto style. If you ask and they say no they'd only have thrown you off at the first stop anyway if you didn't bother asking.

Argh! this makes my blood boil! We are supposed to be reducing carbon emissions and trying to reduce road congestion, and yet they make it verging on the impossible to take bikes on trains. I've been trying to do so for years, and have found that although local services in less populated areas are usually OK, Virgin and many South / SE TOC are the terrible.

I've had Virgin trying to stop me getting on the train despite having a bike reservation as the bike space was full of large suitcases. I've just tried to take my bike with me for a 5 day trip for work / family visiting to London and then Bedford - but faced 3 different bike booking systems - one of which meant downloading a form, filling it in, and posting it off at least 48 hrs before travel! I gave up, and now will have to be picked up from the stations by car instead of cycling, which just adds to polution.

There is a real need to be able to book bikes online at the same time as booking your passenger train ticket. There is no reason why this can't be done, and the reason it isn't? Train companies CBA with bikes, and in fact actively discourage it. I would happily pay an extra couple of quid for a 'bike ticket' if it meant I could ALWAYS guarantee getting my bike on the train.

Instead, I think it's time for a folding bike ...

The last time (September) I used the [url= http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/ ]East Coast website[/url], you could book bikes online, even with Virgin. It'll reject the booking if there is no bike space. Occasionally it'll reject the booking if one leg of the journey does not require bike space to be booked, but then it's a case of splitting the journey in two.

Their website is actually awesome. I think it's the only site I've ever searched out for a feedback form to tell them that, and guess what, it was even easy to give them feedback. Genuinely impressed with them.

Virgin trains are a complete and utter rip off

Richard Branson is a smarmy snakeoil sales man

All UK governments are there to be mugged by *wats like Branson

Branson claims to be champion of free enterprise but the truth is he is *ucking cluess at making money where there is free and open competition.

Every single Branson business that makes money need a government license to operate. And now the stupid bastards are giving him Northern Rock for a song.

Trains
Phones.
Planes
Banking

Bottom line, UK governments are all stupid and he is con artist of the highest order !

I took on a (road) bike in a bike bag and no one batted an eyelid, admitedly it was a Sunday afternoon and I was in first class, but to be honest it just looked like a big bag!

TJ - Network Rail are given a Network Grant yes (which is shown split across the franchises according to the track access charges), but the actual franchise operators are now paying premiums to operate the desireable franchises. The less desirable (ie the unprofitable) ones are still subsidised, but Virgin paid the Government about £150m last year IIRC for the pleasure of running the WCML.

The reason National Express East Coast folded was because it couldn't keep up with the payments deemed worthy for the 'blue ribbon' franchise. Ironcally it's now operated by the DfT under Directly Operated Railways, and worse than ever, but hey ho.

The DfT made 1.8p per mile from the TOCs last year according to your link. Network Rail is a whole other ball game!

Edit: [url= http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ebe5cd0-c744-11e0-a9ef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1fH9aLhe3 ]£110m apparently[/url].

I'm gonna blame the IRA for being the reason we don't have guard's vans.

the rail 'network' is subsidised to the tune of £5-6 billion a year, common knowledge this...

but the actual franchise operators are now paying premiums to operate the desireable franchises.

They do this out of the goodness of their hearts do they? And they don't benefit from the massive subsidies given to Network Rail?

The DfT made 1.8p per mile from the TOCs last year according to your link. Network Rail is a whole other ball game!

So, the trains are massively subsidised, unless you ignore the existence of Network Rail. 😉

Can anyone explain how the railways work as there was a piece no the One Show last night about train overcrowding and they said that operators could not just go out and buy extra carriages, They said they would need to get permission and funding from government and that it was really complicated. I understand that Network Rail is government owned but don't the train operators own the roiling stock. If not why not they are the ones making the profit and providing the service. All just seems bloody complicated.

Get on to Passenger Focus (the watchdog). I've used them once over a dispute regarding fares, fees, refunds etc and they have the clout to get beyond the "computer says no" call centre morons.

I've turned up to a virgin train before to be told I couldn't get on because I didn't have a bike reservation. Upon asking the guard how many bikes he had reserved he had no idea, but "that some might get on at intervening stations". I ran to the ticket office and the guy wrote me out one by hand without logging it on the online system.

I have also been on a train with the bike (reserved) and 6 other people have attempted to get on....all with reservations!

I have an ultra lightweight bikebag for occasional train use when I can't get a reservation. Noone has ever complained.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Can anyone explain how the railways work

Now this I'd like to see! 😆

Can anyone explain how the railways work

they don't

I once got shit from the 'train manager' even though I actually had a ticket to put my bike on a Virgin train. I couldn't have been more pleasant either.
GNER or National Express or whoever operates the east coast main can normally be persuaded into letting you take a bike on without a reservation.

ive had several occaisions where i have booked my bike on a train only to find that there was already the max number of bikes on the train and so wasnt allowed on. even though at least one of the bikes on there couldnt have booked. dont book anymore. just get there and take my chances.

Yes but Grum by that same logic motorists are subsidised by the HA. How dare drivers moan about petrol prices, they're paid far more than the rail industry!

My point was that statements about Virgin being paid millions to operate aren't true. Of course they're making money, but they're not exactly state funded! Yes they benefit from NR funding, again, as drivers do from HA funding.

I understand that Network Rail is government owned but don't the train operators own the roiling stock. If not why not they are the ones making the profit and providing the service. All just seems bloody complicated.

Rolling stock, right... For a start the TOCs generally don't own their stock, they lease it, (it's bloody expensive) but that's not the point. The franchise agreements will contain details on service provision, which will include things like new trains - eg Virgin were awarded the WCML franchise on the proviso they bought the Pendolinos (there's a whole other thing there about the WCML upgrade). First have the same with the Thameslink franchise. The TOCs are quite tightly governed on what they can do, it's not a free for all once they get the award - hence the bidding process. Where new rolling stock is required there's a tendering process to go through (see the recent controversy with Siemens beating Bombardier for the new Thameslink stock).

There are big issues with capacity - you can't just add more trains on most of the network, there isn't the physical space, most notably on the WCML/Southern/South Central (hence HS2, the big advantage of high speed rail is increased capacity). You can't make trains longer, there are all sorts of limits on that front! With MU stock you can potentially add more units where possible, but most overcrowded services are already as long as they can be, the 03:21 to Thurso probably doesn't need another 2 coaches!

So basically the reasons TOCs can't go out and just buy more trains is:
- Expensive
- Franchise restrictions
- Physical capacity

There's a bit of a degree of 'too many cooks' and too much red tape. NR are shifting to longer franchise agreements to try and bring some more stability to the industry. Nationalisation does have it's advantages, however there's a lot of rose-tinted spectacles being used when looking at the rail industry - it carries more passengers than at any time since WW2, on half the route miles, on predominantly Victorian infrastructure (if you look to replace that people are up in arms though, see the HS2 example!). Punctuality is better than BR ever managed.

Yes it is expensive, but compare the service we have to that in, for example, the US (even their North East Corridor, which is the busiest bit of line). We don't do that badly!

I'm gonna blame the IRA for being the reason we don't have guard's vans.

Bikes on the transpennine trains up to Scotland really are bollex - the conductor (guard?) never checks, so anyone can get on with a bike. If you booked a bike ticket and were getting on mid-way you could see the bike space totally stowed out with bikes. What's the train man going to do, turf four different people off at Penrith to accommodate the one guy with a valid ticket? Unlikely.

It's the shift to multiple unit stock and the maximisation of seating basically. A proper 'guards van' was something on the back of a freight train to provide braking in the event of a coupling failure, as old freight stock didn't have independant brakes.

The 91 stock on the ECML still has DVTs (at the London end), where I assume the bikes go, certainly that's where the guard sits if he wants to escape. Ditto the HSTs on the GWML and the ECML have power cars with bike storage, and a TGS MK3 coach at coach A (at the non-London end) with some storage space. However, with EMUs and power being dispersed through the train there's no need for a DVT or a power car, thus no big empty space. What used to be half a coach dedicated to the guard/luggage/bikes etc is now usually racks at the end of each coach and a vestibule for a few bikes, whilst the guard hangs out in the rear/intermediate cab!

to the OP: YOU CAN book bike tickets at the same time as you book the train ticket, online!
you can only do this on www.eastcoast.co.uk
it doesn't have to be an east coast train.

Rolling stock is leased, leasing companies (ROSCOs) have generally been owned by banks. The train operating companies (TOCs) service and maintain rolling stock, sometimes in association with the manufacturer (ie Siemens, Alstom) for newer trains. For even the most basic 2-carriage passenger train (lowliest on the network in 2011) leasing costs alone are about £200k pa. The cost of new passenger rolling stock usually works out about £1m per carriage.

The government (nationally and locally) decide service levels and allocation of rolling stock and let franchises based on historic, geographic and commercial boundaries. The TOCs (franchisees) gamble that they can turn a profit running the franchises within the specifications the govt prescribes.

A few 'open access' operators (Hull Trains, Grand Central, Wrexham & Shropshire) - basically people wanting to run trains outside the franchise system - have cropped up since privatisation. Generally these companies tend to lose money hand over fist, and all the above have either gone bust or been bought out by their (franchised) competitors if they turn a profit or prove a threat to business.

The standards, safety cases, regulations and general cans of worms involved in running train services, even for established franchised operators, keeps armies of lawyers and consultants in business. That's one reason why the railway today sucks up more subsidy than ever when nationalised under British Rail (which even managed to run its own extensive R&D departments and make everything itself including its own steel).

The tories privatised BR in the 90s, the mess we have now is directly the result of that.

Oh and one reason the bike spaces are at the ends of newer trains such as Pendolinos etc is because construction standards dictated that passengers couldn't travel in that portion of the front vehicle in case of collision. Effectively, the crumple zone.

Yes it is expensive, but compare the service we have to that in, for example, the US (even their North East Corridor, which is the busiest bit of line). We don't do that badly!

Local trains from here are commuter hours only - so 3 in the morning, 3 in the evening, none at the weekend. However, if you are prepared to travel during the week, you can get to New York on local trains - 120 miles, costs about $25, takes ~4 hours.

The 'proper' Amtrak trains are a joke however. We took a 2 hour journey back from NYC as we needed to get back on Sunday. For the princely sum of $105pp (£67), one-way, you get a crummy, old, smelly train, that runs late and is 100% booked solid, with no reserved seats. So it's a crazy dash onto the train to find a seat not next to the weirdo. There's no luggage room either. Bike space... 🙄

So, I'd rather be riding trains in the UK y'all hear?

Oh well, between cheburashka and I there's a vague crash course on how the railways run, and confirmation we have it better than the US. Without going too far off on a tangeant (although I suspect it's too late), a lot of the problem for Amtrak (the state owned passenger TOC) is access rights - the majority of US rail infrastructure is owned by the freight operators, who sell access rights to Amtrak, who are (understandably) absolutely then the lowest of the low.

Imagine what the WCML would be like if the freight trains had priority... there's your long distance US service! That's when they're not crashing.

njee20 & cheburashka, you are Christian Wolmar and his lost twin brother and I claim my five pounds.
😆

I interviewed Christian Wolmar for my dissertation actually, really nice guy, just as scatty and slightly mental as he appears!

"Integrated Transport" - don't hear much about that, these days...

I wonder if taking the wheels of, bungeeing them to the frame and carrying it on would be considered 'luggage'?

Always worked for me when I was a student. I used to wrap it in a sheet.

Njee - this is by far the most I've ever seen you post on a thread that wasn't about racing or weight weenyism. Presumably it's related to your job?

"Integrated Transport" - don't hear much about that, these days...

Is that like how if I get the train to Norwich there is not direct bus between the rail statin and airport, and the one that runns fro the city centre doesn't allow the Rail+bus tickets?

What is it about Tories and the trains?

Beeching, Thatcher / Major....

2 years ago we decided to go cycle touring in France with the kids.

So 4 ferry passengers with bikes.

At the time the ferry had a "family" special for a car + 4 passengers.

We asked if we could buy that, but just not bring the car.

Nope.

So we had to pay extra to not bring the car!

i could write a book regarding the altercations that i have had with either rail staff or drunken passengers while using our glorious train network!

my favourite was when, after being made to feel insignificant by a tubby manager for not reserving a space for my bicycle, we had a full blown arguement as to his reasons why-he said i had to get a ticket as there were 3 riders embarking from midway, needless to say no-one got on the train. The best bit was when, during this shouting match, a random passenger stood up for me and asked the sweaty manager to "keep quiet as we were in a quiet carriage"!
you should have seen his bloated face.

brilliant.

Some of the problems with the trains seem more endemic to our society than to the rail industry itself. The fact that we're a nation of feet-on-seat, fare-dodging pissheads isn't something that can really be laid at the train companies door.

You get a train in Switzerland, say, and it's a really nice environment that makes you think why can't we have trains like this in the UK. Apparently the reason is our rolling stock sucks and it's a huge outlay to upgrade it. Say we did, though - it's still the same people on the train.

Njee - this is by far the most I've ever seen you post on a thread that wasn't about racing or weight weenyism. Presumably it's related to your job?

I rarely stray onto the chat forum, it's a scary place filled with names I don't know and far too little talk of what things weigh 🙂

But yes, a degree (and a former job) in Transport Planning, a personal interest in the rail industry and parents who both worked (Dad still does) in the rail industry for 20 years means I struggle to escape it!

You get a train in Switzerland, say, and it's a really nice environment that makes you think why can't we have trains like this in the UK. Apparently the reason is our rolling stock sucks and it's a huge outlay to upgrade it. Say we did, though - it's still the same people on the train

Aye, think that's probably a fair point frankly! Being a train driver is a very respected profession over there as well apparently, less so here (although I don't really know why!), so it's an intrinsic view of the industry in all respects which is different.

Being a train driver is a very respected profession over there as well apparently, less so here

Still astoundingly well paid though.

Wow I started a monster.

Anyway, been busy in Manchester these last few days, but suffice to say that the Virgin ticketing system isn't just madness, some of the staff are incompetent too.

I turned up at Euston 20 mins before my train with an aim to collect my return ticket and bike reservations from the machine...

...it spat out two return tickets and no bike reservations. Not only had the call centre lady not refunded the first attempt, but hadn't actually booked the bike space on the train that did have spaces. Nice.

Luckily the lady at the Virgin reception desk was very helpful - apart from first getting me a bike space on a train one hour in the past, but I'll let her off that one. She still said I had to phone the call centre to get the redundant ticket refunded however, and now I have to send the physical tickets back recorded delivery to Virgin urgh.

ps. Amazing that eastcoast can book a bike space & ticket at the same time on Virgin trains, but Virgin cant.