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Views on men in drag for charity
Doesn't it boil down to "I don't find it particularly amusing, but each to their own"? While I'm not insensitive to the ways in which it may affect those in a more gender-fluid or gender-uncertain space, I'm very wary about the concept of ownership of a particular space by a certain group, and the current trend for banning or demanding the banning of certain behaviours along the lines of "you can't do that, that's *my* space!".
Now I'm at a keyboard for typing rather than a phone let me put a bit more detail in this.
What's the harm? It's just a bit of fun...
I was born in 1972. I knew I was different from the start. I wanted to wear clothes like my sister did, have long hair and play with dolls. I knew it was weird because no-one else was like me. I spent years agonising about this. I wanted to tell my parents so they would buy me a dress. They were kind and loving so it would be fine wouldn't it?
Then when I was about 9 we were all watching TV. It was The Two Ronnies or Morecombe and Wise or similar. The two charactors came on wearing dresses. The audience erupts. It was the funniest thing ever. They didn't tell jokes or do anything, the whole gag was two men wearing dresses. The audience laughter was the real screeching laughter. I was just locked in position. Then I was aware that my parents and sister were laughing as well. It was a massive joke. A man in a dress what could be funnier. I was absolutely mortified, I knew I could never be myself and I'd spend my life as a lie.
The programme finished. I went upstairs and embarked on a 20 year programme of self harm interspersed with a few half hearted suicide attempts. My parents would hate me if they ever knew the real me. I will never come out to Mum.
So where's the harm in laughing at men in dresses? Well think of a 9 year old sitting in his bedroom slashing away at his arms with a penknife, then tell me where the harm is.
I was gonna say don't go dressing up as a carrot for fancy dress, you might upset the vegetarians... but the above has rather put a dampener on it.
Double post, no idea why
So you really can’t see that mocking a marginalised demographic for their identity is really not acceptable any more? Wow. I really thought you were better than that.
I think big burly guys dressing up as women is more a case of mocking themselves rather than any marginalised demographics.
And I think it is probably remarkably easy not to get offended by it. I assume that the BBC, which is sensitive to the issue of offending viewers, presumably receives very few complaints with regards to Mrs Brown's Boys.
Not getting offended by someone dressed up in a grotesque racial caricature manner might however be more difficult.
Commonsense would dictate to most people that Brendan O'Carroll playing a role which required him to dress up as a golliwog would be deeply offensive and nowhere as acceptable as dressing up as a middle-aged woman.
I would still however always urge people wherever possible not to get offended. Very few people have the capability to offend me and allowing yourself to be offended almost always satisfies the person who is attempting to offend you.
I assume your comment "I really thought you were better than that" wasn't designed to be a compliment, I will however strive not to be offended. So no need to apologise for questioning my integrity 😊
I was gonna say don’t go dressing up as a carrot for fancy dress, you might upset the vegetarians… but the above has rather put a dampener on it.
Agreed.
There is always someone who is offended by something or a lack of something, so if you set out to offend no one you've failed before you've even started.
It slightly smacks my gob, that, after reading boriselbrus's posts, people still think that, effectively, "it's just a bit of fun, don't take it so seriously" is a reasonable response.
Well, no one has said anything on this thread that offends me.
However, several people have said, and are continuing to say things, which are hopelessly (and at this point I would say willfully because I honestly can't understand how you can read what boriselbrus wrote and continue to spout the same shite about 'offense') ignorant.
I don't find you offensive. I just think you're arseholes.
It slightly smacks my gob, that, after reading boriselbrus’s posts, people still think that, effectively, “it’s just a bit of fun, don’t take it so seriously” is a reasonable response.
The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.
Boriselbrus has obviously experienced some traumatic emotional issues in life, which is clearly extremely unfortunate.
I don't accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.
Before Boris' reply, I thought it was stupid and faintly insensitive. Plus it's not funny. Now I can see why it could be properly offensive and of course, it remains unfunny*.
See also: Mrs Brown's Boys.
I don’t find you offensive. I just think you’re arseholes.
lol
Ru Paul has said
"I do not impersonate females! How many women do you know who wear seven-inch heels, four-foot wigs, and skintight dresses?"
He also said,
"I don't dress like a woman; I dress like a drag queen!"
Dressing as a woman has a long history in Industrial and social striking and civil disobedience as well, going as far back as the middle ages, and the opposite; women dressing as men to either join the Army, Navy or Pirates is pretty common, hell the French even celebrate a cross dresser as an historic national treasure.
While boriselbrus childhood experience sounds awful, and I've every sympathy, I don't think folks dressing as the opposite sex for a laugh, or for politics, is going away any time soon.
The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.
decades ago. Social attitudes change. Both look very dated now
How about "love thy neighbour" - would you see that sort of humour just as " a bit of fun?
The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.
So was the Black and White Minstrel Show.
I don’t accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.
Even though you've had first hand, detailed, testimony about why it causes offence. In fact, not offence, because that word has become meaningless really. It causes hurt. You still okay with it?
I don't know why I'm asking really.
I don’t accept that the solution to issues which boriselbrus might have personally experienced is to categorise cross dressing humour as offensive.
What do you mean by 'offensive'?
To me, being offensive is just a progression of being an arsehole to the point where you could end up being publicly shamed, lose your job, possibly face prosecution... etc.
This issue is not at the offensive stage yet. It's still at the 'bit of an arsehole thing to do' stage.
If people could just leave things be once they got to the arsehole stage then the world would be a happier place. Unfortunately, people are so invested in their personal freedom to do whatever the hell they want that you always get some who feel compelled to continue with their arsehole behaviour until it gets to the stage where the only people who are still doing it are out and out racists, homophobes, misogynists, transphobes, etc.
And at that point, yes, it becomes an offensive thing to do.
If you are so hell bent on making this an offensive thing then please carry on doing it/defending it. Otherwise can't we just agree it's an arsehole thing to do and leave it at that?
I always thought a good way to gauge humor was,
are you laugh up or laugh down at the subject.
if you are laughing down, then its effectively mocking the subject from a point of power.
In this case rugby guys getting dressed up as women for a laugh seems to me to be laughing down. i.e. the joke is by dressing as women that is "funny". Would it be as funny if a women's rugby team dressed as men?
The Two Ronnies and Morecombe and Wise was definitely just a bit of fun.
So was the Black and White Minstrel Show.
You walked into that one, Ernielynch!
I thought the STW forum was a bit of fun. How wrong I was.
Pre-Covid, when we used to go to work, we had a few non-binary / transgender / obviously ex men dressed in womens clothes on our business park and everyone just ignored them (inc one who dressed in the most dayglow pink outfits you could possibly imagine which was quite hard to ignore as it nearly burnt your retinas).
It may just be your particular choice of words, but do you think those people want ignored? Obviously, they don't want harrassed but I think treating people as though they are invisible is almost as bad as laughing at them.
I thought the STW forum was a bit of fun. How wrong I was.
It is, there are some [i]very[/i] witty people on here (and some proper arseholes too, mind). Making fun of people who have (historically) less power than you isn't funny though, it's just bullying, and bullies are ****s.
And yes it is sexist as well as it portrays women as the high heels, short skirt wearing, dolly birds beloved by 70’s sitcoms. Does the fact the story is in the Daily Mail not tell you something?
mmm... you didn't look at the pictures did you? not a single high heel, and the skirts were barely above the knee. Probably the only thing 1970's about it was when the dresses were created... I can't work out if that makes it better or worse - but it certainly doesn't mean that a charity is under any obligation to (1) take money from anyone it doesn't want to or (2) promote the fundraisers on social media. Even if I worked at the charity and thought "probably no harm done" I'm not sure I'd want to put it on Social Media and deal with the inevitable flak and twitter storm that would ensue. Regardless of where you sit on the argument - the volunteer who deals with their twitter account probably doesn't need that stress or abuse in their life.
I notice that the new charity doesn't seem to have been named?
This issue is not at the offensive stage yet. It’s still at the ‘bit of an arsehole thing to do’ stage.
Did you read boriselbrus's post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That's how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.
A 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide is a truly appalling crises. I personally don't recall ever hearing of anyone that young wanting to self-harm or end their lives.
And I don't personally believe that it all centred on watching a comedy programme loved by millions, whatever boriselbrus might say.
I don't think the Black and White Minstrel Show was supposed to be comedy btw. It was crap though.
apparently
Stay classy.
some proper arseholes too, mind
Aren't there just.
Did you read boriselbrus’s post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That’s how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.A 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide is a truly appalling crises. I personally don’t recall ever hearing of anyone that young wanting to self-harm or end their lives.
And I don’t personally believe that it all centred on watching a comedy programme loved by millions, whatever boriselbrus might say.
I don’t think the Black and White Minstrel Show was supposed to be comedy btw. It was crap though.
The thing is, I bet you're looking at things from a fairly privileged perspective (ie straight white male? Apologies if my assumption is wrong though, no offense meant m8y, just a bit of [i]fun[/i] etc...) so your opinion isn't really worth anything because you have no frame of reference and no experience of the feelings that boriselbrus had/has. Unless you do, in which case I apologise.
In my job I've had people assume I'm 'just' the help when in fact it's my business, I come up with the ideas and do the drawing and machining and people (men, pretty much) are amazed that 'just' a woman can think of and make all these clever little things and I'm ****ing bored of it.
So shit like this and other bullying behaviour can get right in the ****ing sea along with the ****s that perpetuate it.
Even though you’ve had first hand, detailed, testimony about why it causes offence.
There will be someone else who is triggered to self harm by something else.
Say, I wanted to be a good MTB rider but found out at 10 I was never gonna make it because I saw someone doing stuff I could never do. Do we ban MTB?
If someone is raped on a bus and then busses trigger self harm? Do we ban busses?
Or supposing someone is raped by blokes on a stag night dressed as Groucho Marx and then their trigger for self harm is stag nights themselves? We ban stag nights?
I suspect a lot of people have all kinds of triggers that take them to dark places. The Fast Show sketch where the guy can't hear the word black - that's based on fact, words can trigger.
My daughter smashed her face on a wooden post. If I see similar wooden posts it sends me to a pretty bad place.
I'm pretty sure Sarah Everard's family wouldn't want to see a stag night party dressed as policemen.
So I think stopping doing things for fear of triggering bad things in people is a non stater and if we want to do that I'm pretty sure the most urgent things to ban won't be remotely clothing related.
Did you read boriselbrus’s post? We are talking about a 9 year old child self-harming and contemplating suicide as a result of watching the Two Ronnies. That’s how offensive the Two Ronnies was, apparently.
Offensive isn't about the effect on the individual, it's about society's awareness of the harm that seemingly harmless things can cause.
Gender fluidity is a concept that we, as a society, are only just starting to tackle. It's still possibly to act thoughtlessly. It would be nice if someone said, 'Maybe you should think twice about doing that' then normal people would actually stop, have a think, and decide that with the new knowledge and understanding we have we should adjust our behaviour and attitudes.
Unfortunately, instead of actually listening to the personal stories of people like boriselbrus' and others, some people choose (and it is a choice at this point, the ignorance is willful) to put their fingers in their ears and keep repeating, 'JUST DON'T BE OFFENDED, JUST DON'T BE OFFENDED, IT'S JUST A BIT OF FUN...'
So, to answer your question, I did read boriselbrus' post. Did you?
Stay classy.
Well I say apparently because I am assuming it was the Two Ronnies and not Morecombe and Wise. Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can't be sure which show it was.
I don't recall Morecambe and Wise ever dressing up as women.
Nor do I necessarily accept that the trauma in boriselbrus life for the following 20 years was centred on a comedy show. A 9 year old doesn't go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show. There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus's life.
OK, I'm done.
You're a ****ing piece of shit.
Ban me, I don't care.
Trans rights groups are particularly vociferous on social media. I can understand why charities might choose to avoid a potential social media storm.
Unfortunately, the whole debate surrounding Gender identity etc, has been poisoned by a small number of individuals who are almost always quite young, extremely opinionated, yet also quite ignorant. People who seek to impose their own views as correct, yet not listen to anyone else and scream 'phobe!' at anyone who dares question them, whilst dismissing anyone with a different opinion as 'wrong'. Cultural cancellers. As a result, many people have got their undergarments in a twist, and are desperately trying to be nice' and not upset anyone. Trouble is, there's always going to be someone who is upset by something. That's life. But the real problem now is that many women's voices are being drowned out by hysterical screeching from an extremely vocal and abusive (and sometimes violent) minority. And then many people who haven't thought it through all that much (because it really wasn't considered an 'issue' by most in society until very recently) suddenly nail their colours to a mast without really knowing in what direction the ship is sailing.
And here's a great example:
Its not a million miles from blacking up is it?
It is. It really is. Go have a read about drag artists and the Stonewall riots.
@brucewee, online abuse is *far" more likely to trigger self harm than charity money raising in drag.
I'm pretty sure people have actually killed themselves. (In fact, I think someone on STW has.)
Agree?
Yeah probably time to close the thread. I can't see anything good coming from further discussions. Unless everyone agrees.
No, keep it open. Such discussions are well overdue.
Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can’t be sure which show it was.
He was 9, ffs. And I'd imagine the fact that there were two fellas on the telly dressed as women, and everyone thought that was hilarious, was more important to him at the time than who the two fellas were.
A 9 year old doesn’t go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show.
No, they go to their room and self-harm because they know that they are 'different' to everyone else and think that the world they're trying to grow up in won't ever accept them for who they are, and the telly comedy show is, to them, further proof of that.
There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus’s life.
There were, see above.
As for outofbreath's post, I don't know where to start really.
Well I say apparently because I am assuming it was the Two Ronnies and not Morecombe and Wise. Despite the fact that it had such a profound affect boriselbrus can’t be sure which show it was.I don’t recall Morecambe and Wise ever dressing up as women.
Nor do I necessarily accept that the trauma in boriselbrus life for the following 20 years was centred on a comedy show. A 9 year old doesn’t go up to their bedroom to self-harm because of a telly comedy show. There must have been some truly bad things going on in boriselbrus’s life.
Jesus wept, you have absolutely no ****ing idea do you?
Hmmmm, I don't actually think it is "PC Gawwn Maaaaad!" really is it?
Rugger-buggers put on women's clothes whenever there's a Charadee event to fancy-dress-up for, it's about the craziest thing their imaginations can come up with I think.
It's pretty standard and forms part of their unconcious commentary on gender roles and attire I'm sure. Manly men subverting expectations by wearing old dresses blah, blah, blah... Were people offended? perhaps, a couple in passing, no big deal a decade ago, barely registers today TBH...
But times do change and now in 2021 an organisation that has to consider all perspectives on the publicity they put out there have simply decided to stop sharing those particular images on their website, just to avoid fuelling any would be offense-takers (label them "woke" if you must).
I don't think the charity are ungrateful for the effort or money raised, they're simply trying to head off a minor conflict/publicity issue every time they put up some photos.
Somewhat ironically the people getting most wound up by all of this, and taking offense are the "Anti-Woke" and "it all PC gone mad" crowd.
Mr Tomlinson added: 'We are going to continue to raise money, but for a different charity.
Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face. Why not simply carry on doing what you did before but in Hawaiian shirts and trilbies or something.
I do sometimes wonder who the "Professional offense takers" actually are...
Yeah probably time to close the thread. I can’t see anything good coming from further discussions. Unless everyone agrees.
Why? Cos you're in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?
Whoever shut it down on the charity end needs sacking and replacing. Bad PR all round.
Just posted to say I’m enjoying this thread whilst it’s still open..😂
Whilst I’m neither here nor there on the issue of men dressing as woman (although I do find it profoundly unfunny), I do find it slightly ironic that the folks whom preach about not being offensive to others are the same ones that are calling folks who hold a different opinion ‘arseholes’ ..
Can’t we all just be a bit more tolerant of other peoples views…
the telly comedy show is, to them, further proof of that.
Yes I am aware of that. And I am not insensitive to the traumas of a suicidal 9 year old child FFS.
They obviously need help and support, if that wasn't available then it is truly tragic.
I don't however think that, for example, banning Mrs Brown's Boys in case it upsets 9 year olds with gender identification issues is the appropriate response.
@brucewee, online abuse is *far” more likely to trigger self harm than charity money raising in drag.
I’m pretty sure people have actually killed themselves. (In fact, I think someone on STW has.)
Agree?
Ah yes, I'm the one who is saying things most likely to trigger a mental health crisis on this thread?
Between that and the absolute pile of horse manure you wrote above I think we know where you stand on this so don't try and portray your side as being the 'victims'.
Ignorance is one thing. Wilful ignorance that takes the levels of mental gymnastics you and ernielynch are displaying can only come from a place of deep seated prejudice and I have absolutely no time or patience for bigots.
I don’t however think that, for example, banning Mrs Brown’s Boys in case it upsets 9 year olds with gender identification issues is the appropriate response.
Yes, there are far better reasons to ban Mrs Brown's Boys.
What do people think about that well-known MTBer, Grayson Perry?
Can’t we all just be a bit more tolerant of other peoples views…
Tolerant of all views or just the ones you personally don't find offensive?
Whilst I do not agree with Ernie's overall stance, it seems better to discuss these things rather than not. Calling people a ****ing piece of shit is not acceptable imho.
Why? Cos you’re in a position of weakness? Not a very nice place to be, is it?
Bleedin'ell if I was worried about offending middle-class liberal hypocrisy I certainly wouldn't be arguing that a middle-age man dressing up as a woman is acceptable on one thread, whilst simultaneously arguing that calling a woman a fat slag was unacceptable on another thread.
Would I?
What do people think about that well-known MTBer, Grayson Perry?
No problem at all, he's not 'dressed as a woman' for laughs or to belittle anyone.