[Closed] Views on men in drag for charity

Struggling to see the offence really caused here. However, I can imagine the hospice worrying that it’s all going to be a bit ‘I’m a lady!’ trans insensitive for the times. Pantomime is next.

Personally I've always found men in drag offensive to women.

Pretty poor effort on the drag front, looks more like Grannies?

That aside, I get where the charity are coming from. Local festival in These Here Parts involves local rugby team doing "fancy dress". They have only recently curbed the black-face costumes.

I am sure without much effort they could come up with costumes that don't offend people. It is only fun when everybody is having fun!

It's political correctness gone mad!!!

@gauss1777 - are you a woman? One of my daughter's favourite TV shows is Drag Race..

Trans rights groups are particularly vociferous on social media. I can understand why charities might choose to avoid a potential social media storm.

It is only fun when everybody is having fun!

Or as long as everyone remembers their ‘safe’ word 😃

Not clicking on the link.

But in my old job I did lots of pastoral work with teens. I remember vividly spending time with one young student who was making decisions about their gender identity. Deciding if they were 'brave enough' to wear a dress around school which they felt most comfortable in but tradition dictated would be unusual. They made the decision, set a date and planned what they were to wear. So proud of them when the event came around and they came down the stairs all dressed up with a massive smile.

Unbeknown to them (and me) a group of the 'likely lads' (to paraphrase - alpha male, rugby players) decided the same event would be a right laugh to pitch up to in drag. Camp it up for the laughs. Not in any way intended to offend or belittle the other student and not done knowing the importance of the date to them or what they were going to do. Just a terrible coincidence. But the impact was felt and it was real. They felt their decision was being humiliated because this group were (sort of) doing the same thing for laughs - to look ridiculous. QED they looked ridiculous. It took months to unravel that.

I'd say in time (and not too long) blokes in drag for the jokes at a stag do (or charity do) will be viewed the same way as a stag do in black face would be viewed now. 3 years has passed since the incident above and I'd say most 16-20 years olds already get it. It's just us old codgers who need to catch up.

Pretty poor effort on the drag front, looks more like Grannies?

That's part of the whole vibe - they buy the crappest outfits possible from the hospice charity shop, raise loads of money for the hospice, then donate the crap dresses back to the charity shop, so they can be re-sold

I feel a bit conflicted about this as it feels rather 70s to me - but on the other hand I have organised entertainment shows in nursing homes I worked in ( staff doing the acts) and the drag acts always got the biggest laughs

I think storm in a teacup really and a bit OTT from the hospice but I get where they are coming from

Isn't this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they've always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Isn’t this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they’ve always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Eh?

I’d say in time (and not too long) blokes in drag for the jokes at a stag do (or charity do) will be viewed the same way as a stag do in black face would be viewed now.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously there is fundamentally nothing wrong with men wearing women's clothes. In this case the motivation is important. I feel people do this to make themselves look ridiculous ("for a laugh") and choosing this method may not be something a charity want to be associated with and probably should be consigned to the past

Isn’t this just another one of those occasions where people ask us to sponsor them to climb Kilimanjaro or cycle across Africa or something else they’ve always really wanted to do but lacked the excuse?

Subtle 🤣

I feel people choose to do this to make themselves look ridiculous (“for a laugh”)

This is really the answer, I think. We've created an environment where we encourage and enable people to consider and experiment with sexuality, gender, etc, and we need to ensure that that environment supports those people, not makes fun of them, remembering that many will be young and /or vulnerable in various ways.

It's very difficult to look at this objectively and think beyond 'so you're a man wearing women's clothing and that is meant to encourage me to give to a charity'. What's the driver for it?

'Full Member'

footflaps
Full Member
It’s political correctness gone mad!!!

nah, you want to read this for true madness...

https://meaww.com/oberlin-studentscared-as-cisgender-men-installed-radiators-dorms

From a non Binary perspective.

I don't like it. It enforces the belief that men in dresses or skirts are freaks, figures of fun to be laughed at. Real men only do it for a bet, to humiliate a stag or to raise money because it's so freaky.

Those who are trans, or non binary do not want to be seen as freaks. We just want to wear what we want and present how we feel comfortable without being laughed at or ridiculed.

So your mates put on dresses and go to pubs encouraging people to laugh at them in exchange for a few quid in the collection bucket. Lots of "whay heys" and "show us your tits love". All good fun and no harm done. Then I walk in wearing a skirt and heels, what reaction will I get?

Oh and a trans or non binary man in a dress is not the same as drag. Drag is a character performance. It's like dressing up as a unicorn or something.

I'm not going to get angry about it if people do it, but it's not right and not really acceptable these days. We've moved on. It's not the 1970's anymore.

@boriselbrus I’m with you, this belongs in a different era. It’s not “political correctness”, a right wing invented term, like “woke”. It’s politeness and caring for other human beings.

+1 boriselbrus. Well said.

I clicked on the link. I'll probably survive.

Odd story. Is the event they take part in - the "Leo Sayer All Dayer" what it appears to be, an all-day pub session?

I'm also reading that the charity thanked these rugby club guys on social media etc, but didn't include their photo. This has caused the outrage.

In response, despite supporting this specific charity for 18 years, the rugby club members involved have chosen to continue the drag, but support a different charity as they think this is - quoted - PC gone mad.

This apparently started because when they first went to the charity shop many years ago, no men's clothing fitted them. Believable.

Hmmm. I'm with the charity on this one.

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days.

characters in panto are in drag too both male and female. Not putting pics up on the site is PC wokeness gone mad.

Its not a million miles from blacking up is it?

The hospice didn't use the photograph they sent and a man that dresses up as a woman went in a huff.

If it makes it into the mail it's not really news, it's a bit like showing Benny Hill vids for charity, more imagination and cultural awareness required.

So your mates put on dresses and go to pubs encouraging people to laugh at them in exchange for a few quid in the collection bucket. Lots of “whay heys” and “show us your tits love”. All good fun and no harm done. Then I walk in wearing a skirt and heels, what reaction will I get?

Surely context has everything to do with it? In the first case everyone knows its for a laugh and is in on the joke. In the second case, I assume most just think 'that's a bit odd' and just carry on doing whatever they were doing.

Pre-Covid, when we used to go to work, we had a few non-binary / transgender / obviously ex men dressed in womens clothes on our business park and everyone just ignored them (inc one who dressed in the most dayglow pink outfits you could possibly imagine which was quite hard to ignore as it nearly burnt your retinas).

But if a charity you'd supported for 18 years said something like "could you just be, like, Transformers or something for us" would you really feel the need to die on that hill and ditch the charity? Time moves on, surely it's about the fundraising, yes?

would you really feel the need to die on that hill and ditch the charity?

Who knows what really happened. Maybe they quite liked having a laugh and wanted to dress up in drag and just found another cause to support - possibly they weren't wedded to that charity very much. Eg we have a work sponsered charity which someone decided on ages ago, I have zero emotional attachment to it and if it changed tomorrow to another one, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

are you a woman? One of my daughter’s favourite TV shows is Drag Race..

No, I am not a woman. But, to me it says 'we are men and this is how we picture women' ie women should dress in high heels, fishnet tights etc etc. You never see men dress as women by putting on jeans and a jumper. It just rankles.

A Leo Sayer is indeed an all day drinking session. No one told them not to do it. The drinkers' money was accepted. Their photo wasn't used in charity publicity. The drinkers phoned for a huff and left in it.

I mean, I like a good culture war as much as the next complacent ****, but can't really see a story here. If only I could think of a fitting pic...

 I have zero emotional attachment to it and if it changed tomorrow to another one, I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

I was getting the vibe you were backing the dressing-up-for-charity dudes in the story, but that is savage 😂

I was getting the vibe you were backing the dressing-up-for-charity dudes in the story, but that is savage

I have to confess to attending a few fancy dress parties in drag, so I have some sympathy 😉

It would appear that the Daily Mail article is factually incorrect, who would have thought it?

The DM claimed that there had not been one single complaint.

According to another source the hospital has said that they received complaints some years back :

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19660159.hospice-says-truly-sorry-got-decision-wrong-upton-rugby-club-drag-fundraiser/

The simplest solution to the problem is not to get offended.

That would definitely solve the problem.

Dressing up as a woman for amusement purposes is as legitimate as any other reason imo.

It's not a right "owned" by women and transexuals anymore than dressing up as a man is a right reserved for men.

Surely context has everything to do with it? In the first case everyone knows its for a laugh and is in on the joke. In the second case, I assume most just think ‘that’s a bit odd’ and just carry on doing whatever they were doing.

So it would be fine to dress up as say a golly*** for a laugh would it? Go to a pub, raise a bit of money? Then a black person walks in and wouldn't feel even a bit uncomfortable?

Sorry, but it's offensive. The days of laughing at men for wearing skirts is over. David Walliams and Matt Lucas have said the same.

Edit.
Oh FFS Ernie, is the solution to racism or sexism just to not be offended? Or is the solution to try to not offend?

David Walliams and Matt Lucas have said the same.

I don't think having a hit TV show gives you some sort moral right to dictate how other people may dress or what constitutes humour. Fascinating as their opinions might be.

Oh FFS Ernie, is the solution to racism or sexism just to not be offended? Or is the solution to try to not offend?

I don't believe in one solution fits all.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

Not sure how best to put this...I don't much care if men dress up as women, therefore a group of men dressing up as women for comedic purposes strikes me as slightly uncomfortable.

And I think this is why it's in the Mail, it is intended to appeal to the crusty gammon that thinks the opposite, nothing wrong with proper rugby playing heterosexuals dressing up for a laugh, not so sure about the real ones though...sort of thing.

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days

It was explained, just a few posts before yours.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

Is it? Pray tell show your working.

Or do you think the difference is 'choice'?

I don’t think having a hit TV show gives you some sort moral right to dictate how other people may dress or what constitutes humour. Fascinating as their opinions might be.

Because they had a very well known set of characters who were men dressing as ladies in order to get laughed at and they have now said that they don't think they should be doing that any more.

If the problem is racism and sexism then it is obviously a different problem to the one being discussed here.

So you really can't see that mocking a marginalised demographic for their identity is really not acceptable any more? Wow. I really thought you were better than that. And yes it is sexist as well as it portrays women as the high heels, short skirt wearing, dolly birds beloved by 70's sitcoms. Does the fact the story is in the Daily Mail not tell you something?

I think the history of drag stretches well over a hundred years, and in entertainment was the norm in the military, navy etc. Cant see what the problem is these days.

Oh great. The "it's traditional for entertainment" excuse. Well done. Bring back public executions and the stocks.

Because they had a very well known set of characters who were men dressing as ladies in order to get laughed at and they have now said that they don’t think they should be doing that any more.

TBH weren’t actually more caricatures of terrible behaviour sort of holding a mirror up to society rather than just a giggle at a bloke deliberately badly dressed as a lady.

I did like the vomiting racist lady and computer says no thou.

Just wanted to thank boriselbrus for their comments, I had no real opinion of the subject and initially thought ‘why the fuss’, but their comments have educated me, I now have a better understanding and can see why it can be so offensive

Just wanted to thank boriselbrus for their comments, I had no real opinion of the subject and initially thought ‘why the fuss’, but their comments have educated me, I now have a better understanding and can see why it can be so offensive

Hear hear. You would have to be activity looking to not comprehend to not have empathy after reading thier clear explanation.

+1 @Houns

A typical case of Political Correctness gone mad, gone mad. Time moves on, public attitudes change but it's a slow process and there is a lot of drag from the old guard, mostly the same people who want to go back to the 1950s, digging their heels in. Probably a generational condition.
(I spotted the puns as I wrote)