[Closed] Vehicle diesel scrapage scheme from April 17, £8.5k trade in ??

http://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/diesel-scrappage-scheme-press-release
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/02/officials-drawing-plans-diesel-scrappage-scheme-cut-emissions/

Work is underway by officials in the Department for Transport and Defra on a scheme to offer cashback or a discount on low-emission cars if people trade in their old polluting vehicles.

A government source confirmed that talks had taken place with the Treasury, which would finance the plan, and officials were developing a scheme that could focus on geographical areas around the country where pollution is worst.

Are we the taxpayer made of money?

Muchoz Graziaz.

So that's euro 4 standard cars? Pre diesel particulate filter essentially?

Well with Brexit on its way it's a good place to start circulating the money around the motor industry before it all moves back to Europe.

But actually I think it's a great idea, hope the Nasty Party include bussss and taxis and all trucks.

Forgive the ignorance of the following question, as it could be ridiculous!

But, if i was looking for a new car after this scheme is in place. Could I search through trader and second hand adverts for a car that fits this scheme perfectly, buy it cheap then take it to trade in and save on a new car the next day?

I'm not planning on doing this by the way. As I have a fantastic 1L Citroen C1 :).
But just thought I'd ask after reading this post.

Cheers
J

As an owner of an 11 year old Touran with a wife looking to buy a new car soon, the sooner this comes in the better.

It's the beginning of the end of cars that burn stuff.

Which is about bloody time.

But actually I think it's a great idea, hope the Nasty Party include bussss and taxis and all trucks.

There will be some sort of restriction on ownership length surely.. wasn't the last one vilified for its lack of length of ownership until all the £100 shit heaps were bought and used as deposits ?

I've got no idea, but 10 year old cars would/possibly/should still fetch strong money even if they kill baby Robins.

I [i]was[/i] planning to run my 17year old Seat Alhambra TDI into the ground....

Err, last time this pushed the prices up of eligible scrappable cars, to reflect the amount they'd attract as trade-in.

The last time this happened in France people traded in old petrol 205s, R5s etc. to buy E4/5 diesels that are now considered worse than the petrol engines they pushed off the road. 🙁

Like last time it will generate more tax and more debt than it cost

Reduce car dependency rather than getting folk signing up to debt because thhy. Reckon they are getting a good deal

More so given the new tax bands starting in April.

I'll be pissed off if it's only diesels.

We've (apparently) done the right thing and run our small petrol fiesta into the ground, and would consider an EV as a replacement. Where's our incentive!

The government will pay a portion of your e.v is that not enough incentive? Don't think you even need to trade your old car.

that not enough incentive

Apparently not, hence them offering another £8.5k.

I don't like these scrapage schemes in general. They benefit those who can afford a new car, which is maybe the top 20% of people. It's not like prices of used 3yr old cars will drop by the same amount and befit everyone else.

So if I chop in my old smelly Diesel and DON'T buy another can I should get maximum cash as that'll be even less polluting.

So if I chop in my old smelly Diesel and DON'T buy another can I should get maximum cash as that'll be even less polluting.

Yup, if they really wanted to make a difference it should be "scrap your car and we'll invest the £8.5k into public transport and bike lanes in your village/area"

or

"scrap your car and we'll invest the £8.5k into buying 30 commuter hybrids and giving one to everyone on your street in an effort to achieve a critical mass of cyclists"

, and officials were developing a scheme that could focus on geographical areas around the country where pollution is worst.

So it's for cars that don't drive very far?

Can I get the fleets of soot belching Octavia Taxi's in Liverpool scrapped?
Worst one I've seen was an 11 plate saloon that seemed to have the James Bond smoke screen add on fitted!

Hmmmmm the Turbo in my 55 plate Yaris diesel has started to get rattly.... but over 60mpg around town is hard to beat.... though that sort of scheme could push me into something else....Only issue I have is I need something that can tow trailer.....

Any good to you ?

[img] [/img]

Hmmm don't quite need a trailer that big, only a Erde 142, will be intrested to see what "eco" cars will covered if the scheme happens.

I'd be surprised at the £8.5k value. That's a helluva generous amount, unless of course that's against a full EV, which I think already get a pretty large discount?

What I don't understand is, I thought that the diesel engine was originally invented to burn a multitude of different fuels. Surely it's the oil industry who should be looking at a replacement fuel to burn, rather than smelly old diesel. My view is probably oversimplified, but you get my point!

So, wheres this alleged £8.5k quoted in any of the articles? Or others.

What I don't understand is, I thought that the diesel engine was originally invented to burn a multitude of different fuels. Surely it's the oil industry who should be looking at a replacement fuel to burn, rather than smelly old diesel. My view is probably oversimplified, but you get my point!

as with any of these scrappage schemes they are not really going to benefit the people who really need to use them.

I run a 15 year old 2 litre diesel estate and a 12 year old diesel freelander. We would like to replace both but I see cars as a waste of money. I am considering either spending up to £5k to replace my estate and up to £9k to change the FL to a newer one.

Other options to replace the estate are a 2nd hand nissan leaf, business lease i3, 2nd hand T5 or a nearly new pickup as a business vehicle and we replace the FL with a smaller more economical car and use the pickup for towing duties.

Buying a new car is not an option I am entertaining and the scrappage doesnt change that. The depreciation in the first couple of years of ownership are WAAAY above the scrappage and I see buying a new car as throwing money down the drain.

still doesn't deal with tyre and brake dust. It also doesn't deal with the way our towns and cities are dominated by motor vehicles to the detriment of people. It doesn't deal with the 2,500 people killed by cars each year.

IF the government was serious about pollution it would look at options that aren't private cars. It won't happen though.

Chris "door a cyclist" Grayling has stated that bikes aren't road users. Which i think nicely sums up his position.

wilburt - Member
It's the beginning of the end of cars that burn stuff.
Which is about bloody time.

does it need to deal with tyre and brake dust? the amount given off is minute, which is obvious when you look at how often you have to change them and how much material is removed each time.

8.5k is the vat on a ~£40k car. depending on the rules behind this (it might be 'up to £8.5k' for example) - it might be simply making the car vat free, rather than an actual discount

40k is some sort of typical car price is it ?

Im sure the folk who are off to buy 40 k cars in april are driving around in their 10year old diesel now....

No they are most likely renting their 2-3 year old diesel just now

@zero

You're like some DM reader clinging on to alt facts.

Do you have a little picture of 'jezza' in your wallet?

it is probably not far off the average cost of a new electric car. The nissan leaf (which is the 'crappiest' electric car I could think of) starts at £27k

Aye and its still extremly prohibitative in its usefulness.

All I remember from the last scrappage scheme is that loads of perfectly serviceable cars, including a lot of classics, were scrapped so that the owner could be 'eco-friendly' when Greenpeace and other Environmental groups were saying that the greenest way to deal with old cars was to keep them running well and for as long as practicable. The biggest cause of pollution is building the things!! If we want to improve air quality in out towns and cities we need to offer alternative ways of getting around them to the internal combustion engine. Bicycles, electric cars, trams, etc.

40k is some sort of typical car price is it ?

Im sure the folk who are off to buy 40 k cars in april are driving around in their 10year old diesel now....

No they are most likely renting their 2-3 year old diesel just now

That's why it'll be used by the lease companies to make their deals look even better!

It also doesn't deal with the way our towns and cities are dominated by motor vehicles to the detriment of people. It doesn't deal with the 2,500 people killed by cars each year.

This.

Well said milky

As I said it's a thinly veiled tax grab enticing people into the new tax regeim while driving up dealer prices again (which happened during the last one )

But, as I said, we will have to prop up the Motor industry when Brexit hits.. it's probably what T'Mo gave Nissan in a Golden Handshake to keep the production here until 2019 when they pack thier bags and head to Hungary.

I have a mk4 golf tdi 2004 that's near the end of its life but even with 8.5k off I still could not replace it with a new equivalent.

So another soot belching banger will replace it instead I exspect

Well with Brexit on its way it's a good place to start circulating the money around the motor industry before it all moves back to Europe.

I fail to see benefits to lots of people. £ 8.5k won't buy me a new car so why bother? Cheaper and easier to keep it. Personally I would rather stop the selfish use of vehicles in the first place. Hoiw much pollution comes from unnecessary travel? Holidays abroad spring to mind. Next day delivery? Driving to ride a bike or go for a walk?
I have yet to see any 100% perfect evidence that buying a new car, with its built in redundancy is less than a decade is more environmentally sound than me keeping my 1986 land rover for another 20 years. Diesel or not.
Alternative transport ideas are bollox. They won't be bug enough to stop effectively the selfish human. People want to drive to the shopping malls(sad buggers) or drive for pleasure purposes. Rural areas will take the hit as usual ( funny how that minority is allowed to be abused) as public transport will never be effective enough any more.
Love the principal but it would be better spent encouraging people to holiday at home, ride bikes, and undo Beeching.

mitsumonkey - Member
Good effort though for trying to shoehorn Brexit into every thread.

Thanks, but your lack of a "P" means we don't take your thoughts seriously.

It's to late for biscuit time ; so pass the hip flask and settle in.

Thanks, but your lack of a "P" means we don't take your thoughts seriously

I have a P, and think your desperation to include Brexit is amusing and agree with mitsumonkey. HTH.

Thanks.

Nothing to contribute to the thread then.

it is probably not far off the average cost of a new electric car. The nissan leaf (which is the 'crappiest' electric car I could think of) starts at £27k

A new Renault Zoe is 15 to 20k will get you 120 miles in any weather conditions, charges overnight at you house in an hour at thousand of charge points. That may not be enough for some but is for most.

It's the glee with which the alt facts brigade churn out their misinformation that makes me wonder what they are really scared of.

which is fine if your car is used for the school run or a short journey to work and back.

I use a combination of my push bike and my electric cargo bike to complete my errands through the week. How ever what if i want to go skiing/or cycling/or running / or camping (which is mostly why i own a car) up the cairngorms at the weekend. Aint goign to be charging it when i get there. I have seen with my own eyes a leafs Miles per charge plummet in -10 (a colleague has one for traveling to and from work where the alternative is 20 miles by bike each way for what is a 6 mile journey by car) I'm prepared to accept the change but its not at its usefulness yet for rural travel - if your in south east england then it may be the best thing ever but in north east scotland - its a no from me- Especially as i cant have a fast charge point at the house due to country supply electric (low amps coming to the house)

@wilburt: One of the worst things about "fake news" and "alternative facts" is the way it's become a rebuttal to someone else's opinion.

He's not claiming that all EVs burst into flames, or that they can only be used when it's not raining so you don't get electrocuted. He's giving his opinion on the things he thinks will limit their uptake.

mrmo and Matt

It's not 2500 deaths, it's 1700.

These are caused by ALL vehicles, so even if you banned private cars it probably wouldn't change due to in increase in other vehicles and people walking and cycling.

And we pretty much have the safest roads for a country of our size in the world.

I do think this scheme could be a partial success, but the success will only be realised if folks committing to new purchases have faith in both the economic outlook and have a vehicle that fits the current criteria (whatever that is, since we're not clear)

I would be more convinced if this scheme actually targeted the major polluting vehicles like taxis, busses and trucks and ambulances and other service vehicles including the military.

As is, it's falling to the general public to fund a bit part scheme in times of upheaval and uncertainty.

I'll agree to some extent my willfull angst over Brexit does indeed annoy and possibly derail threads, sorry about that but in my defence Y'oHoneur my point made earlier is this scheme is flawed in so many ways that it will hardly be of benefit to anyone in real terms.

And I do think it's to appease the Motor Industry in the first instance, with a thin veil of social responsibility as the main soundbite.

It'll be most interesting to see the full details as they are released, and where in the country it is targeted at/to and the cries of "it's not fair, why can't we...." by the Press and Public alike.

we pretty much have the safest roads for [b]for drivers, not pedestrians or cyclists,[/b] for a country of our size in the world

FTFY

Alternative transport ideas are bollox. They won't be bug enough to stop effectively the selfish human.

Other countries have much greater public transport usage. Aren't they human?

I do think ideas like this are economic stimulus dressed up as green measures though.

the alternative is 20 miles by bike each way for what is a 6 mile journey by car

Where?

aberdeen ; westhill - dyce.

Your welcome to try the 6 mile direct road by bike. I assure you will be knocked off before the weeks out trying to do it at rush hour.

aberdeen ; westhill - dyce.

Interesting. Google gives a cycling route along what looks like a pretty low quality trail. I wonder if being in Scotland it lacks the distinction between different types of off-road? Looks like it might be nice in the dry....

i use said trail through the moor it in the dry when i want to ride by mountain bike. Its a mountain bike trail, certainly not conducive to a non cyclist taking up cycling to get to his work.

theres a reason it doesnt have houses on it. Its wet even in the dry and in the wet its a bog - they have put boardwalk across the worst of it.

Realistically you need to cycle into sheddocksley and then down the howes for a safe cycle path route.

increases in average trip lengths since
the 1970s, which rose over 50% to 7 miles in 2014

id argue that its the average use that needs to change - but thats not going to happen.

we are heading towards WALL-E state 😉

we all know diesels dont like small journeys - they are almost self restricting as they go bang these days if you use them for small journeys exclusively. How many big bills before people start using alternative methods.

mrmo and Matt

It's not 2500 deaths, it's 1700.

These are caused by ALL vehicles, so even if you banned private cars it probably wouldn't change due to in increase in other vehicles and people walking and cycling.

And we pretty much have the safest roads for a country of our size in the world.

Safe because everyone has been scared off the roads? why is it that kids don't cycle? Why do so few adults cycle any more.

as for the 2500, v 1700, i was going from memory but if we add pollution in, much of which is traffic related we get 40000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35629034

with an average trip length of 7 miles, i think we can probably state with some confidence that even if we went crazy and that doubled again over the next twenty years, and you were doing that 3 times a day, then a vehicle with a ( reliable ) range of only 100 miles would be more than adequate for most users needs.

But it's not about 'average' trip length. Average doesn't mean that's what everyone's doing. Most people do lots of short trips then the occasional long one. People are a bit wary of shelling out £15k on a car then still being stuck when they want to go up to Mum and Dad's at the other end of the country.

BMW's car club isn't a bad idea.

The last (and only, to date) scrappage scheme was designed to boost the car industry, so not much comparison with this one, which is designed to reduce particulates (not NOx which is still high in later diesels). No scrappage scheme deals with overall energy use including the energy used to build a new car, or the problems with disposing of old batteries (maybe not a big deal if they can be recycled - IANAE).

I think the manufactures are looking at those non average trips. Being able to fulfil them is part of the sense of freedom people want when they get a car.

A true EV zeolot would say they are possible if you plan and the cars help you do that, but we don't like planning.

I know Fiat in California offer a one day a month car hire for the big trips but perhaps the only real answer is by having two or more cars.

So for families like mine with three cars, we can keep hold of an oil burner for the long trips and an EV for everyday use.

So I realise that wouldn't work for everyone but it would work and increasingly does for lots of people.

I have a test of a Zoe at the weekend, I'll let you know what its like.

But it's not about 'average' trip length. Average doesn't mean that's what everyone's doing. Most people do lots of short trips then the occasional long one. People are a bit wary of shelling out £15k on a car then still being stuck when they want to go up to Mum and Dad's at the other end of the country.

how often do you go to mum and dad's?

Monthly, easily in our case. It's 75 miles away, and we might only be there 5 hours. And we might then go somewhere else whilst we're there. So if we had a Tesla we might squeeze by, but no chance in a leaf. I doubt we're that unusual.

So even if a Tesla could be relied upon to do that kind of distance, you're asking people to buy a £30k car? For most people that's pretty ludicrous.

Now don't get me wrong - I love the idea of EV, but there are still big reasons why they aren't desirable for a main family car for a lot of people. They'd be brilliant for most people's second cars, but even £15k on a second car is only accessible to a small section of the population.

So for families like mine with three cars, we can keep hold of an oil burner for the long trips and an EV for everyday use.

Yes - if you can afford one. I'd try pretty hard to replace our Prius with an EV, which will be when it dies, because it's become a second car.

So del in your alternate reality 😉 what your saying is I should spend 30k on a car that I only use at weekends ?

I haven't spent more than 4k on a car in my life. Even with the scrap scheme I don't see that changing any time soon

@bikebouy leave the Brexit stuff out eh ?

Diesel cars have been a humugous scam propped up by meaningless emissions testing. The writing is on the wall. In Paris (I think all of France) now you have to buy a small Vignette (sticker) for €5 based on car age and fuel type and they will be used to ban certain cars (ie old diesels) totally on days when pollution is bad.

I gave diesel a go with 2.7TDI 2007 car and whikst a great motor over 100k mikes you didn't have to be a scientist to work out all the soot coming oit of the back wasn't good (and yes I understand the difference in particulates)

Courtesy of the Beeb.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38880019

Monthly, easily in our case. It's 75 miles away, and we might only be there 5 hours. And we might then go somewhere else whilst we're there. So if we had a Tesla we might squeeze by, but no chance in a leaf. I doubt we're that unusual.

@ both mol and TR, i'm not advocating everyone go out and buy them, and i did also say i wasn't in the market for a new car myself, but the proposal that they are not viable as a means of transport is not, for many people, actually true, is it?
plenty of people gadding about in new motors, you only have to look at rush-hour traffic to see that. leased/pcp/hp whatever, those things filter on to the SH market. in ten years they'll be affordable for a lot of people. if it's not for you ( for whatever reason ), then that's fine, for a while at least you'll have choice. 😉

Aren't low emissions cars part of the problem though? Diesel's have low CO2 but high NOx? Or have they fixed that with the new rules?

I'd like to know what the proportions are for private, fleet etc, as every time I go to our royal mail depot to collect a parcel I am met with something like this

[img] [/img]

with upto maybe 20 diesel vans parked up, ready to be used on successions of short stop-start urban journeys. And I'm sat in an office in central Oxford where all I can here outside the window are stationary, idling diesel buses and coaches.

I commute by bike or train and my ancient diesel Alhambra (which was 10 years old when I bought it!) only gets used for occasional longer journeys (be it a CX race 30 miles away, a trip to Wales or in extremes to the Alps) so if/when it dies or gets legislated off the road I can't justify the expense of replacing it with a brand new car so it'll be something used anyway.

How did we get into this position where the governments got the facts on diesel vehicles sooo wrong?
Who advised them ?
Who lied to them ?
If people lied on such a scale why is no one going to jail ?

It seams like a win win again for the car manufacturer's at the public expense. 😡

How did we get into this position where the governments got the facts on diesel vehicles sooo wrong?
Who advised them ?
Who lied to them ?
If people lied on such a scale why is no one going to jail ?

It seams like a win win again for the car manufacturer's at the public expense.

No need for conspiracy theories.

Quick history of car emissions:

1) Petrol engines dominate in early cars because diesels were crap.
2) Diesel engines take over in bigger vehicles because they used so much less fuel (we're talking 1940's here with the adoption of things like swirl chambers making diesel usable on the road).
3) 1980's and smog is a problem, so petrol engines get catalysts and electronic fuel injection, making them about as efficient as they're ever likely to be with very clean exhaust emissions (relatively).
4) 1990's Diesels get common rail injection when Fiat invents it, almost goes bankrupt, Bosch buys the patent and sells it to everyone.
5) 2000's/2010's, petrol gets variable valve timing, direct injection and turbo's bringing it's efficiency up further but still not quite diesel.

Politically smog was a big deal in the 80's, so we got rid of the worst offenders (VOC emissions from petrol engines). There's a political element to this, Thatcher wanted to push forward lean burning petrol engines as an alternative, the EU wanted catalysts. With hindsight she may have been right (the latest petrol engines are lean burning and have catalysts but at the time the two weren't compatible).

Politically CO2 was a big deal in the late 2000's so we went after the worst offenders (big petrol engines). So anything bigger than a Mondeo became a diesel.

Now NOX and particulates are a political issue, but this time it's diesel engines that are the problem, they're no worse than they were in the 70's (they're better) there's just far more of them.

jambalaya - Member
@bikebouy leave the Brexit stuff out eh ?

Erm..

😆

Electric cars can be very cheap. Just buy them second hand:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/10473637/Why-prices-for-used-electric-cars-are-shocking.html

Why don't I see hybrid vans? A hybrid Hiace seems like an obvious idea.

Del - Member

leased/pcp/hp whatever, those things filter on to the SH market. in ten years they'll be affordable for a lot of people

Unless the battery dies- taking a Tesla S as an example (just because it was the first google hit) the battery warranty is 8 years and 125000 miles (*), at which point they expect it to have degraded by around 30%, and the replacement cost is $12000 US.

Remains to be seen how this will really pan out but it seems pretty much accepted that an electric car has a shorter realistic lifespan than an ice car. A 10 year old Tesla may well be one of the shittiest used propositions of all time. Who fancies buying a car for £2000 that might need a replacement part that costs £10000? Puts my new turbo in perspective... (equally, who fancies trying to sell that car?)

(* It's not a new-for-old warranty, they reserve the right to fit an equivalent recon battery in the typical degradation profile so your 7 year old dead battery may be replaced by something that performs like a 7 year old good battery. It also doesn't include that expected lifetime degradation)

$12k is a lot, but £2k is no worse than a £500 banger and £1500 of fuel for the year.

And if manufacturers standardise their batteries (even just within their own company), then leasing a battery becomes easy, they just lease you the battery util the car itself dies, then lease it to someone else. So you're only paying for the years you use the battery for.

And $12k is probably what a dealer would charge to do an engine swap on a modern car that's done 125,000 miles.

Why don't I see hybrid vans? A hybrid Hiace seems like an obvious idea.

your theory works assuming electricity is free tinas....

your theory works assuming electricity is free tinas....

It is if you own a Tesla and charge it on the street.

Or if you charge at home it works out at 3p/mile. Petrol costs about 13p. So we're talking about £350 Vs £1500. Even if the battery cost was £1000/year it's still cheaper (assuming the IC engine has perfect reliability and the battery does need replacing).