[Closed] VAG Diesel Owners - what now?

A Third World country has solved the emissions problem.

All VWs will now be recalled to the dealer for this modification.

[img] ?oh=7a2e1073e245b2146712176dc4fd40b0&oe=5689C68A[/img]

Horse shit!

The problem with the test cycle is that it flatters big, powerful diesel cars which aren't far off idle during the test but as you'll see every day in London, get thrashed away from the lights by the people who buy them.

So the 'fix' for UK cars has been announced. However I'm still a bit baffled as to what they are actually fixing.

Removing cheat? Yes ok, but pointless once the cars are on the road.

Reducing CO2, NOx emissions? But to meet what target? In which test?

They'll be modifying vehicles to bring them inline with the claimed emission levels. It's not something that will ever likely be tested on individual vehicles, but I suspect more than one or two will be getting tested post-recall by lots of agencies to ensure the recall is doing what it's supposed to.

On a side note, I suspect the fuel injector suppliers will be getting excited about the imminent orders!

See what you've caused VW?

Hang your heads in shame.

[i]Leonardo DiCaprio puts Volkswagen scandal film on the production line[/i]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/13/leonardo-dicaprio-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-movie?CMP=twt_gu ]http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/13/leonardo-dicaprio-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-movie?CMP=twt_gu[/url]

So fix will mean they'll meet the claimed emission levels.... but what about the claimed fuel consumption and BHP?

Surely they can't just change the injectors, tweak the software and these will remain the same? If so why didn't they do that in the first place?

Well, common sense says that they get increased performance "off" test, but reduced emissions "on" test.

Vis a Vis the natural assumption to reduce off test emissions permantley is to lower fuel use (MPG) and output (BHP).

Clever mapping could also do this. The reason diesel re-mapping invariably increases perfoemance is that factory mapping attempts to meet the tests, so expect the reverse for the fix.

So basically; you'd be a fool to submit your car to a recall... It'll be a different car as a result. Like a backwards superchip.

Glad (but very surprised) to find out that my VW is not affected by this clusterfugg.

They may have to "incentivise" owners to get the work done.

I hadn't checked the VIN of our Golf but presumed it was affected (1.6 Bluemotion) - got a letter through from VW today confirming that 'a service action including your car will be required to rectify the issue. Technical solutions are currently being developed blah blah blah...'

I won't be head of the queue for this one.

They may have to "incentivise" owners to get the work done.

A tech question - how do the NOx, particulate, CO2 and other emissions compare with previous generations of engines and cars? Have they gone up or down?

Wife got a letter through from the Seat dealer this morning saying that her Ibiza (2 litre TDi) is part of this recall fiasco....oops!!

In general terms, NOx and particulates (PM) are on a downward trend by legislation and there have been some big jumps from stage to stage. I think there are some infographics earlier in the thread which illustrate. CO2 is more of a customer perceived issue as it affects vehicle tax and fuel consumption. I would say general trend is slightly downwards or static recently. Could be much better but its a trade off with NOx.

Interestingly I found that the NOX value - presumably as tested - is printed on my V5.

got a letter through from VW today confirming that 'a service action including your car will be required to rectify the issue

What 'issue' specifically?

Got the same letter today.

"technical solutions are currently being developed "

Hmmm... Hobbling remap in the offing? I don't think so...

www.volkswagen.co.uk/dieselinfo for more

I got my letter today from Skoda. If they cannot guarantee that it will meet the emissions without a loss in mpg or power they can have the thing back simple as. I'll have my money and deposit back thank you very much.

Letter received here too.

Unfortunately ours is s/h so probably can whistle.

I've just been at a talk by someone who works for an arm of BMW in a role which makes you have confidence he knows about these things. He claimed his engineers had been all over VW's cars and couldn't make the test numbers work with the hardware in front of them. The implication was they (bmw) knew it was coming. The word cheapskates was used more than once.

I don't think it will matter if the car is second hand or not. It was still sold as something it was not. I think they would be mad not to at least attempt the fix even if the car is past the warranty period just to try and rescue their reputation if that's possible.

I think Stoner means he's just going to ignore the recall. VAG will have to offer to fix all vehicles, it's not a warranty thing.

If it was technically possible to fix then it would have been implemented. I think it's inevitable that they will have to remap with either lower performance to maintain co2 limits and ved thresholds OR remap with higher co2 production to maintain performance. In he latter case I would expect they will have to come to an arrangement either with hmrc or owners to cover higher ved costs

Quite. I wont go for a remap unless I can choose to have higher ved compensated

Letter landed on our mat this morning... My initial reaction is nah I like the way it is now thank you..

I've just been at a talk by someone who works for an arm of BMW in a role which makes you have confidence he knows about these things.

Big Dave from The Winchester says dogs can't look up.

I've just been at a talk by someone who works for an arm of BMW in a role which makes you have confidence he knows about these things. He claimed his engineers had been all over VW's cars and couldn't make the test numbers work with the hardware in front of them. The implication was they (bmw) knew it was coming. The word cheapskates was used more than once.

It may be me, but explain please? Are you saying a BMW tech alledgedly states that VW mechanicals could never make it work, hence the cheat, and they are cheapskates for not investing in mechanical technology when they should have? Or BMW have been cheapskates in some way? This would imply other manufacturers are technicslly ahead of VW?

I ask 'cause I own a BMW with a 2.0d...

@ Drac 🙂

Yes, I know how it sounds. Loathed to put his name as I'm not sure he would appreciate being identified commenting on a competitor. But very, very senior would not be an understatement. Really interesting evening.

Did anyone mention BMW swirl flaps?

Kryton, if this guy is talking with all the facts you should be safe.

He inferred VW were cheapskates by not doing at much as they could have with the mechanical side of their product to save money and making up with a part time (for testing) software fix. There was no way with the hardware they were selling that they could have achieved both the emissions figures and the performance figures legitimately and BMW knew that before the scandal broke.

Tbh the BMW thing is logical. If they could have made the thing work properly with a quick remap and injector change then surely they wouldn't have needed the cheat in the first place, no?

So this will imply that the "fix" is quite a major change then - obviously I'm guessing but it sounds like the VW's are mapped for performance yet require the cheat to meet emissions out of the factory. So, probably a significant performance down grade to meet the test without the cheat device then. Is the euro 5 GTD about to be come a , well, "d"?

I reckon they should only be allowed to keep the cheat software and limp home mode. The rest of the software that allows illegal levels of emissions should be removed. 💡

We got one today for our Seat.

The initial implications, not in writing, of not going with the "fix" is that it could invalidate the remaining warranty 😕

I need all 177 of my horses to hell with the environment 😆

letmetalktomark - Member

We got one today for our Seat.

The initial implications, not in writing, of not going with the "fix" is that it could invalidate the remaining warranty

That's hilarious. Who/what/where is this implied?

Anything less than retrofitting a urea based system and their original cost-saving ploy has worked. A software fix will cost them peanuts, less than it cost GM its airbag/ignition switch recall, and the cars will still produce high levels of NOx. I can't see Europe and its lobby sensitive bureaucrats insisting on a urea system but I hope the California EPA does.

[url= http://www.ehow.com/about_6691051_urea-injection_.html ]urea to reduce NOx[/url]

So does anyone actually know exactly what the "fix" entails yet?

Edukator - Troll

Anything less than retrofitting a urea based system and their original cost-saving ploy has worked. A software fix will cost them peanuts,

How exactly did you do the maths on that one Edukator? I would have thought a massive recall and remap would be extremely costly from a time/labour perspective.

compared to installing a urea treatment unit, then yes, a software patch is going to cost "peanuts".

As I see it there are only three feasible routes (for the UK market at least)
1) de-tune (probably quite a way) to reduce NOx and maintain CO2 classification
2) offer to de-tune to reduce NOx, but not so much as in 1) and forsake the CO2 levels and pay hmrc a sum cover higher VED due for the life of each vehicle (in order to leave it at it's current VED class),
OR 3) leave the car unchanged and compensate all owners (new & s/h) and allow the vehicle to be reclassified in the hmrc database for future VED.

Stoner - Member

compared to installing a urea treatment unit, then yes, a software patch is going to cost "peanuts".

Yes. I would say so. But "peanuts" is a fairly vague term, and I was replying to Edukators use of that word to describe the cost of a massive recall and remap. Installing a Urea system would be "peanuts" compared to giving everyone a new car as well as a hot stone massage and some champagne, maybe a hand job.

1) de-tune (probably quite a way) to reduce NOx and maintain CO2 classification

This has already been tested, I think it's in the region of 15-20 bhp and 30lbs ft, I can't find the link at the minute though.

Edit: Apparently it's a difference of 2 bhp, 12 lbs ft at peak, but mid/low range bhp is down by 15bhp and 32lbs ft.

I think ours only started with 130 odd bhp in the first place, so that's going to be annoying isnt it.

Stoner

I think ours only started with 130 odd bhp in the first place, so that's going to be annoying isnt it.

Well that was for the 2.0 TDI 140, so I presume it'll vary for each engine. It'd probably be noticeable the first time you drove it away from the dealership if you like to "make progress" but it's debateable whether the average diesel box driver would really miss it.

I received my letter from VW yesterday. Really is beyond belief. No apology and the royal crest stuck on it to give them more gravitas! It's almost as though we're meant to feel sorry for them as they made a genuine mistake.
Vw, in my opinion you miss sold me a car. I bought the car as I liked the way it drove. You can't just expect to change that and for me to be great full to you for "doing your utmost to minimise the inconvenience".

Now your offering to (most likely) de-tune it. But hey that's ok as you'll make my car shi**er "and at no cost to me".

I see there are a lot of these ambulance chaser type law firms now looking to sign people up to take action. Does anybody know anything about these? No doubt you'd end up giving most of anything you were awarded to the law firm?

dalesjoe

Vw, in my opinion you miss sold me a car. I bought the car as I liked the way it drove. You can't just expect to change that and for me to be great full to you for "doing your utmost to minimise the inconvenience".

Now your offering to (most likely) de-tune it. But hey that's ok as you'll make my car shi**er "and at no cost to me".

Are you practicing that speech before you go down to the VW dealers to complain? I think it needs work tbh.

The dealers are as much the victim in this as the customers. I think Joe puts it perfectly but it needs to be aimed at VW HQ.

Is there any evidence yet that these car don't meet EURO regulations? Everything I've seen is about not meeting the US NOX regulations and the software cheat was to pass these.

So from what Ive seen so far, there's no need to alter the performance/mapping of EURO models. The FIX may just be removing the cheat software which would never have come in to operation in Europe anyway.

If that's the case all your cars will drive just the same with or without the FIX.

If the above is correct, then no one in the EU has been miss-sold a car, it's just as clean as the advertising etc. And the ambulance chasers hopefully won't make a bean.

all this talk of VED re-classification if you don't have the remap/solution.

if you go for an aftermarket remap, should you be declaring this to DVLA?

is there going to be a market for the car tuners to 'restoring' your car to its original performance?

Edukator makes a very good point about the dealers being victims too. I would imagine a large number of dealers are looking at getting a financial settlement from VW.

Strictly speaking those here demanding a full refund may find legally VW is only liable for the repair / compensation for loss of value. It's not as clear cut as some people think, it may well be the cheat software only impacts the Californian emissions test and if the cars would have passed the Euro tests anyway at the time they where sold then there is no wrong doing (Apologies of this has been covered in earlier pages, I recall seeing discussions on Euro 5 vs 6 tests)

No, I'm not practicing a speech thank you. I'm just somewhat pissed off after having shelled out the best part of £13k four weeks ago on a car that may well end up being worse to drive and certainly worth a lot less if I decided to sell it on. I bought a car with 170 bhp. If I wanted the less powerful engine I'd have bought that.

I agree completely that the dealers are also victims of this. I bought mine second hand and have no issue with the guys that sold me it. I actually feel for any car deslers with VAG diesels sst on their books right now.

Stoner - Member

Unfortunately ours is s/h so probably can whistle.

Maybe not, I once had a letter to recall my 6 year old Passat (at the time) I was the 3rd owner. I think they get the keeper details from the DVLA.

If there's a power drop, I won't be giving mine to them.

All the evidence from the US testing says that the cars wouldn't have met the EURO 5 NOx targets without the cheat software. If the cars get below the 2009 180mg/km on the Euro test without the cheat software and a remap VW won't have problem in Europe. We won't know that until the remaps are released and someone can test the cars.

I'm just somewhat pissed off after having shelled out the best part of £13k four weeks ago on a car that may well end up being worse to drive and certainly worth a lot less if I decided to sell it on. I bought a car with 170 bhp.

2nd hand I presume?

Edukator - Troll

All the evidence from the US testing says that the cars wouldn't have met the EURO 5 NOx targets without the cheat software. If the cars get below the 2009 180mg/km on the Euro test without the cheat software and a remap VW won't have problem in Europe. We won't know that until the remaps are released and someone can test the cars.

Have they actually been retested to see if they meet EURO 5 standards, by an approved testing agency?

Surely they need to be tested prior to the remap.

Or is this all just supposition based on a completely different test carried out on another continent?

All the evidence...

It's not a supposition but it is based on a completely different test carried out on another continent, the results were all over the nNet a few weeks back. And logic, if VW's current models met Euro 5 without the cheat software there wouldn't be a recall.

Edukator - Troll

It's not a supposition but it is based on a completely different test carried out on another continent, the results were all over the nNet a few weeks back. And logic, if VW's current models met Euro 5 without the cheat software there wouldn't be a recall.

The US cheat software would not activate under the Euro test. It was written to run under the specific testing that the US regulations require. So if they required a cheat to meet EURO 5 regulations it would have to be a separate cheat!

Alternatively, they wrote one map that 'met' worldwide regulations, albeit with a secondary cheat map builtin to meet the US regulations. And the EURO recall could be to 'just' remove the illegal secondary map.

andytherocketeer - Member

All the evidence...

what evidence?
all I've seen is media sensationalism, lots of rumour and supposition, and millions of people (and journalists that did journalism at college, rather than automotive engineerinf) that have suddenly become experts overnight in the petrochemical industry and technology behind how a car engine works.

^^^^^ this.

I thought they'd already said that the 1.6 needed an injector change?

The US cheat software would not activate under the Euro test.

Which allows for [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards ]cycle beating[/url]

Edukator - Troll

The US cheat software would not activate under the Euro test.

Now that really does need a link to back it up because the Euro 5 test uses exactly the same unrealistically light loads as the EPA test.

I'm not saying they haven't cheated the EURO test with the same method nor that they have either. But if they have it must be a different cheat map to the US one.

For the ECU to switch to the cheat map it had to recognize a specific set of circumstances. The US test may be just as unrealistic to real life driving as the EURO one, BUT the testing is undertaken differently so the EURO cheat (if there is one) would need to be looking for a totally different set of circumstances.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_European_Driving_Cycle ]EURO test procedure[/url]

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP-75 ]US test procedure[/url]

As the Euro test is much easier to pass (on the NOX front) than the US one, and EURO cheat could be much less restrictive to the engines performance.

There's a graphic representation and comparison of the tests [url= http://www.unep.org/transport/gfei/autotool/approaches/information/test_cycles.asp#European ]here[/url]. Given that the Euro test is even more gentle than the US one I don't see why the cheat software wouldn't recognise it as abnormally light use. VW have already said that the same software concerns all cars in all markets.

VW have already said that the same software concerns all cars in all markets

But not that it activates anywhere other than the US test

[i]Associated Press: BREAKING: Volkswagen discloses additional suspect software in 2016 diesels, delaying new models.[/i]

oops.

I got my letter yesterday for 2009 audi A6 with the 2.0tdi 140bhp.

No information on the 'fix' other than it'll be early in the new year.

I'd feel amazingly smug due to having sold the car a few weeks before all this broke, except I replaced with a (yep you guessed it) VW..... This one's got a 3.0tdi engine so not sure if affected,
I also have another 11 Passats, Golfs and Tourans mainly with the 1.6tdi engines (one 2.0) all of which are leased, so hopefully I won't be impacted too hard for those!

tinybits - Member

I got my letter yesterday for 2009 audi A6 with the 2.0tdi 140bhp.

No information on the 'fix' other than it'll be early in the new year.

I'd feel amazingly smug due to having sold the car a few weeks before all this broke, except I replaced with a (yep you guessed it) VW..... This one's got a 3.0tdi engine so not sure if affected,
I also have another 11 Passats, Golfs and Tourans mainly with the 1.6tdi engines (one 2.0) all of which are leased, so hopefully I won't be impacted too hard for those!

According to the info that VAG sent me (I've got a Seat) only the 2.0 1.2 and 1.6 engines are affected so your V6 is fine.

Reading between the lines it's all the Common Rail Diesels (aka the CR engines) as apposed to the earlier PD engines.

Which pretty much means any VW, Seat, Audi, Skoda, 4 pot diesel they've sold since 2009, certainly 2010 onwards so your lease cars will all be subject to the recall.

Just been discussing this with our site accountant at work. She's not in the slightest bit worried about the performance of her 2.0 Golf, as "they've just got to change the software a bit". Couldn't grasp that the software is actually controlling the engine.

I'm glad she's in charge of spreadsheets, and not going near the operational bits.

Well, inevitable has happened the lovely people of Leigh Day have sent me an e-mail

"VW owner? you may be entitled to compensation"

For what exactly???

I'm not Californian, I had no idea what amount of NOx it put out, or what it was meant to put out - I knew the Co2, but that's it.

[i]Maybe not, I once had a letter to recall my 6 year old Passat (at the time) I was the 3rd owner. I think they get the keeper details from the DVLA.[/i]

Yes, but that was for a recall and there is legislation that covers that and how it works - this isn't a recall as per the legislation.

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/help/voluntaryrecallsystem.htm

Well in Germany it's going to be a forced recall. They still haven't said exactly what will be done' but have said that the 1.6 engines will require new parts as well as a remap.

[url= http://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft/wirtschaft/behoerde-ordnet-zwangs-rueckruf-bei-vw-an-43018298.bild.html ]Bild[/url]

Well in Germany it's going to be a forced recall. They still haven't said exactly what will be done' but have said that the 1.6 engines will require new parts as well as a remap.

Bild

Not only in Germany, but compulsory recall Europe wide, affecting 8.5m cars in Europe, including hardware modifications...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/58975016-720f-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3olB2LSF0

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/77499ae6-7354-11e5-bdb1-e6e4767162cc.html#axzz3olB2LSF0

A calm piece on possible origination of the defeat device
http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/an-engineering-theory-of-the-volkswagen-scandal

I wouldn't feel too sorry for the dealers. Apparently Virtue group have been buying VW based dealerships ie Skoda Seat and Audi as well as VW so they can cash in on the bonanza of repairing all these cars that VW will be paying for!

Although warranty rates are not that profitable for dealers, the car maker sets them at something like 70% of the list price for normal work on a per garage basis. The wife has just been auditing all her dealers to set their warranty rates for the next 12 months...

Why don't people just say; no ta, I'd rather keep my car performing as per when I bought it, thanks. I'm fairly sure they are not going to change the VED massively on cars that have already been on the roads for five years, surely?

I think most people are going to wait and see how the recall effects the way they drive - there's bound to be a few super keen types who'll jump in early.

Unless it somehow improves things I probably won't have mine done - if I had a 1.6 instead of a 2.0 I'd be tempted though, injectors seem to be one of those things that die eventually and always cost a fortune a fresh set will likely last you as long as you keep the car.

My landlord friend has just been able to get out of the lease contract for his Amarok as VW has effectively breached it. Total lease cost of £75 for two years i belive.

v8ninety - Member
... I'm fairly sure they are not going to change the VED massively on cars that have already been on the roads for five years, surely?

If it is justified, they should, but it's VW who should be paying the difference...

I wouldn't feel too sorry for the dealers. Apparently Virtue group have been buying VW based dealerships ie Skoda Seat and Audi as well as VW so they can cash in on the bonanza of repairing all these cars that VW will be paying for!

Cant you see there is some serious "brushing under the rug" going on, stop asking difficult questions.

epicyclo - Member

v8ninety - Member
... I'm fairly sure they are not going to change the VED massively on cars that have already been on the roads for five years, surely?

If it is justified, they should, but it's VW who should be paying the difference...

Not in the UK anyway, the Government said very early on that it had no intention of reclassifying any existing vehicles.

More importantly VED is based on Co2 emissions, not NOx/

BTW a new scandal is about to be revealed.

You know when you're in a lift and a foul miasma becomes apparent and folk always blame the homeless looking guy?

Well, it's actually VW owners, They've been getting away with emissions fraud for years...