[Closed] VAG Diesel Owners - what now?

BMW sell a 2.0 4 pot which supposedly produces more power and torque than the VAG engine...

Genuine question - does the VAG engine have 2 turbos bolted to it in a twin scroll arrangement? Might account for the difference.

They probably won't get hit during this particular scandal though since it's regarding diesel particulates not mpg.

This particular scandal was actually about NOx - not PM, fuel economy, or even CO2. Although it now seems to have mushroomed to include all of the above, and sparked a debate about real world emissions versus test scenarios. A good debate to have IMHO, but we can't blame all the problems with the system on VW alone, its been broken for a long time, and Governments have been implicated in it as well as they haven't wanted to upset the applecart.

Kryton57 - .

Genuine question - does the VAG engine have 2 turbos bolted to it in a twin scroll arrangement? Might account for the difference.

A twin scroll is a single turbo. The only twin turbo VAG diesel I am aware of is the 3.0 Biturbo.

perthmtb

This particular scandal was actually about NOx - not PM

My mistake, I knew it was about NOx but I was lumping them in using particulates as a catch all term, incorrectly I guess.

it might be and that might be my misinterpretation, but that 2.0d has two turbos.

[i]In contrast, the Variable Twin Turbo technology used in BMW diesel engines uses a large and a small turbocharger connected in series. At low speeds air enters the inactive large turbocharger and is compressed in the small one. At mid-range speeds the air in the large turbocharger is pre-compressed before being highly compressed in the small turbocharger. At high speeds only the large turbocharger is in use. This two-tiered charging enables extremely low consumption values, in relation to performance, and easy to control response from the powerful BMW diesel engines.
[/i]

If I were a legislator I'd impose retro-fitting of a urea based system that other manufacturers such as Peugeot has been using to pass the tests without cheating.

They already have it on some new engines, and I think it's been in the US for a while.

I'm amazed at how ill-informed people are about this when it's a simple thing that's happened.

a urea based system that other manufacturers such as Peugeot has been using to pass the tests [s]without cheating[/s].

It's been fitted on some VAGs since 2009

There was an "insider" on German TV who claimed the decision not to go with a urea based system and cheat on VW's smaller engines was down to cost. They could do it properly but it would have made the cars more expensive which would have reduced both margins and market share.

molgrips - Member
It's not as if they are selling cars with vast amounts more BHP/Torque per litre than their competitors and advertising that they are hugely greener
BMW are though.
BMW are probably lying about their power/torque and performance figures, they've got form for it
It's also the easiest thing to fib about as it's not officially measured and it's not easy to replicate.

Which BMW's don't have accurate figures? Which do you suspect are probably being lied about?

I've no idea if they are lying or not.

I just recalled the 3 series with something like 170bhp and 109g/kg CO2 that was emblazoned across the side of a bmw dealer I saw a few years ago. Which seems much more than other manufacturers, or at least it did at the time

However, that doesn't mean that it'll produce a lot of NOx in normal driving of course.

There was an "insider" on German TV who claimed the decision not to go with a urea based system and cheat on VW's smaller engines was down to cost. They could do it properly but it would have made the cars more expensive which would have reduced both margins and market share.

I think that's the crux of it. The technology to reduce NOx is well understood and widely available, but it has cost and performance ramifications. VW couldn't meet the stringent US NOx standards and still sell a small diesel engine that had good performance and fuel economy, while keeping the cost down for a US market which won't pay a premium for a diesel. So they cheated. And they got caught.

Others either took the hit to their margins and installed expensive NOx reduction technology, or stayed away from the US diesel car market. VW's arrogance was it's downfall.

Just curious as my friend runs a remapping business (specialising in bmw) and of all the manufacturers he finds BMW & Toyota to be the closest to manufacture BHP figures. I don't know about any other data than bhp, other figures could of course not be accurate. The one you describe sounds like an E9x 320d.

I don't imagine the bhp is the figure that's being lied about.

Incidentally - does your mate test for NOx emissions, out of interest?

molgrips that is the current N47 Unit tuned to 163bhp. fill your boots here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N47

It can be difficult to prove or disprove manufacturers performance figures. Stated performance figures in the brochure will be at the crank but a dyno measures it at the wheels. There will be a loss through the drive train and this can vary greatly. It can be guessed at (relatively accurately) but it's still a guess.

[i] perthmtb - Member 
I think that's the crux of it. The technology to reduce NOx is well understood and widely available, [b]but it has cost and performance ramifications[/b]. VW couldn't meet the stringent US NOx standards and still sell a small diesel engine that had good performance and fuel economy, while keeping the cost down[/i]

This was the point I was making (poorly) on the previous page, with comments about R and D.
Even though the urea system may be well documented, even deployed in vehicles produced by other OEMs.
Each OEM will still need to develop their system for those engines which require such a solution/emissions controls.

Or you just develop some code, a map for test compliance and away you go.
It almost certainly has to be cost driven, any way you cut it. To save costs to increase margins, to save on projected costs improving current engines or to avoid the costs to develop new engines.

New IC engine development has massive costs and long lead times.

I've just read Mercedes, Mitsubishi, Honda and Mazda are likely to make announcements in the next few days about emissions tests.

Linky ref pjays post http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row

This could all get a bit ridiculous - of course the cars aren't going to produce the same emissions levels in an on-road test. This doesn't mean the manufacturers are cheating though - it just means the test is massively massively flawed. Hopefully the pressure will come down on those who make the legislation rather than the manufacturers.

Although obviously if they are cheating than fair enough, but I seriously doubt they are.

This could all get a bit ridiculous - of course the cars aren't going to produce the same emissions levels in an on-road test.

Sounds a little bit like cheating to me. It's on the road they'll be used.

In all honesty, manufacturers should have no right to publish their own findings on mpg and emissions. Those figures should all be reached by a truly independent body and enforced by legislation so the results are what the manufacturers have to publish. I'm not sure about the emissions, I'd hope they are independently sourced, but mpg has been bollocks since forever.

Well my new Golf isn't effected as I didn't buy into the Blumotion ploy.

GTD Drac?

Haven't heard anything about Volvos yet.

Any word?

Yup it is V8

Sounds a little bit like cheating to me. It's on the road they'll be used.

There is a difference between complying fully with emissions legislation that is not representative, and cheating to pass an emissions test. It's the test that is at fault (except VW).

Although mpg values may not be the same as real world - they are all based on EXACTLY the same drive cycle so it's a good way of showing differences between vehicles. Not ideal, but that is what it should be used for. Of course, the manufacturers marketing departments may have other ideas...

Emissions tests are independently witnessed for EU tests so the numbers are correct and can't be manipulated by the manufacturer.

A Third World country has solved the emissions problem.

All VWs will now be recalled to the dealer for this modification.

[img] ?oh=7a2e1073e245b2146712176dc4fd40b0&oe=5689C68A[/img]

Horse shit!

The problem with the test cycle is that it flatters big, powerful diesel cars which aren't far off idle during the test but as you'll see every day in London, get thrashed away from the lights by the people who buy them.

So the 'fix' for UK cars has been announced. However I'm still a bit baffled as to what they are actually fixing.

Removing cheat? Yes ok, but pointless once the cars are on the road.

Reducing CO2, NOx emissions? But to meet what target? In which test?

They'll be modifying vehicles to bring them inline with the claimed emission levels. It's not something that will ever likely be tested on individual vehicles, but I suspect more than one or two will be getting tested post-recall by lots of agencies to ensure the recall is doing what it's supposed to.

On a side note, I suspect the fuel injector suppliers will be getting excited about the imminent orders!

See what you've caused VW?

Hang your heads in shame.

[i]Leonardo DiCaprio puts Volkswagen scandal film on the production line[/i]

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/13/leonardo-dicaprio-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-movie?CMP=twt_gu ]http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/13/leonardo-dicaprio-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-movie?CMP=twt_gu[/url]

So fix will mean they'll meet the claimed emission levels.... but what about the claimed fuel consumption and BHP?

Surely they can't just change the injectors, tweak the software and these will remain the same? If so why didn't they do that in the first place?

Well, common sense says that they get increased performance "off" test, but reduced emissions "on" test.

Vis a Vis the natural assumption to reduce off test emissions permantley is to lower fuel use (MPG) and output (BHP).

Clever mapping could also do this. The reason diesel re-mapping invariably increases perfoemance is that factory mapping attempts to meet the tests, so expect the reverse for the fix.

So basically; you'd be a fool to submit your car to a recall... It'll be a different car as a result. Like a backwards superchip.

Glad (but very surprised) to find out that my VW is not affected by this clusterfugg.

They may have to "incentivise" owners to get the work done.

I hadn't checked the VIN of our Golf but presumed it was affected (1.6 Bluemotion) - got a letter through from VW today confirming that 'a service action including your car will be required to rectify the issue. Technical solutions are currently being developed blah blah blah...'

I won't be head of the queue for this one.

They may have to "incentivise" owners to get the work done.

A tech question - how do the NOx, particulate, CO2 and other emissions compare with previous generations of engines and cars? Have they gone up or down?

Wife got a letter through from the Seat dealer this morning saying that her Ibiza (2 litre TDi) is part of this recall fiasco....oops!!

In general terms, NOx and particulates (PM) are on a downward trend by legislation and there have been some big jumps from stage to stage. I think there are some infographics earlier in the thread which illustrate. CO2 is more of a customer perceived issue as it affects vehicle tax and fuel consumption. I would say general trend is slightly downwards or static recently. Could be much better but its a trade off with NOx.

Interestingly I found that the NOX value - presumably as tested - is printed on my V5.

got a letter through from VW today confirming that 'a service action including your car will be required to rectify the issue

What 'issue' specifically?

Got the same letter today.

"technical solutions are currently being developed "

Hmmm... Hobbling remap in the offing? I don't think so...

www.volkswagen.co.uk/dieselinfo for more

I got my letter today from Skoda. If they cannot guarantee that it will meet the emissions without a loss in mpg or power they can have the thing back simple as. I'll have my money and deposit back thank you very much.

Letter received here too.

Unfortunately ours is s/h so probably can whistle.