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Plenty of knobbers know the rules but choose not to follow them.
There's a lot of discussion on one of the "local town forums" relevant to me at the moment - it's the standard stuff - bins not being collected, parking, Low Traffic Neighbourhoods and cycling on pavements / through red lights / wearing all black / cyclist bingo.
Now the new HC rules are up there with the frothing at the keyboard about entitled cyclists / no road tax / 17-abreast etc. It's the same folk who are complaining about LTNs - saying that roads are for everyone, everyone should share the road etc who seem surprised that (a) cyclists are on the pavement and (b) that drivers are being asked to drive carefully / bear greater responsibility.
They're so close to joining the dots - cyclists are on the pavements because the roads are dangerous and if you want cyclists on the roads and off the pavements you need to create safe space for them - and in complaining about the dreadful imposition on your freedom not to cut them up you're demonstrating that you're incapable of sharing the road in the first place!
It's also quite amazing how many drivers are huge fans of the Highway Code when it comes to children riding on pavements but absolutely lose their shit when fined for ignoring speed or bus gate / bus lane road signs that are perfectly lawful under the, err, Highway Code...
Funny how so many car/van/lorry drivers are incapable of overtaking a pair of side-by-side cyclists.
And yet can overtake 4 or 5 other cars on a road with double whites down the middle as I have witnessed a fair few times going over the Woodhead...
Twitter is ablaze with red faced anger because cyclists can now ride "in the middle of the road".
@squirrelking - I was briefly enamoured with motoring when I lived in Australia and had a Jap import. The roads were generally much wider, straighter, and relatively traffic-free compared to the UK, however. The weather was also much better.
I hate driving so much these days I'd be unable to do a job that forced me to commute by car. Commuting into Manchester by bicycle is necessary for sanity preservation! 😀
Whilst the theory test in it’s current form isn’t perfect, it surely has to be a better test of knowledge than being asked to correctly identify 3 road sign plates having made it back to the test centre as I was. Assuming most licence holders will have changed from paper licences to photocards which need renewing every 10 years, I really don’t think it would be too difficult to require applicants to take a theory test…?
It could form part of the regular re-test. I'd be in favour of that.
That’s why I’m more than happy to look like a dork wearing a hi-vis all year. Also, I always wear a helmet and use lights and reflectors when dark or low light.
If I’m ever in an accident and it goes to court I want there to be no doubt that a) I’m a responsible cyclist, and b) I made every effort to be seen.
I always find it funny that the people who moan about not being able to see you seem to be travelling in a box with much more brighter and effective lighting than a bicycle light and they actually did see you.
I always find it funny that the people who moan about not being able to see you seem to be travelling in a box with much more brighter and effective lighting than a bicycle light and they actually did see you.
MiL climbed out of a grey car a few weeks ago while asking why all pedestrians and cyclists weren't made to wear high viz...she had consumed her Daily Mail ration that morning
To be fair, she quickly changed her thoughts when we discussed it, and had a rare moment of clarity that the DM is disingenuous on a regular basis.
Just had a look on the comments on Twitter, some absolute nobbers on there.
That’s why I’m more than happy to look like a dork wearing a hi-vis all year. Also, I always wear a helmet and use lights and reflectors when dark or low light.
Sorry I should have made it clear on my post - I was just walking my dog, I wasn't on a bike. He just turned left on a well-lit (20mph speed limit) road and managed not to see me or, despite his apparent understanding of the rules, decided to close-pass me.
I'm all for mandatory retests and I'm also a fan of the car licence mirroring the bike licence where you have to do staged tests to let you operate larger vehicles. There's absolutely no reason that someone who passed their test in a Toyota Aygo should be in control of a SUV / 4 x 4 without further testing.
There’s absolutely no reason that someone who passed their test in a Toyota Aygo should be in control of a SUV / 4 x 4 without further testing.
Why on earth not? Riding a smaller bike compared to a high-powered superbike is a very different proposition than driving a bigger car to the one you passed your test in.
Why on earth not?
For the same reason that you don't pass your PPL in a Cessna then go out and buy a Learjet.
Driving is the ONLY activity where there is not compulsory ongoing training, mandatory certifications and some form of "progression". OK, there's some extra stuff for HGV but in common use, there is no other area of life where you can wander through with literally no other training other than a 60-90 min test in your late teens.
I passed my test in a 1L Nissan Micra. I was given no further info or advice or training on driving anything bigger / more powerful, nothing on towing, nothing on motorway driving...
On the face of it, that's insane! In no other walk of life, in no career would that be allowed.
nothing on towing, nothing on motorway driving…
That is different than further testing to drive larger cars - I tend to agree there should be some especially on motorway driving.
We also have the technology now to stop a car from going faster than the speed limit. This is something I'd like to see mandated on new vehicles.
We also have the technology now to stop a car from going faster than the speed limit. This is something I’d like to see mandated on new vehicles.
We have the technology but it isn't infallible though. I think I have mentioned this before on another thread - near me there is a residential road with the normal speed limit, however it passes a school with a 5mph limit within the grounds and the vehicle thinks it is the speed limit for the road. When my nice new car suddenly started to slow, I quickly switched off the speed limiter function and haven't touched it since.
johndoh
Why on earth not? Riding a smaller bike compared to a high-powered superbike is a very different proposition than driving a bigger car to the one you passed your test in.
Weight
Micra - 1104
BMX X5 - 2510
Top Speed
Micra - 160
X5 - 230
0-60
Micra - 17 seconds
X5 - 5 seconds
Do you honestly think those two machines should be operated on the same licence?
Go forward a few years and imagine the fury of Mr and Mrs Daily-Mail as their expensive autonomous car refuses to endanger other road users 🙂
On the face of it, that’s insane! In no other walk of life, in no career would that be allowed.
As long as it's for recreation, you can go and buy a several tonnes of boat and just head out to sea with absolutely no training.
We have the technology but it isn’t infallible though
Yeah, I've got a courtesy car at the mo, shows speed limits on the dash. I left my work site today and about 30metres (could've been more/less I didn't measure it) up the 40mph road it was still showing the site limit of 10mph. Could be a problem if the engine was limited with 40mph traffic coming up behind you!
Do you honestly think those two machines should be operated on the same licence?
Well the vast majority of people seem to make the transition without major concerns so I'd say so yes. At the end of the day if the new driver is so unaware as to be able to get themselves into trouble in a large and more powerful car after they have passed their test then I would suggest that they would be just as capable of causing an accident in the Micra - they can both go quickly enough in any speed limit as to cause serious accidents if the driver isn't driving within their limits.
BTW, a base model Micra can do 0-60 in <12 seconds so stop cheating with your figures 😉
as their expensive autonomous car refuses to endanger other road user
Not a problem. Mercedes are targeting that market.
Micra – 1104
BMX X5 – 2510...
Do you honestly think those two machines should be operated on the same licence?
Of course not, for starters you can't signal* in a bwm so why should you have to pass a test which checks you do?
*[well you can flash your headlights at drivers having the temerity to do 70 ish in lane 3 but since you don't drive on a motorway in you test that's irrelevant]
johndoh
Well the vast majority of people seem to make the transition without major concerns so I’d say so yes. At the end of the day if the new driver is so unaware as to be able to get themselves into trouble in a large and more powerful car after they have passed their test then I would suggest that they would be just as capable of causing an accident in the Micra – they can both go quickly enough in any speed limit as to cause serious accidents if the driver isn’t driving within their limits.
BTW, a base model Micra can do 0-60 in <12 seconds so stop cheating with your figures 😉
First result on google
I'm sure the vast majority op people could transition to a x seater minibus or a 3 tonne box van and transition to motorway driving but we have additional tests or you think we should for them.
Do I have to?
Fuel type
Petrol
Engine capacity, cm³
999
Acceleration 0–62mph, sec
11.8
Max. speed, Mph
111
From the Nissan website engine specifications for a basic new Micra
The vehicle you got your figures from was a 1997 Nissan Micra.
Whilst the theory test in it’s current form isn’t perfect, it surely has to be a better test of knowledge than being asked to correctly identify 3 road sign plates having made it back to the test centre as I was.
Not really. Being asked 3 random questions which you have to get 100% may not be easier that asking 40 multiple choice questions where the answer is obvious.
I had to learn/study the whole highway code to be able to cover the 3 questions to ensure I got the answers correct. I wouldn't have studied any more or less for the multiple choice test.
And as with most learning, if you don't use it you will soon forget most of it.
LBC article about this posted on FB is titled something like 'Road Rage fears due to new highway code rules' or something like that - which sounds like borderline encouraging/legitimising road rage to me.
Indeed it's like encouraging people to take more care will make them more angry.
Yeah, locking your front door could cause criminals to get angry and violent.
Having had two offspring pass their driving tests in the last few years, I was shocked at how little attention the Highway Code got.
My eldest passed about 7 weeks ago. She didn't read the HC.
There is a brief focus on the “Theory Test” which is a glorified video game / monkey-multiple-choice test, that you’re coached to win/pass. Once the “Theory Test” hurdle is overcome, it never figures again and one is free to get on with DRIVING
This is accurate - she basically took the mock tests until she understood the way the questions fell, then passed her real test.
She didn't learn to drive, she learned to pass her test, and we've had to suffer the learning bit. For instance, her instructor's car had a hill start function, so she was never taught how to do a real hill start. We live in Swansea, which is built on hills. Lots of steep, awkward hills. Not teaching a pupil how to do a proper hill start around here seems like lunacy until you realise that they aren't being taught to drive...
And maybe it was the same back when I did my test, but I suspect not because there were so few features on cars back then. You had no option other than to actually use a handbrake, etc. Although. I've never really worked out why there was so much emphasis on reversing perfectly around corners. 😀 )
There’s absolutely no reason that someone who passed their test in a Toyota Aygo should be in control of a SUV / 4 x 4 without further testing.
You talking about me?
Passed test in 1974 aged 17 while an apprentice plant & vehicle mechanic, in a Triumph 1500. Following day I was driving Ford D series trucks. Single rear axle, under 3 tons unladen.
I currently drive minibuses for a local authority & can confirm that there are some people who’ve passed their test but still can’t drive. Old & young alike.
I’m just pleased my young passengers can’t hear me muttering under my mask. 🥸
The vehicle you got your figures from was a 1997 Nissan Micra.
A nuance that ignores the point. But also, a 1997 car is probably more representative of the car most people on the road took their test in than a 2022 car?
Was it an STWer who wrote up their experience of being paralyzed after being hit by a big SUV pulling out of a junction whilst he was passing? It had the terrifying line attributed to the police officer that attended "those Range Rovers(?) don't have great visibility over the bonnet" excusing the drivers incompetence whilst he was lying in the middle of the road (words to that effect anyway).
So yes, I do agree that there should have been license categories at 1ton/2ton/3.5t and perhaps a limit of bhp/ton in each category like the motorbike test.
I've got a full bike license, I'm unconvinced there's any reason anyone should not do the DAS option, it's not harder except the bikes a bit heavier which makes mod1 a bit harder and you have to learn to ride with a bit more conviction to get it into corners. If you could pass a test on a 125 you could pass it on a 650. IMO the categories are just there to keep kids with too much bravery and not enough experience alive.
The difference between the Seat Arosa I took my test in and a Merc Sprinter* on the other hand is night and day.
*or even the average SUV these days.
A nuance that ignores the point. But also, a 1997 car is probably more representative of the car most people on the road took their test in than a 2022 car?
Well no because the conversation at that point in the thread was about people passing their test in a Nissan Micra then getting into an SUV/4x4 type high-powered car without further training and I don't think many people in 2022 will take their test in a 1997 Micra. Or are we now moving on to arguing about people that passed their driving tests in 1997 and whether or not they now drive fast cars into walls and trees and people because, after 25 years of driving experience, they still haven't learned how to drive high-powered cars because they haven't had additional training?
her instructor’s car had a hill start function, so she was never taught how to do a real hill start.
Ditto!
The main route to our road involves turning right off a busy main road on a hill. The first time my daughter tried it in my (clockwork) car, we saw the whites of the driver behind's eyes in the rear view mirror as she expected the car to hold when she took her foot off the brake. Nothing at all from her instructor on how to use the handbrake for a hill start.
Do you honestly think those two machines should be operated on the same licence?
Yes, because they're operating under the same rules - the speed limits and rules are the same for both. You've passed your driving test as some sort of proof that you understand what those rules are and that you can operate competently within them. "Machine" choice is up to you.
Getting a faster car doesn't entitle you to higher speed limits - this is where a lot of our "driving gods" get it wrong.
If you want to be unfettered, get a powerboat (as pointed out above). No requirement for training or insurance, just put your money down and tear off into the wild blue yonder.
For the same reason that you don’t pass your PPL in a Cessna then go out and buy a Learjet
Not quite. A Learjet has two engines. You can however fly a Spitfire on a Single Engine Piston PPL immediately after gaining a PPL. You might struggle to take off and land, since one is a taildragger. You can also buy and fly the prop equivalent of a Learjet, A Pilatus PC-12.
Additional instruction might, however, be helpful in both instances.
The issues will only go away once automated cars are mainstream, and manually operated cars become so expensive to insure they are relegated to the realm of the weekend track day hobbyist.
That day can't come too soon, and I say that as a cyclist, and a driver and as a pedestrian.
You can however fly a Spitfire on a Single Engine Piston PPL immediately after gaining a PPL
Do you not have to do a type rating for the Spitfire first? I remember my colleague who was a commercial qualified helicopter pilot having to do one for every model of helicopter he flew, so R22/44 was one, and the Cabri was another, despite them both being piston engines.
We obviously have different licences already, motorbike, car, HGV and some subdivision based on power, weight or gearbox
Wouldn't have any issue with car being further subdivided by some factor. In some ways surprised insurance company's and other interested parties have not pushed this as a revenue stream.
All of this just shows how important Ogmios' work is - we need the Zenway Code now
Do younot have to do a type rating for the Spitfire first?
Not if you own it. Type approval might be for insurance purposes when it's someone else's. Pass your driving test in a micra and then take out that Ferrari...
tillydog
Yes, because they’re operating under the same rules – the speed limits and rules are the same for both. You’ve passed your driving test as some sort of proof that you understand what those rules are and that you can operate competently within them. “Machine” choice is up to you.
So I assume you would be happy for the 3 or 4 stages of motor bike licences to be just 1 then? And the rules aren't the same, a crew van and a couple of other sub classifications have different national speed limits.
I think the motorbike licence grades comparison is really unfair. I would take quite some convincing that a newly qualified car licence holder driving a BMW M3 would pose an equal risk as a newly-qualified A1 bike licence holder riding a high-powered bike if they were allowed – riding a big bike takes considerably more skill and training than driving a powerful car.
I passed in a Peugeot 206, but mostly learnt in a large early 90's Transit dropside. Felt it gave a far better idea of loaded braking distances, judging space, using mirrors, planning ahead and how retarded other motorists can be because they consider you a slow obstruction.
Alternatively, a friend learnt and passed in an Audi RS3.
So I don't quite get the segmentation argument.
However, driving licence is about the only qualification that work don't require me to refresh every 3-5 years (plant and forestry machinery, chainsaws, relevant first aid)