Is there an agreed service level? Does it really not have a force majure clause excluding industrial action etc? As a student she’ll have 2 MPs (one at home and one on campus) so has slightly more chance of being listened to… I’d start by asking them.
Maybe not to the letter of the law, I don't recall exactly what all the stuff said about matriculation and lectures and whatever, if indeed we read it all in detail. But there is a published course / module which lays out for each bit of the course x hours of lectures, y hours of tutorials and seminars in small groups, z hours of practical time with guided learning available under supervision in the lab, etc. Plus the expectation of how many hours of private study they need to do and the assessment / coursework they're expected to turn in. And they're not now getting that time, specifically the practical time which as I've said you can't replace with a video or some photocopied lecture notes.
But again, it's not about the lost time itself even if that is potentially damaging to her learning, it's how to use that as leverage to support the staff and put pressure on the Uni itself to re-enter discussions.
MP's seems a bit OTT (and both areas are Tory so good luck with them exerting pressure on the Uni to renegotiate in good faith with a load of woke lefty lecturers 😉 ) - others have given advice via NUS and course reps.
Just as an aside, I was in Sheffield yesterday, and thought it might be nice to have a wander around my old Uni haunts - West Street, the Students Union, etc etc. Obviously a lot has changed buildings-wise but what really struck me, and MsIHN who was with me, was that it was really quiet, far fewer people (i.e. students)around than I remembered from my day (25 years ago, admittedly).
is that how Uni's are now, actually pretty quiet? Are all the students sitting at home on online lectures?
Focusing only on the question at hand:
- As someone said, she should first contact course admin and ask what's planned
- If that seems insufficient, absolutely she should complain
Doing so will arguably support the strikers, in causing consequences for management from the industrial action.
is that how Uni’s are now, actually pretty quiet? Are all the students sitting at home on online lectures?
It’s the exam period in Sheffield.
It’s the exam period in Sheffield.
Ah. Gotcha.
I mean, even Bar One was empty, and that never happened.
@theotherjonv @matt_outandabout
Apologies if any of this came across as personally directed - it wasn't meant to be, it was more a reflection on the system and its failings from a currently adjacent and personally historic perspective. I do still work in academia, but in an indirect way. @GHill gym analogy is perfectly apt for the student/course interaction.
In the case of @theotherjonv, I'd fully expect the lab to be rescheduled as most lab work is part of both coursework and accreditation processes, so it's diffcult to cut out on an ad-hoc basis at short notice.
As for @matt_outandabout, this looks like systemic failure that occured during a very difficult period for a lot of people - students and lecturers alike. It shouldn't happen, but it did. As for the accreditation - whilst it's a pain, it's only a slightly longer process for accreditation on a non-accredited course, especially if he's actually been enrolled on a course whose content was structured around accreditation.
@Daffy - no need to apologise.
I hear your points and and counterpoint, however schools remained much more open, and returned quickly.
And apologies and continuing of failings are salt to the sore - of 3-5 years time and upto £100k of funding into something which cannot be replaced or repeated.
Where I think we both agree is that they system is broken and perhaps we need to challenge out approach to university.
No need daffy, as I said you make a lot of good points - even if not directly relevant to the actual question they certainly give some background to how messed up the system is which in turn affects both staff and students. And it's a free forum for discussion, not a straight Q&A.
The point of the strike is to put pressure on the Uni, not the students. So complaints or whatever need to focus on that principle. What will cost the Uni income or reputation (same thing in the end these days)? What will hit their funding from Government?
Or, going up a level, because it's Government that have created the situation where Universities are profit focussed, what puts pressure on Government? Write to the MP and object to the position that the Uni is in.
It's regrettable that Government didn't take the view that properly educated people with useful skills are worth having, and design the system around that objective, but that's history. How do we turn it back round?
How things have changed - students crossing lecturer picket lines. Back in the 80s we stood side by side against the same enemy. Well actually we ran rather than get beaten up and arrested.
I would absolutely complain, and if she'd come to my office when I worked for a uni and mentioned it I'd have encouraged it. Though not on the day, since I'd have been striking.
There's no contradiction at all between supporting the strikes and complaining, what you're really doing with that is supporting the strikers- the point is to disrupt, the complaint magnifies that for the management.
Will it make any difference for her? Probably not. It'd be quite fun to demand a day's refund though.
Came on to say exactly what Northwind has said - strikes only work if someone suffers and the cost (monetary, reputational) falls to the employer. As businesses Unis obviously fear the financial hit. Demand refunds on lost services everyone!
It’s regrettable that Government didn’t take the view that properly educated people with useful skills are worth having, and design the system around that objective, but that’s history. How do we turn it back round?
Have we ever achieved that state of tertiary educational nirvana though? I don't think we have.
It's a wicked problem with countless factors at play. A key one is increasing access - the participation rate in HE has gone up from 33.6% in 2001/02 to 45.9% in 2021/22 (entrants by age 20).
Have we ever achieved that state of tertiary educational nirvana though? I don’t think we have.
I don't think we have either, but we've moved a lot further away from it since education became profit focussed.
A key one is increasing access – the participation rate in HE has gone up
But has there been a benefit, to the individuals or society, from that participation? Some people with degrees are doing jobs where those degrees have minimal benefit, all they've gained is 3 years of 'student life' and a lot of debt. Better secondary education for basic competence in maths, English and thinking is more important than HE for its own sake.
As per Northwind, yep, complain and simultaneously support the strikes.
FWIW I'm a striking lecturer and it totally sucks: being in the classroom is the best part of the job, and no lecturer is enjoying disrupting students and their studies. Of course, we don't get paid for the days we're striking (I guess most know that, but just in case!). The dispute isn't intractable and there's a clear landing spot as far as I can see (a moderate increase on pay [6/7%?], commitments on workload, and reexamination of pensions where UCU has been proved right). With Labour coming in this will prove an ideal time to look at student caps too, to stop abuse by the Russell Group (over-crowding/under-serving) and begin to secure income for all universities.
But has there been a benefit, to the individuals or society, from that participation? Some people with degrees are doing jobs where those degrees have minimal benefit, all they’ve gained is 3 years of ‘student life’ and a lot of debt.
The last really solid evidence on this comes from the Institute for Fiscal Studies in 2020, here: https://ifs.org.uk/publications/impact-undergraduate-degrees-lifetime-earnings
They found that:
1. The average financial benefit for individuals over their lifetimes who undertake HE, compared to peers who don't, is £100k extra for women and £130k extra for men (after discounting; £350k and £230k gross).
2. 1 in 5 graduates will experience negative returns from HE (most likely men who study creative arts subjects).
So evidence suggests massification of HE is, on the whole, beneficial for individuals.
I'm never sure that's a fair sort of calculation.
If we take as a general statement that 'the brighter 18 year olds' go to University, is it that surprising that they then go on to get 'better' jobs, faster promotions, etc. Has University made the difference or would they have had more career success anyway because they are the people more likely to have higher paid jobs in future.
There are people who didn't go and have gone on to be hugely successful. And i don't mean to underplay that there are many other skills as well as being able to learn and pass exams that also lead to success.
@theotherjonv The IfS research corrects for that; the increases in lifetime earnings from HE are relative to individuals with comparable characteristics (prior attainment, background, ethnicity etc.) who did not undertake HE.
However, your broader point is right - that's why, somewhat counterintuitively, on average some of the lowest lifetime financial benefits from HE are realised by individuals from wealthy backgrounds with high prior attainment - because they'll most likely do well, whatever they end up doing after school.
If your daughter had a train season ticket and her journeys were frequently cancelled due to strikes, she could claim back part of the cost.
Your daughter has paid £9k for a uni service she is not getting, there should be recourse to recover part of that cost.
Whether or not you agree with the strikes is irrelevant in the context of cost and service delivery.
If your daughter had a train season ticket and her journeys were frequently cancelled due to strikes, she could claim back part of the cost.
Not quite that simple eg just paying the £9k doesn't guarantee a degree, you still have to turn up and work hard (or possibly not anymore)....
equally you can't buy a season ticket, not turn up at the station and then complain to the train company when you get fired because you never turn up at work 😉
Students' dispute is with the uni, not the lecturers. They'll never get anything.
NUS is an irrelevance unless you want a career in the Labour Party.
Not now, there’s a video, a personal session, comprehensive notes, past exams and of course mitigating circumstances.
Interesting to see the contempt for students with mitigating circumstances here. Maybe the one third of additional students since the 90s shouldn't go - and a whole bunch of unis and lecturers would be redundant.
