[Closed] University giving me chronic rage syndrome

Hey,

ignoring all the stuff going off at a tangent, if you feel that there was a serious problem with the exam, and it's something that is actually counting towards your mark, then yes, you obviously should at least seek further clarification of the reasoning behind the particular answers in case you didn't fully understand them, and complain if you still think that there was a problem with the test. If you complain now, it at least gives the lecturer an opportunity to make any future assessments better.

Who you should moan to depends on your university. Probably talk first to your personal tutor as a default contact person, if not them (probably not), then it'll be their job to tell you who is the right person.

What Joe says.
Both my kids have had issues with lecturers/tutors.
Daughters class was being given a lecture about poor performance and quality of their report writing and none of them were worthy of being on a degree course (teaching)and that most of them would fail. The lecturer was unaware that my daughter already had an MA in another subject. She put her hand up to gain the lecturers attention and advised her that she already had a degree and that she, the lecturer, would not have been employed at her previous uni given the way she used PowerPoint as a way of delivering lectures!
At this point the lecturer switched off the laptop and asked for any student who had issues with her delivery to meet in her office. She got her wish!
Daughter gained an "outstanding" report on her first Ofsted inspection last month.
That is only one of many tales of woe suffered by my daughter during her time at uni. 🙄

Personal Tutor and then you should have a specific assessment and appeals procedure.

Any decent institution should have any form of somethingive assessed examination verified by an examining board and possibly an external examiner prior to it having been used. This makes room for appeal very difficult as essentially the examination has been peer reviewed and agreed.

Of course I can't comment on all institutions...

Trekster - Member

The lecturer was unaware that my daughter already had an MA in another subject. She put her hand up to gain the lecturers attention and advised her that she already had a degree and that she, the lecturer, would not have been employed at her previous uni given the way she used PowerPoint as a way of delivering lectures!

Whhhhhaatttt! They used PowerPoint? Lame. Lightweight!

When I was at the Uni the lecturers just stood there and lecture for 55 mins ... that's it. I/we listened and took notes.

No, technological nonsense or handouts. You get the handouts of references in the seminar or tutorial. You find information yourself from the library. End off.

Also all lecturers are supposed to be different and that's the interesting part of being at the Uni or at least part of the fun at Uni. How can you compare lecturers?

Is using PowerPoint the reason for complain? In fact is using PowerPoint the ground for complain? I mean lecturers are NOT entertainers so the delivery of a lecture is entirely of individual concern or style ... or is there a new benchmark on how to speak nowadays? 🙄

I had a Yank lecturer who was a chain smoker ohhh bless him (should have asked him to speak in English ...), a Russian who we thought was a spy, a Yorkshire guy (yes, should have asked him to speak proper English too), a very nice polite English gentleman, a lecturer who only spoke in Economy ... he was from different planet, then some other weirdos but we just get on with learning ... yes, we learned as we do not expect to be taught. Teaching is for secondary school. We were coool dudes at Uni ... we did not complain but get on with it.

🙄

http://adc.bmj.com/content/90/8/837.full

WHY EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE?
The most important reason for practising EBM is to improve quality of care through the identification and promotion of practices that work, and the elimination of those that are ineffective or harmful.4 EBM promotes critical thinking. It demands that the effectiveness of clinical interventions, the accuracy and precision of diagnostic tests, and the power of prognostic markers should be scrutinised and their usefulness proven. It requires clinicians to be open minded and look for and try new methods that are scientifically proven to be effective and to discard methods shown to be ineffective or harmful.

Trekster - Member

The lecturer was unaware that my daughter already had an MA in another subject. She put her hand up to gain the lecturers attention and advised her that she already had a degree and that she, the lecturer, would not have been employed at her previous uni given the way she used PowerPoint as a way of delivering lectures!

p/s: oh ya ... MA in another subject is by no means a good way to do a comparison. Not comparing apple with apple.

It's about being able to adapt to others' styles. So what happens in future employment when the employer does not meet her "standard"? Fire the employer? Or perhaps what the employer/job can do for them as oppose to what they can contribute to the employer/job. Doom!

Me mates are lecturers and part-time lecturers so I tend to hear them talking about it all the time ... yes, they just give them the marks they want and be entertainers, otherwise their job will be unbearable with their bosses breathing down their neck demanding high satisfaction ... from students demanding more spoons to be used.

The advice I gave to me mates was to get out of that profession while they could as there would be no satisfaction facing several hundred demand people. One complain and all their efforts in "teaching" would go down the drain ...

There will be a complaints process, but whether it's actually meaningful is another question- we poll well for quality of teaching but IMO our complaints process is designed to defuse (or diffuse) complaints not resolve them. Coming from a commercial environment to a university one the difference is pretty clear, but I think most of our academics still think it's too strong. Students paying their own fees is a shock to the system! But talking about customers isn't helpful, regardless of payment it's not a typical customer/provider relationship.

Not clear how the data can be more important than the patient care though, the former is worthless unless it's serving the latter. But it's a poor question- adequate for discussion, not for examination.

first world problem. **** off.

Well, I dealt with this by getting.

[img] ?w=461&h=346[/img]

Can barely feel my own fingers let alone type right now. That exam was worth a lot of marks. feeling as if I wasted a lot of money. There was no effort in ""teaching", all this lecturer wants to do.... like many others.... is to get on with their research. They don't care, waste of god damn money.....I could teach myself this shit my renting out books in a library but instead I have to pay assholes like this to make me jump through their half arsed or illogical hoops.

yep bwaarp-- thats so called higher education for you-- high cost yes-- learning by rote, total let down IME

As a healthcare analyst (unqualified, but with Real World experience) Rob can confirm that the answer is [b] ALWAYS [/b] patient care.

forgetting the off topic stuff....

Shouting doesn't work very well in the long run
Did anybody else have the same problems as you?
If they did get your points down and ask for a review with the lecturer
If not go see your personal tutor
As there is an appeals process enter it, it's a university it's not meant to be fast and efficient, you just have to jump the hoops.

Be prepared to MTFU and admit if you were wrong (it's sometimes called learning) it is possible you did not get the context of the questions (this may be due to the way they are written or not)

If it goes against you then get over it. Formalised learning is about ticking the boxes, if you wanted free thinking and all that you should have done an arts course.

Love that the patient care question went over your head!

Would you allow a patient to die to collect more data? Or stop collecting data to save the patient?

There's your answer.

There was no effort in ""teaching", all this lecturer wants to do.... like many others.... is to get on with their research

The irony being of course that Bwaaaaaaaaarp would like some more customer (patient) care, when the lecturer would rather be out gathering more data (evidence).

I've a question for the OP.

If a patient believes that a complimentary therapy taken alongside traditional treatment is doing them some good despite there being no evidence to back that up that claim, would you discourage them from continuing with the evidentially worthless treatment?

Raouligan - Member
Personal Tutor and then you should have a specific assessment and appeals procedure.

Any decent institution should have any form of somethingive assessed examination verified by an examining board and possibly an external examiner prior to it having been used. This makes room for appeal very difficult as essentially the examination has been peer reviewed and agreed.

Of course I can't comment on all institutions...

This. Where i work, when an assessment is set it is checked by an internal moderator and then sent to an external examiner if it is second or third year. If there is an error which isn't picked up at this stage, but is found later and it was detrimental to student performance the students who took it will get a TEC (technical extenuating circumstances) and marks adjusted - in this case the questions deemed incorrect will be ignored in the calculation of the marks.

What you need to do is raise it with the class rep/HoD/programme leader. This will then go forward to the exam board. It might seem slow, but it isn't until the end of the year that anything can be done - that is the way the regulations governing exams are written. Don't escalate it to the VC ffs - they'll just tell you to read the regulations about appeals. And if there are genuine mistakes, the lecturer will be feeling pretty bad about, despite what you claim - don't make it worse for them, mistakes happen.

bwaarp - Member
Can barely feel my own fingers let alone type right now. That exam was worth a lot of marks. feeling as if I wasted a lot of money. There was no effort in ""teaching", all this lecturer wants to do.... like many others.... is to get on with their research. They don't care, waste of god damn money.....I could teach myself this shit my renting out books in a library but instead I have to pay assholes like this to make me jump through their half arsed or illogical hoops.

You're at university, not school. You pay for the [u]opportunity[/u] to learn, not to be taught. Contact with academics is there to guide your learning and introduce you to the material. Then you have to go away and learn it.

If you're worried about value for money of one test, you've got your priorities wrong. In the wider scheme of things the marks you get for assessments aren't as important as what you learnt before them and when preparing for them.

Next you'll be telling me that we shouldn't use techniques for which there is very little evidence after the evidence based techniques have failed.

To go off on a wee tangent. I work in physio

No. That would be me. And I agree with what glupton is talking about - data and evidence is obviously important in ebm but patient centered care is the end goal.

As much as I'm enjoying reading this, you do sound like you have some anger and superiority issues i.e. you are right, everyone else must be wrong/an idiot.

As much as I'm enjoying reading this, you do sound like you have some anger and superiority issues i.e. you are right, everyone else must be wrong/an idiot.

Seems to be a recurring trait on here, sadly.

And they say that university doesn't prepare people for the real world?

Having to deal with an incompetent, lazy, half-wit, inexplicably in a position of authority, and being paid a lot more than you? On a daily basis? While biting your lip to stem the verbal onslaught and explosion of impotent rage?

Sounds like perfect preparation to me 😀

As a healthcare analyst (unqualified, but with Real World experience) Rob can confirm that [b]the answer is ALWAYS patient care.[/b]

That's going to be a pretty easy exam to pass.

I could teach myself this shit my renting out books in a library but instead I have to pay assholes like this to make me jump through their half arsed or illogical hoops.

Welcome to university.

So tell me Bwaarp, are you studying to become a doctor? The clue is most likely in the topic but i know naff all about medicine. You seem to incredibly confident in your own view, to the point where everyone else is utterly wrong. In true STW form this is naturally based on a very narrow survey covering this thread, your views on 29ers and I seem to recall you appearing in a Hope brakes thread as well. Would you say this is a good personality trait for a doctor/medical professional?

the new Dr Who !

I'm guessing it's a big hangover that is being nursed there.....

I have some sympathy for bwaarp's view here - if the purpose of medicine is patient care, then evidence based medicine must be about the evidence

however, since he's not provided any evidence in terms of 5 of the 6 questions he was asked, we're left with nothing to go on

... and he's too grumpy 😥

I just skimmed the above...

But as someone that's set, marked and given feedback on assessments etc at a uni - don't just complain by email/to other people/get angry.

Speak/email the person and ask for a meeting to go over some of the feedback, say you don't understand 6 of the questions and would like to understand the correct answers better.

I always offered this as a first step when people had issues about something - no-one took me up on it, but I'd have been happy to go over answers and correct marking if I was wrong (it happens!).

Seriously, the person wants to teach, not do exam admin. Give them a chance to teach you, rather than deal with the admin of a complaint. They may realise there were mistakes (or you may realise you made a mistake).

Which brings me on to.... there's a chance you could be wrong! And by the very nature of being wrong, you wouldn't know it! Worse still, you'd be convinced you were right! The number of students insisting they had the right answers/deserved all the marks etc. when they were clearly wrong etc. amazed me. Some people just totally didn't get things/grasped the wrong end of the stick.

I'd love to know how this somethingive assessment compared to any formative assessment and the feedback processes involved.

I think the problem here is that you were too clever for the test. That happens to me ALL THE TIME.

What you need to do is dumb down your IQ a few points by watching Hollyoaks for a week, or have a few drinks before class.

Ok, whilst I was nursing a massive hangover I asked myself if I was wrong on this. I tried, I really did but I can't see the other view point - someone gave an example earlier (i think) of a patient taking a drug/something that is making them feel better whilst there being no evidence to support it's use....as a way of making a point.

Let's try a scenario to counter this. Bare with my as I'm still worse for wear from last night.

A 26 year old female patient presents symptoms to physicians that are most likely psychogenic/anxiety related - the patient has decided to take a new natural medicine for whatever it is that is wrong with them. It seems to be working as their symptoms subside, the medics who are involved in the case do not discourage the patient to stop taking the natural remedy as they've decided the placebo effect has relieved her anxiety. Three weeks later the patient develops liver failure and dies, several years later after extensive studies have been performed on the plant extract it's realized that this plant can cause liver failure in patients taking combined oral contraceptives.

Now was this a failure of care, or a failure to find good data before recommending it's use?

It was a failure in EBM/data that lead to an unintentional failure in care, despite the best intentions of the medics they saw nothing wrong with the patient carrying on taking their herbal medicine - even though they knew very little about it's effects both positive and negative. Therefore they were unable to give the patient the best possible advice based on good data.

Care isn't a component of EBM....it's the other way round, EBM is a component of care. You can't make the best possible choice or inform a patient of their best choices without good evidence.

P.S This is almost a chicken and the egg scenario which I feel has no place in a multiple choice exam, it would have been better asked in an essay based exam.

Tell you what, use google scholar, look at what the peer reviewed papers say. If you see a difference of opinion then try to see if they can be reconciled. If not, then look at why there is this difference. Do they represent different world views?
Ow do people arrive at such different views?

Care isn't a component of EBM....it's the other way round, EBM is a component of care.

"What's the most important aspect of evidence based medicine..... data or patient care" Errrr data because you can't give patients good care without good evidence. That's the whole point of EBM. Her answer was patient care

So given that you've decided that EBM is a component of care, rather than the other way round, does that mean you are now in agreement with her?
/Edit scrap that question, just saw your postscript.

you failed the exam, didn't you?

P.S This is almost a chicken and the egg scenario which I feel has no place in a multiple choice exam, it would have been better asked in an essay based exam.

Well, f you don't know which of these came first then there really is no hope.

Worst kind of student. You were wrong, just admit it,it happens sometimes, just move on.

So given that you've decided that EBM is a component of care, rather than the other way round, does that mean you are now in agreement with her?

No because the question was "What's the most important aspect of EBM"...not "Why is EBM important".

Again as I said, I think it was utterly ridiculous that this question was asked in a multiple choice format.

Just to highlight why I thought the question was ridiculous....it turns out EBM doesn't work without any of the following three concepts being involved.

[img] [/img]

So equal importance, which brings me back to my point....why the **** was this an MCQ?

3 questions were effectively trick questions who's choice of answers were open to interpretation - eg "What's the most important aspect of evidence based medicine..... data or patient care" Errrr data because you can't give patients good care without good evidence. That's the whole point of EBM. Her answer was patient care, apparently I'm on a nursing course not a Med Stats course.

Crikey. You don't know the answer? It's elementary! Of course it's patient care if you apply common sense. Everyone in UK knows that. It's so basic.

How can you apply all the bureaucratic answer of assuming the data being more important than patient care?

The question is so so simple you are [b]Not even able to prioritise the answer[/b]. Everyone knows patient care regardless of whether you got the data or not so long as they die happy with good patient care ... in the very unfortunate circumstances.

If you start to fluff around with data before patient care you miss the point completely as you are merely trying to cover yourself by blaming the data. Or you cannot apply common sense without available data for patient care, so when the computer says NOooooo ... you will run like headless chicken not knowing what to do.

Damn! You got that answer wrong? You failed! You don't even understand the basic. You failed! Damn!

A 26 year old female patient presents symptoms to physicians that are most likely psychogenic/anxiety related - the patient has decided to take a new natural medicine for whatever it is that is wrong with them. It seems to be working as their symptoms subside, the medics who are involved in the case do not discourage the patient to stop taking the natural remedy as they've decided the placebo effect has relieved her anxiety. Three weeks later the patient develops liver failure and dies, several years later after extensive studies have been performed on the plant extract it's realized that this plant can cause liver failure in patients taking combined oral contraceptives.

But it was the patient who decided to take the placebo, the drs cant nurse maid everyone, and who would know repeated taping of a keyboard would give you repetive strain injury when typewriters where invented, ie if they didnt know then but discobvered it latter on, thens the time to take action, not before the event.

I think you're missing a key point in providing patient focussed healh care. Informed patient choice. In the example case you've highlighted, there was not enough data for a physician to recommend the natural remedy themselves, but it was the patient who chose to take it. As a medic, the best course of action here would be to emphasise the risks of taking an untested or low evidence based remedy, and if they still decide to go ahead then it is their choice.

You cannot force remedies/treatments on people if they are given enough information to make an informed choice. That's what the biopsychosocial model of healthcare is all about rather than the biomedical where 'doctor' always knows best.

And 'data' alone wouldn't be a correct answer either as the most important aspect. I agree with you that patient care and data are not mutually exclusive in ebm so perhaps it shouldn't be as simple as a single answer, but if I were to choose one over the other in an exam situation 'patient care' is always the priority.

several years later after extensive studies have been performed on the plant extract it's realized that this plant can cause liver failure in patients taking combined oral contraceptives.

Mostly due to this point i would say that there was no failure here and the clinicians did what was reasonably believed to be best for the patient. At the time of treatment the evidence didn't exist to say that the herbal remedy would be counter productive and again at the time it appeared to be benficial so there would be no reason to request the patient to stop using it. That's always going to be the way with medical treatments, what is considered the gold standard today could be considered poor practice in 10-25 years time.

However...

You can't make the best possible choice or inform a patient of their best choices without good evidence.

This I agree with completely. And for what it worth the original question does sound a bit like it's designed to trip you up rather than teach you anything.

And whilst i'm not trying to pick an argument I do find peoples opinions on these things enlightening so I have one more question for you.

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

Yeah for sure, I totally agree with you on that.

I guess what I'm was to get as is that there was no one answer to the question that was more right than the other. Data, clinical expertise and patient values are all equally important.

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

Of course not muppet! But I guess not forcing an old man to take painful treatments at the age of 90 was common sense. But this was kind of my point, good patient care should always be the objective or outcome of techniques such as EBM. But what really drives the ability of a clinician to help inform a patient of their choices is the underlying evidence!

I totally agree with your post muppetwrangler - maybe I just over-analyzed the question to much in the exam.

muppetWrangler - Member

Would you put a 90 year old man through many months worth of painful inconvenient treatment to prolong his life by an additional 6 months? It's an ideal world scenario, money and treatment are infinite and his treatment is not taking resources from another area, it's just about the patient and the clinical outcome.

No, I will get him to a strip club so he will die happy with a big grin on his face. Patient care that!

Or hire dirty nurses to look after him at his own house ... you know those with really really micro minis.

bwaarp - Member

Yeah for sure, I totally agree with you on that.

I guess what I'm was to get as is that there was no one answer to the question that was more right than the other. Data, clinical expertise and patient values are all equally important.

The answers are All important but [b]where is the priority[/b]? I bet you are tested on that. Ask your lecturer and I bet it will be that.

Or hire dirty nurses to look after him at his own house ... you know those with really really micro minis.

Get that man a stethoscope, he's hired.

Ok there are 2 points here
1 bwaarp has presented something he was marked wrong on and claims to be right. There may be debate and part of stw may agree with either response. Taking a stw said I was right note in wont get you more marks.

2 bwaarp missed the point of the questions and still does nit know why.

Ho talk to the lecturer and find out. Either there was a mistake or you missed the point. If you were wrong then I suspect unless you mtfu and admit it the rest of the module may be a right off.

Learning it's got a bit to do with listening. If you decide you know better you will learn nothing. That is your waste of money.

Learning it's got a bit to do with listening. If you decide you know better you will learn nothing. That is your waste of money.

Good point.

Although I will add that there was one question that read exactly as follows "Which of the following drugs is used in the treatment of colorectal cancer"

And the choice was between Cetuximab and Bevacizumab plus a couple of randoms.

Can anyone explain that one to me, was it the lecturers idea of a joke? If it was, it was totally lost on me.