I’ve often wondered what happens to that approach when the government needs people to believe what it’s saying.
You just end up with complete apathy. An acceptance that the regime will just do what it likes anyway, because it doesn't care what the population think. If they do protest, they'll be imprisoned anyway, so why should they worry
I’ve often wondered what happens to that approach when the government needs people to believe what it’s saying.
Being a police state helps there I think. Do this or get thrown into the gulag has a certain ability to make people accept the current line.
Presumably Nato know exactly where Russia’s nuke launch sites are by now? A co-ordinated simultaneous attack to destroy all of these in one strike – Nato could take the Russian nuclear threat off the table and the Russians to heal.
And the ones under the sea?
I know where the ones under the sea are.. they'll be about 500m down under the North Atlantic ice shelf - good luck finding/neutralising them...
Beeb just reporting that Russia has taken Chernobyl off the Ukrainian power grid... So no power to carry out repairs/maintenance to the decommissioned mess.
Nice...
China are sitting on the fence, neither approving nor condemning Russia. AFAIK they do not have a pact between them offering military assistance if either is attacked.
Yes. China are carefully playing a long game and IMO don't want to get into any kind of military conflict. They're watching what's going on with the Russian economic collapse, and waiting for Russia to come to them for a 'bailout'. Which could come in various forms: Russia need someone to buy their gas/oil, they need access to a large banking system to replace SWIFT, and they'll need some big loans soon. They'll be desperate and China will have plenty of leverage to drive a very hard bargain.
If China play their cards right they could end up, at worst, making a shitload of cash, and at best, having Russia as a vassal state for the next few decades, without firing a single shot. It's not surprising they're putting a consoling arm around Russia's shoulder and telling them they're on their side.
The only thing China cares about is preferably control of, or at the very least priority access to, natural resources to fuel their continued economic growth
I think that a lot of Russians know what's coming down the line economically, for younger generations it might be a bit of a shock but just like over here, they are outnumbered. Dissenters will either find themselves in Jail or cowed.
There will be many who don't agree with Putin's decision but have a similar feeling to him with regards Russia's greatness and do not want to see it relegated in the world order. They dodged that one in the 90's remember and consequently voted in a strongman and they probably knew he was an autocrat at heart.
The thought of Russia being crushed will be traumatizing for many Russians and I think that too much talk from our side about defeating or neutering Russia will strengthen their resolve, irrespective of their view on Putin.
From the Beeb...
So cutting the power off from Chernobyl will potentiality stop the cooling of the radioactive site and could get a little nasty.
You just end up with complete apathy. An acceptance that the regime will just do what it likes anyway, because it doesn’t care what the population think. If they do protest, they’ll be imprisoned anyway, so why should they worry
We still talking about Russia right??
This whole mess scares me more than anything I knew about growing up during the late 70s/early 80s. (Not knowing about Able Archer etc. at the time.)
Have we done Russia closing its Forex sales until September yet? Because that’s Putin pretty much tanking the Russian economy.
I mean I know China has stepped in and many Russian banks are reissuing cards backed by the Chinese and those are widely accepted, but to all intents and purposes Ruble convertibility is finished
Reports also coming in from Finland, saying trains from Russia rammed with folks looking to get out before the marshall laws are imposed by Putin that they all think are coming.
I wouldn't stop in Finland if I were them... presence of lots more Russian speakers there could be an excuse for a future invade and flatten mission. Just like Kharkiv.
It’s exactly the same BS they used around 10 years ago from memory and totally made up nonsense.
Isn't that what Blair and Bush did? Make up evidence of WMDs?
I mean you can complain about Putin all you want but B&B managed to sell the same idea to their governments and a large part of the public.
So cutting the power off from Chernobyl will potentiality stop the cooling of the radioactive site and could get a little nasty."
If my old man were still around I'd be asking him a few questions right now as he was a scientist at the National Radiological Protection Board, I imagine he'd be quite busy right now! He'd also done some time in the RAF stationed in Aden when he was younger, fitting radar units to Hawker Hunters.
edit:
Thinking about it? I could have asked all I wanted but he probably wouldn't have told me!
Isn’t that what Blair and Bush did?
And they lost democratic support because of it. Putin...? Doesn't need to worry about that.
Scenes not currently possible in Moscow.
A pop up site in Lille was meant to open today... Except it hasn't and no-one even knew it was meant to be there till they heard it on the news.
Priti... I have no words for her.
Despite having no cooling, isn't the recent upgrade to the Chernobyl Sarcophagus built to be able to cope with such things?
Anyway, what's their reason to do this, divert the power to elsewhere, or is it a link in a chain to cut-off Ukraine's energy supplies?
doris5000
Free Member
China are sitting on the fence, neither approving nor condemning Russia. AFAIK they do not have a pact between them offering military assistance if either is attacked.Yes. China are carefully playing a long game and IMO don’t want to get into any kind of military conflict. They’re watching what’s going on with the Russian economic collapse, and waiting for Russia to come to them for a ‘bailout’. Which could come in various forms: Russia need someone to buy their gas/oil, they need access to a large banking system to replace SWIFT, and they’ll need some big loans soon. They’ll be desperate and China will have plenty of leverage to drive a very hard bargain.
If China play their cards right they could end up, at worst, making a shitload of cash, and at best, having Russia as a vassal state for the next few decades, without firing a single shot. It’s not surprising they’re putting a consoling arm around Russia’s shoulder and telling them they’re on their side.
binners
Full Member
The only thing China cares about is preferably control of, or at the very least priority access to, natural resources to fuel their continued economic growth
Yeah, I doubt China are too disappointed with the situation at all. I seen a news report on sputnik the other day that Cisco have left Russia, so all the web infrastructure there will be getting replaced with nice shiny chinese stuff.
A chinese vassal state does seem like the likely outcome here tbh. Even if they stopped tomorrow, you can't see much business coming from the 'West' as long as Putin and their style of government continues.
https://twitter.com/hackingbutlegal/status/1500465032966062082?t=3Oec5u1aZsgn5wZ0GWLPbA&s=19
Not your usual POW you see paraded. Hope this kinda message is seeping through to Russia.
A pop up site in Lille was meant to open today… Except it hasn’t and no-one even knew it was meant to be there till they heard it on the news.
Not even any crisps and Kit Kats?
Well, who'd have thunk it?
Its almost as if they don't actually want any Ukrainian refugees, but that couldn't be the case, surely?
This Russian POW has the heart of a lion
And how brave are the Ukrainians telling the armed Russian forces, to their faces, the truth about their “libration” mission. Unbelievably brave. The old woman he talks about. That takes guts I don’t have.
Isn’t that what Blair and Bush did? Make up evidence of WMDs?
Not quite. They used cherrypicked evidence. A lot of the evidence was inconclusive, there were things that were consistent with a WMD programme but could also have other uses. There were intelligence sources of dubious reliability. What they did was cherrypicked the evidence that supported their argument and suppressed the evidence against it. It's still extremely bad practice but it's not the same thing as actually manufacturing fake evidence.
At the time it was obvious that they had decided to invade Iraq and were looking to justify it. It was also obvious that they hadn't thought through the consequences and that the "they will greet us as liberators" claim was delusional. Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant and I don't have any sympathy for him. Overthrowing him in itself wasn't a concern for me, the concern at the time was that it was obvious that Iraqi and the region would be destabilized and the Iraqi people were going to pay a terrible price. It was a spectacularly stupid decision made even worse by the utter incompetence of the occupation that followed. Even if the evidence hadn't been cherrypicked, it would still have been a spectacularly stupid decision.
Quick question - with all the western companies pulling out of Russia, McDonald's, coke, apple etc.
What's Russian employment law like - I'm guessing thousands if not millions now left without income?
What’s Russian employment law like – I’m guessing thousands if not millions now left without income?
MacDonalds are going to continue paying their staff. Can't say for the test.
👍 thanks.
Chernobyl now relying on emergency diesel generators for the cooling. Should hold for a couple of days according to an expert in BBC at the mo.
I doubt China are too disappointed with the situation at all.
I think they will be very anxious about it. It has motivated liberal democracies to take security issues seriously. China's neighours are as anxious about Chinese aggressiveness as European countries are about Russia. This is likely to show that alliances with democracies are a better bet than allowing authoritarian countries to dominate you. The last thing China wants is to be surrounded by wealthy democracies that have a defense treaty with the U.S.
Poopscoop
Full Member
Chernobyl now relying on emergency diesel generators for the cooling. Should hold for a couple of days according to an expert in BBC at the mo.
What's going on there, is it Ukrainian sabotage? It makes no sense for Russians to turn off the power there?
^^ I think it's just another way to worry the West.
Putin is scrabbling for any leverage at the moment.
Nor does it make any sense for the Ukrainian's to sabotage it.
Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant and I don’t have any sympathy for him. Overthrowing him in itself wasn’t a concern for me
This is problematic logic though. You, based on the information that you have (been presented), feel that deposing someone is justified. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Russia that believe that Zelensky is a tyrant/NATO are oppressors/Ukraine is full of Nazis. This is based on incorrect data, of course, but you can't argue with the logic employed - by which I mean a Russian of reasonable intelligence might come to the conclusion that invading Ukraine is justified.
Obviously, neither of us nor the average Russian citizen are sanctioning invasions so it's moot, and I'd hope that those who were had access to all the information, not just what the government's mouthpieces spout. But when you begin to justify invasions, it feels like a slippery slope.
What I don't understand though is that there is no rule of war that says neither of the protagonists are allowed to purchase arms from a 3rd party? So what is simply stopping Poland from selling those planes to Ukraine? If they can't buy arms from a NATO country as it might turn into WW3 then who can they buy arms from? Makes no sense why those planes and others aren't already in the country in use.
McDonald's are paying the staff I believe.
Not sure about the others.Russian currency is now worthless so paying them is literally peanuts.
If they kept open supplies would be limited and paying for supplies could be a huge issues for large companies.
I think in the long run it's cheaper to shut up shop than face the problems from the west.
The McDonald's are company owned not franchises like in the uuk so it's a PR win but I bet it's more a financial one.
As for coke they can just fuge off anyway.
Well, there's a massive Russian convoy and attack and buld up of troops coming from that direction, so it makes more sense for the Ukrainians to do something there than the Russians.
@Superficial, I suggest you google 'Halabja Chemical Attack/Massacre' then come back and let us know if you're still questioning if he was a tyrant.
In fact, here's a little tour of his better known works as a kind and compassionate leader.
1974 -- Dawa Killings
1980 -- Fayli Deportations and Killings
1983 -- Barzani Abductions
1988 -- Al-Anfal Campaign
1988 -- Halabja Massacre
1990s -- Marsh Arabs Devastated
1990 -- Invasion of Kuwait
1991 -- Kurdish and Shiite Rebellions
1999 -- Al-Sadr Assassination
What I don’t understand though is that there is no rule of war that says neither of the protagonists are allowed to purchase arms from a 3rd party?
There is also no rule that says you cant decide to attack those who supply weapons to your opponent. It has led to a few conflicts in the past.
Poland seem to want to have the USA involved in the process to try and discourage the Russians from launching strikes, limited or otherwise, against Poland.
The other problem is Poland still needs them currently. They are being phased out but not due for replacement yet so it looks like Poland are hoping to get some fast replacements (either F-16s or get the already scheduled F-35s delivered faster).
@Superficial, I suggest you google ‘Halabja Chemical Attack/Massacre’ then come back and let us know if you’re still questioning if he was a tyrant.
I wasn't questioning anything about Saddam. Or Putin, for that matter. I'm sure they are/were both total rotters. I'm questioning the moral right of our leaders to send troops to remove people they don't like.
We can only act on our own understanding of the world, which might be quite different from others peoples' understanding. Everything we do is framed by our experiences and culture, notwithstanding the (mis)information we receive. Mr average Russian probably isn't evil but may hold a very different opinion about NATO to you or I.
Let’s be honest, if your country bordered Ukraine, you wouldn’t feel very confident right now that other Western countries would come to your aid if RF starts salami slicing off bits of your territory.
Anyone watching PM Q's at the moment?
Yes, feels like Miliband wrote Starmer’s questions… accelerating the shift to renewable energy and storage is key to our response, including restarting onshore wind expansion. And the response to the refugee situation is an embarrassment for everyone in the UK. Glad MPs from all other parties are joining Labour right now, one by one, calling for it to be changed.
The lies are incredible
"We've done more than any other country to resettle refugees"
He actually stood at the despatch box and said that with a straight face
https://twitter.com/Coldwar_Steve/status/1501288148256505856?s=20&t=b3uSYZIn_hG23HN0UnvIMA
And the response to the refugee situation is an embarrassment for everyone in the UK.
Sat in the car ranting at the radio - he has just lied again saying how we've led the world in helping refugees.
He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??
Not a bloody chance that will ever happen.
Started watching it 5mins later had to turn BJ off...
He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??
Not a bloody chance that will ever happen.
Theres only 37,000 or so Ukrainian nationals living in the UK so unless they all have three kids/partners the current visa scheme couldn't bring in 100s of thousands.....
He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??
Maybe he got confused between how much he charged the Russian oligarchs for passports vs visas for Ukranians.
It is utterly pointless. He just lies and lies.
He's now said that 'The UK has led the way in economic sanctions against Russia' while everyone openly laughed at him for making such a ridiculous claim.
Everyone is asking about the pitiful response to refugees and he's just repeating the same lies. The latest 'we are moving heaven and earth...'
Why on earth is he permitted to carry on spouting this utter bullshit in the face of clear evidence its all lies.
Lindsey Hoyle is an absolute waste of space
seosamh77
Full MemberI’m not a Trump fan, very far from it, but you think Putin would be threatening nukes if that mad bastard was still in office?
Well no, he waited til after his useful idiot/asset had done maximum damage to NATO and western alliances and credibility, then invaded after he'd been put in the bin.
It really does feel as if the world order has changed. Interesting article about Japan's significant support for Ukraine and a seismic shift in attitudes to defence spending etc similar to those recently seen in in Germany.
"First Germany, now Japan leaves pacifism behind".
Lindsey Hoyle is an absolute waste of space
Tory frontbench beg to differ.
I’m really struggling to see the problem with Nato being involved
There will be many who don’t agree with Putin’s decision but have a similar feeling to him with regards Russia’s greatness and do not want to see it relegated in the world order.
Russia's government needs to wake up and realise that military might isn't the route to greatness. Russia has massive reserves of natural resources, it simply needs democracy and a willingness to trade with the rest of the world. It would get on very nicely. War creates isolation.
Bunch of people up there ^^ reckoned trade was an enabler for war. Overall I beg to differ looking at the last 60 years in Europe. Sure there will be exceptions but I reckon dependencies brought about by globalisation have led to an overall increase in stability.
He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??
I heard Hundreds and thousands, which sounds the same but means different
@ scuttler
Im with you on that. Closer economic ties aren't a guarantee of peace but there is visible evidence it can help maintain it.
He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??
Weasel Words
Closer economic ties aren’t a guarantee of peace but there is visible evidence it can help maintain it.
Absolutely! The gas supply to Europe from Russia being the case in point. Turning that off would be the financial equivalent of Mutually Assured Destruction. It would have absolutely instant and completely devastating consequences for both parties.
That and not being able to get a Big Mac, obviously. How long will the population of any country put up with not having to remove the gherkin before they eat a burger?
Shits getting real now!
https://twitter.com/MirrorTom/status/1501332443453956098?s=20&t=R_gyMTYaXCbYoAYxtMBAOQ
I'm looking forward to the day that better links between Russia and the rest of the world can be built up again... including making them put up with Sting sat in the lotus position playing a lute at parties, and opening up a bun trying to find where the actual burger is that was shown in the photos. Let's face it though, that's all only going to get going again after Putin is gone... and as he's made it so that he can stay in his post 'till 2036... in reality that means his dethronement now only comes with his death, like a roman emperor.
Some interesting stuff over on Twitter concerning RF losses, including one of their latest stealth corvettes sunk by artillery. They’re also estimating that they RF have lost 30% of their vehicles.
They’re also estimating that they RF have lost 30% of their vehicles.
As much as I'd like it to be the case, Ukrainian propaganda has been excellent in working up their success, I'd take the numbers with a pinch point of salt, even if they have taken out way more than many expected
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/jaguar-kumar-doctor-ukraine-russia-panther-b986986.html
Talking about hearts of lions...how about a couple of other big cats?
Completely hatstand
Oh, I won’t cross post a load of stuff from social media… but follow John Sweeney Roar on whatever platform you use. Doing a very good job of capturing the “every day” activity of normal people. Be warned, you will cry at the positive underground moments when set against the reality of what is happening outside.
They’re also estimating that they RF have lost 30% of their vehicles.
As much as I’d like it to be the case, Ukrainian propaganda has been excellent in working up their success, I’d take the numbers with a pinch point of salt, even if they have taken out way more than many expected
This site documents the confirmed losses by both sides.
Attack On Europe: Documenting Equipment Losses During The 2022 Russian Invasion Of Ukraine
The real numbers will be higher. Ukrainian losses won't be as well documented as Russian because Ukraine is pumping out pictures on social media to win support but Russian troops won't have cell phones with them. From the numbers, it's obvious that Ukraine have suffered some major losses too. Still, Russia took a beating in the early days and cannot sustain that level of losses very long.
Interesting thing is that Russia had a terrible day with aircraft losses two days ago, but nothing since. Maybe the Stingers have scared the Russian pilots to stay out of the fight. Not having helicopters will be a major blow to the troops on the ground.
The other thing to look at is things like engineering vehicles, fuel tankers, etc. Tanks are the prestige items in ground battles, but they are useless without all the support vehicles. Every fuel tanker lost means multiple tanks or other vehicles waiting for fuel.
In early days, Russian forces charged in and suffered huge losses from ambushes. The last couple of days that seems to have tapered off. Quite likely the Russians have changed their tactics. It's also possible that they are tired, hungry, and short on fuel and ammo and taking a break to replenish.
Thanks @thols2, I forgot to save that when I posted it, trying to go back through my posts to find it was a nightmare!
Dear God!
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1501583470589583360?s=20&t=FZaAdgixhlq6S87TX3cgtQ
I wonder if Russian artillery are being told what their targets actually are?
Could depend on if they have FOO's watching the fall of shot, or are simply being given a grid to pound.
I imagine it's the latter with a made-up target description.
I wonder if Russian artillery are being told what their targets actually are?
It's a large metropolitan city full of men, women & children - they know they're not shelling fields of sun flowers.
I wonder if Russian artillery are being told what their targets actually are?
Probably told they need to target baby Nazis. They may not know, but someone above them does
It’s a large metropolitan city full of men, women & children – they know they’re not shelling fields of sun flowers.
No, they probably think they're shelling bunkers, command posts and barracks.
Are there any numbers on how many POW's there are?
Is it? Or is it that the civilians have been evacuated and that anyone staying behind is a Nazi and supports the evil regime and that we're targeting the buildings they've turned into military strongholds to further abuse and mistreat the people of Ukraine who want us to help them?
Not hard to swing a line of bullshit to troops who may have limited to no other means of information.
Edit; late to the party, others made the same point.
It’s a large metropolitan city full of men, women & children – they know they’re not shelling fields of sun flowers.
Maybe the Ukrainians could get some scud missiles to lob into Russia.
Totally evil thing to do, Putin is finished as a world statesman.
No, they probably think they’re shelling bunkers, command posts and barracks.
These are the same tactics that the Russians have employed in places like Chechnya and Syria, and these are the same troops doing it. They know exactly what the doctrine is. Deny the civilian population any sense of safety or shelter; along the way causes psychological terror, mass causalities, panic and ultimately refugees that your opposition has to deal with.
Caher
Full Member
Maybe the Ukrainians could get some scud missiles to lob into Russia.
If they are looking to get nuked. I guess that's a good idea.
Not your usual POW you see paraded. Hope this kinda message is seeping through to Russia.
All POW's in this will say whatever it takes so as not to get gutted by some angry Ukrainians with a rusty bayonet. And i doubt ordinary Russians can get outside news.
Shits getting real now!
Did a job a few years back at Davos World Economic Forum *in the middle of the main street through town for one of the richest people in the world (guy behind amazon's algorithms) jazzing up some shitty bar to make it look half decent. Lots of fake grass, because, you know.... green is good, right?
Anyway, Sting was the main act. We're outside outside cutting down the bar because despite months of planning the big fish decided the bar was way too big. Strings PA comes along telling us that Sting was about to arrive and that we should keep quiet and not look at him... WTF? Anyway, as he stepped out of his Vivano I started up the saw and sprayed the yard with saw dust.
William turned up. He's a prick of the highest order.
*Yes, I'm a whore to money.
All POW’s in this will say whatever it takes so as not to get gutted by some angry Ukrainians with a rusty bayonet. And i doubt ordinary Russians can get outside news.
Completely disagree. The guy in that vid was eloquent, didn't appear under duress (even if he was coerced), he was thoughtful, respectful and was providing what appears to be a realistic appraisal of the situation. I would say it was genuine as he was at it for well over 5mins without any obvious prompting.
Christ, I work with people who can't even explain the thing they've been working on for 2 years. That guy appeared to be talking from the heart, asking for clemency but understanding that it might not arrive.