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But thols you do agree that USA has been messing in countries that it has no business messing in for that last 50 years don’t you?
This thread is about Ukraine. I was utterly opposed to the invasion of Iraq, it was obviously going to be a disaster. I hoped I was wrong and took no pleasure in being proved right. I'm too young to remember the Vietnam disaster, but that was the same. Those are the two biggest U.S. disasters in the last century, but the U.S. has had many disastrous interventions in other countries' business.
In this case, Russia is making pretty much the same mistake the U.S. made over and over again. In the case of Ukraine, Russia is utterly in the wrong. The U.S. being wrong in previous instances has no bearing on Russia being wrong in this one.
Rod Liddle thinks
Little evidence for that.
My mistake then.
The clue here is that the only person behaving offensively was you. You should think about that.
dyna-ti
Free MemberI dont think anyone has said directly that Russia is correct in this.
Russia is specifically not morally correct in its actions. This has little relevance in reality though.
But do you still stand by your statement that NATO, are not expanding right up to their perceived enemy Russia. And that this is by no means an sign of aggression.
I never said that. Stop making things up.
NATO has not invaded Russia. NATO has not invaded Ukraine. Ukraine has not invaded Russia. Russia has invade Ukraine. In this, Russia is the aggressor. Those are the facts.
NATO has not invaded Russia. NATO has not invaded Ukraine.
NOBODY has said they have thols. NOBODY.
What has been said though is Russia feels that NATO building bases on their border is aggressive. And if we accept that NATO is an enemy to Russia, then it clearly is.
It is as aggressive as Russia putting 130,000 troops on the border of Ukraine. There is no difference.
Everyone here has agreed with this, but some on this thread has attacked all and sundry for suggesting that Russia might feel justified in their actions. Seems the only opinion that matters to these people is their own.
Therefore if you suggest such, then they feel you agree with the annexation of Crimea, Syria atrocities, this ,that and anything and everything thats bad in the world.
The tactic being used is evasion of any counter question by attacking the questioner. They wont listen, they wont agree, its always straight on the assault, accusing them of anything and making it out as a given position.
Then they have the audacity of referring this to a debate.
Thols your excitement has reached new heights. Please post a picture of your model battle reenactment. I bet you’ve got hand painted tanks and everything.
Stop trolling.
@dyna-ti
You've persuaded me
https://twitter.com/adamdavidson/status/1495054294705393677
Is that where you get all your information from .. Twitter.
You know the names they have for people who rant and rave on twitter don't you. Cured pork is one that jumps to mind 😉
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/just-when-you-wanted-one/
I'll be honest I don't buy in to the whole 'Russia has a point because NATO is encroaching on their land' thing. These are sovereign countries deciding, by consensus, that they want to join. And they want to join because they want protection from Russia, which a scary basket case of a country. Ukraine is not part of Russia, this is not Russia regaining land taken from it, this is a big country invading a smaller country because it suits them and no-one is prepared to stop them. The fact is that if Ukraine had joined NATO then Russia would not be about to invade and an awful lot of lives will have been saved, and this (last time I checked) is a good thing.
this is a big country invading a smaller country
Ukraine is a pretty damn big country… but one which elected to disarm itself of its nuclear capability. It now needs help if it’s to resist being further occupied, piece by piece.
so that's Xi's shindig over, 5 am kick off ? Wonder if the western powers would go for a "no fly zone" over Ukraine ?
Ukraine is a pretty damn big country
Geographically. But not in terms of population, economy, military might, global influence, etc, etc.
Chechnya is a small country and that didn't go well for Russia...
Big in terms of importance though
The pipelines connecting the Siberian oil and gas fields with Europe are a major economic asset for Ukraine, as their importance to Russia gives Ukraine leverage in negotiations over oil and gas imports.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine/Resources-and-power
I’ll be honest I don’t buy in to the whole ‘Russia has a point because NATO is encroaching on their land’ thing.
I think it's more that there is that perception in Russia, whether justified or not.
You have to bear in mind Russia has a totally different perspective on world history/politics than we do. According to my friend who lived out there for a while and had a Russian wife, over there what we call WWII is called the Great Patriotic War and was basically between Russia and Germany as far as they are concerned. Sort of understandable to a degree when they lost 18 million 26 million people or whatever it was.
There is a deep cultural memory/fear of being invaded through Eastern Europe. That doesn't make what they are doing acceptable, but it probably does help explain it to a degree. That and the fact Putin is a nasty nationalistic scumbag who loves money and power.
I guess it's time to go for war. Germany will probably let Ukraine go as they need the Russian gas supply.
I think half of Ukraine just along the river will be annexed.
Well energy bill is going to sky rocket soon if gas supply is cut off from Russia. No more "green" energy when people have to start using other fuel to generate electricity. Coal anyone?
That and the fact Putin is a nasty nationalistic scumbag.
Yes, but what can others do about it? Talk him to death? Same goes to CCP (China).
Russia “does not have the demographics for war”.
I will wait for few weeks to see if that happens.
With the greatest respect, I'd rather not interact with you.
Germany will probably let Ukraine go
Is meaningless comment as Germany has no influence; Nord Stream2 isn't operational yet and may stay that way.
NATO doesn't have the intention of putting 'boots on the ground' in any meaningful way; noises off, supply of military hardware/tech services and threats of sanctions are the limit of what countries other than Ukraine will do.
I doubt Putin is bothered about any of this nor will he be concerned about loss of Russian lives as they will be presented as deaths in defence of the mother country.
While the west has been talking about sanctions it's likely that Putin and his favoured oligarchs have been moving their assets out of reach.
Just to add - unconfirmed report in US media that Russian generals have received their invasion instructions.
Blinken: "Russia on brink of invading Ukraine"
Blinken makes the point that sanctions should only be triggered in event of an invasion, not to preempt an invasion.
Interesting take on Putin and the crisis as a whole.
I really don't think a further invasion will happen, the West will face and give in to se limited demands.
I very much doubt it - NATO has already agreed to keep Georgia and Ukraine out of the club in accordance with Russian demands, this is about much more than Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia wants to use this opportunity to redraw eastern Europe.
If NATO and it's allies fail to deter Russia, then we risk other countries being empowered to take someone else's territory knowing that precedent has been set.
That's interesting about Russian demographics and the higher Covid death rate
With the greatest respect, I’d rather not interact with you.
I am Not trying to interact with you as you did not write the article nor made any comments about the article.
My comment was for the article Not you.
NATO doesn’t have the intention of putting ‘boots on the ground’ in any meaningful way; noises off, supply of military hardware/tech services and threats of sanctions are the limit of what countries other than Ukraine will do.
I think most people can guess that. That is why I said Ukraine will be "let go". With silly Biden around it will only be hot air.
The only way for Ukraine to get out of this without war is to relinquish half of Ukraine to Russia just after the river. That will give Russia the buffer zone they need.
I am Not trying to interact with you as you did not write the article nor made any comments about the article.
As before, thirteen years of my forum experience has demonstrated that any interaction with you is completely futile and a waste of time. I respectfully ask that you do not interact with me in this thread.
Bye.
Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them
That’s interesting about Russian demographics and the higher Covid death rate
Indeed. Perhaps one of Putin's goals is to create the conditions for a refugee crisis in Central/Western Europe.
Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are destined to repeat them
They are repeating them on both sides. Russia wants their buffer zone and see NATO creeping up to their doorstep.
Russia is not exactly expanding their territory but when more of their alliance start to switch side they are not going to sit there to let it happened. They see "their territory" (influence) shrinking.
In current situation Ukraine is not going to remain intact territory wise. Russia is too close.
CCP on the other hand is expanding their territory by their strong arm to claim all the islands in South China Sea.
Ukraine is still years away from fulfilling the requirements to join NATO.
Putin wants Ukraine to remove from their constitution the stated objective of joining NATO.
I think Putin is looking to his legacy and place in Russia's history; the man who restored Russia's place in the world and restored national pride.
It's complete bollocks but he has master-minded mis/dis information and cyber warfare on a global scale and convinced much of the Russia populace of a massively distorted reality.
Ukraine is still years away from fulfilling the requirements to join NATO.
Yes, a long way to go and a rather complicated ones as well. Russia will make sure that does not happen nor even let them think about the idea.
I think Putin is looking to his legacy and place in Russia’s history; the man who restored Russia’s place in the world and restored national pride
He has to otherwise they are just going to look weak.
...but he has master-minded mis/dis information and cyber warfare on a global scale and convinced much of the Russia populace of a massively distorted reality.
That's not a new phenomenon for Russian and former Soviet citizens, who by and large knew that their daily reality was distorted and that Soviet society was failing. Moreover, around one million Soviet conscripts were deployed in Afghanistan between 1979-1989 and this in turn sparked anti-war protests in Ukraine during the 1980s and arguably fueled the successionist movements in the Baltic states. The potential invasion and occupation of Ukraine could be fraught with unforeseen consequences for Putin.
It's also worth remembering that Russia hasn't had a functioning democracy as we'd know it, but various forms of autocracy have been the norm since the days of the Tsars.
My daughter asked me last night "What do Russia want?" and I didn't actually have a sensible answer. AIUI Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Ukraine would like to join NATO. NATO don't particularly want members who are likely to be invaded so don't want Ukraine. So other than an ego trip for Putin what's in it for Russia?
So other than an ego trip for Putin what’s in it for Russia?
Domestic support, and empire building in the soft sense, I think.
Looks like there's a potential summit on the cards now between Biden and Putin.
Fingers crossed.
what’s in it for Russia
What Putin and co. think is in it for Russia and what actually is in it for Russia, is, I reckon, going to be two very different things.
Maybe for him: Short term: glory. Long term: increasing paranoia over imagined and real "plots". For the poor Russians, harder times, increased isolation.
But the country is a series of confounding babushka dolls, so who knows?
Looks like there’s a potential summit on the cards now between Biden and Putin.
the Russians have poured cold water on that apparently.
“What do Russia want?”
Not admit Ukraine into NATO, to pull back from all "frontline" countries (the ex-Warsaw Pact countries) he wants the autonomous regions that he invaded in 2014 to be recognised (and possibly start the process to becoming a different country or subsumed into Russia) he wants all NATO medium range missiles to be withdrawn from Europe, and if he gets all that, and re-organisation of the security structure to give Russia a greater say.
I think Putin is a revisionist who bemoans the end of the Soviet Republic, and sees the loss of Ukraine as a defeat for him and thinks that by re-establishing it's "sphere of influence" it will have a greater say in world events. I think he also regards the encroaching "mostly" democratic former satellite states as not a good development
The summit will buy more time for Ukraine.
Unless Biden has an ace up his sleeve. the US putting out real time info must have Putin spooked as he is ex kgb. Is there a rat or plot to relapse him must be running through his mind. the USA could just be making it up but somewhere there is glass to the wall and info is leaking.
I just hope the longer the Russian generals sit waiting for Putin the more time they have to think and within themselves work out that it's not going to be a weekends work and may not be worth the huge loss of life.
Any idea how much it cost to have 90% of your army on standby like that they are not in barracks so it's must be a huge drain.
P'raps he's banking on the USA to vote in another "asset", next presidential election.
Two years of "difficulties" then the US does a "Kurds" on Europe and Vlad gets to steam roller westwards.
It's all 'orrible.
Unless Biden has an ace up his sleeve. the US putting out real time info must have Putin spooked as he is ex kgb. Is there a rat or plot to relapse him must be running through his mind. the USA could just be making it up but somewhere there is glass to the wall and info is leaking.
Mobile phone and social media data will be helping, getting everyone to switch their phones off and not message home is impossible.
Russia already has well developed targeting capabilities using mobile masts. I suppose that NATO will have similar capabilities
How capable is Biden?
Like him or not Putin is pretty good at achieving things, see Crimea for example.
Is Biden actually going to be any use in facing up to him though, is he going to be able to take on the JFK role here? He seems to have a lot of support (particularly outside the US) for 'not being Trump' but does that make him the right man for the job?
We can hardly rely on Boris to lead the free world in the way we would have expected of Churchill or even Thatcher.
I think from the beginning, Putin has wanted to destabilise Ukraine, same as back in 2014, but this time around they're a bit more steadfast and less internal fighting, so the Russians have been waiting for their justification to wander over the border.
I just cannot see the Russians invading without a justifiable excuse, it would support the Ukrainian nationalists and a pitch battle live on TV is just not what Russia would want, or could realistically support, for all the propaganda about Russians might, they are still modernising, and would have seriously limited offensive abilities due to the nature of any invasion.
I just cannot see the Russians invading without a justifiable excuse
An invitation might do it. Whether that's from placed individuals in Ukraine. Or just into the breakaway regions. The full military occupation of which might be the goal anyway.