That does seem to be the objective
NATO will not come to the Finns’ rescue but to let them fight the war first like Ukraine.
Just to clarify, are you saying if Finland joins NATO, NATO will not step in if Finland is attacked?
What NATO is doing now is to use other nations to weaken Russia before they step in
Clarify this one too please. Are you hinting that at some point in the future NATO intend to take on or invade Russia?
Re. Cuba. No I don't approve of continued sanctions against Cuba but at least the US are not bombing Havana.
The definition of empire does not fit Russia/Putin but much suited to US/NATO/UK.
An empire has a single ruler (Putin, Xi Jinping) whereas as NATO is a collection of self determining states.
Have enjoyed your contribution and alternative view but it's getting wearying now.
I found a really helpful chart that clarifies the current debate on who is responsible for this tragedy.
[url= https://i.ibb.co/MNK4tQB/chart.pn g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/MNK4tQB/chart.pn g"/> [/img][/url]
Not serious post.
Merely using Cuba as example of nuclear power bullying a smaller nation due to perceive existential threats as it is in Russia/Ukraine war.
Well it's a fair point - that the USA is not 'the good guys (tm)' but we all know this on this thread. But I do think that a nuanced point of view is important.
It’s killing this thread sadly
It's cos you all keep arguing with him even though he's not actually wrong and nor are you lot. Might as well just let it go, otherwise you appear bullying.
That does seem to be the objective
Yep, it's starting to get very aggravating, especially when the individual concerned has been proved demonstratively wrong on more than one occasion, yet instead of saying "whoops, mea culpa" they simply repeat and repeat and repeat... I want to read what someone else has to say please.
The definition of empire does not fit Russia/Putin but much suited to US/NATO/UK.
Wow. True colours well and truly nailed to the mast. People have cut you a lot of slack on here, for your alternative viewpoint. A different way of looking at the situation is one thing, but you're starting to sound like a Putin fanboy/apologist.
I don't think Finland will not join NATO as it is too high a risk at the moment.
A different way of looking at the situation is one thing, but you’re starting to sound like a Putin fanboy/apologist.
That I am certainly not but interpret as you wish.
Please, just give it a rest now.
Back on topic. A lot is being made of this arrest of Putin's bezzy mate on treason charges. Apparently he was being lined up as Putin's puppet leader in Ukraine had Zelenskyy been deposed.
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1513948738888286211?s=20&t=OSk0oTx9qTZ-pIKEfQIDpQ
A lot is being made of this arrest of Putin’s bezzy mate on treason charges.
Oof. He doesn't look too chuffed about it. Ah well.
Bury him upside down in Kramatorsk and park a bike.
Just to clarify, are you saying if Finland joins NATO, NATO will not step in if Finland is attacked?
If they join, if.
Clarify this one too please. Are you hinting that at some point in the future NATO intend to take on or invade Russia?
No, they will go to war with each other if escalation becomes uncontrollable from one incursion to another, but who will nuke first is difficult to say as they know it's just mutual destruction.
An empire has a single ruler (
Putin,Xi Jinping) whereas as NATO is a collection of self determining states.
Xi is definitely empire building and not even shy about it. CCP's aim to take over from USA in the eastern hemisphere and to kick USA out of that region.
@chewkw - I think you need to refer yourself to the mods for vexatious whataboutery
@chewkw – I think you need to refer yourself to the mods for vexatious whataboutery
Just replying to Slowoldman. He will disagree but back on topic now to Ukraine.
I am not going to bring up Cuba again coz that's enough. No more Cuba or Monroe doctrine.
No, they will go to war with each other if escalation becomes uncontrollable from one incursion to another
Lets be clear though.
Only one party might carry out an incursion on the other although even that would be unlikely.
Hence why Finland is weighing up its options since whilst the odds of it being invaded are rather low, especially after the poor performance in Ukraine, they arent zero whereas if they join Nato it would reduce the odds even more.
Xi is definitely empire building
China is historically already an empire, same as Russia, I reckon.
China is historically already an empire
Somewhat debatable. The history of China is a tad more complex than the one put forward by the CCP and associates. The fragmentations and various conquests are conveniently hidden under the title "China".
Like Tibet?
There was as much fighting between kingdoms and rulers in China over the centuries as there was in Europe. China now is as Europe would be if it were now ruled by one person.
If you look at how many different languages are spoken within the Chinese empire, and how hard the party has worked to try and stamp them out and impose an official language, you get a picture of how many different nations have been conquered and subdued. As above, it would be as if the Roman Empire had persisted and every country in Europe was forced at gunpoint to speak Italian.
Edit, actually there was someone on the receiving end of that so edited out.
War and taking over/re-taking countries has always existed. Poland as we know it is about 1/5 of its original size and ceased to exist completely in 1795
Most leaders don't resort to genocide to reverse an historical whim and to show the people how strong they are, which is the difference here
I was wondering about this and Trump the other day.
Trump was weakening Nato - I'm not sure whether that was deliberate at the request of his mate Putin, or whether he was trying to push them (the other Nato members) into buying US arms to make up for their shortfall in defense spending.
I was wondering what would have happened re: Ukraine and peoples response to it if Trump had got in for a second term?
The irony is that Russia's 2022 invasion of Ukraine has demonstrated to the world what the value of Nato is, and prompted several non members to look again at becoming members. Putin has hugely strengthened Nato in his actions, and got Germany to increase their defense funding in a way that Trump hadn't managed (if that was ever his objective anyway).
I do think NATO need to urgently look at their process for admitting new members that border Russia. There can't be some drawn-out application/approval process that would give Putin a chance to "interject". Talks would need to be extremely brief, extremely secret, and an announcement of full membership made abruptly and immediately.
The argument that joining Nato is a "provocation" or and "escalation" is just utter horseshit. It's more of this "good people on both sides" **** ery - you can't cite people's desire to defend themselves from a serial invader of neighboring countries, as an escalation/provocation for that invasion. Get in the sea.
rollindoughnut
Free Member
I think it’s in pretty poor taste that some of you are having fun playing your little war games whilst real people are experiencing such horror. You’re enjoyment of the situation is frankly sick.
Wow..... sanctimonious much?!? Point me to a single person on this tread who doesn't think that this war is horrific and would want it to end tomorrow. Nobody is "enjoying" this situation.... what's happening here is a (relatively civilized) discussion about a hugely significant world event. If you can't handle that, then I advise that you don't stray further onto the internet.
Point me to a single person on this tread who doesn’t think that this war is horrific and would want it to end tomorrow.
Yup. It's fair to say that noone in this thread wants the loss of life and the suffering to continue, even those with whom I have historically disagreed with.
Somewhat debatable. The history of China is a tad more complex than the one put forward by the CCP and associates. The fragmentations and various conquests are conveniently hidden under the title “China”.
China is complex but with CCP their intention is to control the eastern hemisphere to drive the west out by establishing themselves as the main "influence" in that region. There will not be much of a tanks rolling over the land but merely ocean war, if there is one. There are many strategic islands that CCP are eyeing up and will get them once their increase their fleet of aircraft carriers. At the moment they are about 80 years behind USA/NATO. Unlike Russia fighting CCP is not going to be that simple to deal with due to regional support. The support will further increase with the current situation in Ukraine/Russia. Many have supported Russia unwillingly because of the way they perceive the "intervention of NATO". Although Taiwan is the main target of CCP, many have perceived the fall as inevitable once CCP becomes uncontainable and may not even take the form of war like HK. CCP will not fight with their neighbours but will certainly exert strong influence over them.
CCP will not fight with their neighbours but will certainly exert strong influence over them.
This is utter nonsense. China has border disputes with pretty much all its neighbours. It arbitrarily declared that a huge area of ocean belongs to China and is constantly sending paramilitary forces in to provoke conflict.
However, this thread is about Ukraine and how Russia invaded it and is now murdering tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainians. Fantasies about China being a misunderstood peaceful nation that other Asian countries are happily welcoming is irrelevant.
Hard to know exactly what is happening in Mariupol. One thing is for sure - I don’t believe a word the Russians say until it is independently verified.
Just replying to Slowoldman.
You may have replied but you didn't answer the question - "are you saying if Finland joins NATO, NATO will not step in if Finland is attacked"?
Be careful believing that. Sverige Demokraterna are not in government and have no power to be involved in the process. They can ask for it, campaign for it, go all over the press for it, but the election is in August/September and their coalition needs to win before they have some influence.
The Social Democrats (and the left-leaning coalition) are making noises about NATO membership, but it is not decided yet. We value independence, (and partner status with NATO), but the war in Ukraine has really would up the far-right, neo-liberal and near-right parties (aka: SvD, Moderaterna and Liberalerna).
Worth noting that both Sweden and Finland are EU members so theoretically the EUs mutual defence clause triggers. Both in the European Defence Agency too. Which does seem to be all a bit ambiguous in practise.
They’re also both members of NORDEFCO Nordic Defence Cooperation and the U.K. led JEF.
I was wondering what would have happened re: Ukraine and peoples response to it if Trump had got in for a second term?
A moot point, because the invasions would never - read my lips - NEVEEERRR have happened. [/Trump]
You may have replied but you didn’t answer the question – “are you saying if Finland joins NATO, NATO will not step in if Finland is attacked”?
No, if Finland joins NATO members have to step in.
If Finland has not officially joined then NATO members will not step in.
Fantasies about China being a misunderstood peaceful nation that other Asian countries are happily welcoming is irrelevant.
CCP is not peaceful but so far they have not invaded neighbouring country yet but I am not sure about the future. For the moment, if I recall, they just skirmishes at the boarders.
CCP is not peaceful but so far they have not invaded neighbouring country yet but I am not sure about the future.
Tibet?
If Finland has not officially joined then NATO members will not step in.
Finland are already part of several strategic defensive alliances plus they have a well trained professional army with the latest western weapons.
Further reports of Sweden/Finland deciding to apply but doesnt actually read like a decision made. The article claims the Swedish PM is on board with applying.
www.thelocal.se/20220413/swedens-social-democrats-could-decide-on-nato-on-may-24th-report/
Even the "actual" Nazis didnt get Sweden to drop neutrality.
If Finland has not officially joined then NATO members will not step in.
If it really is that simple (it isn't) then the choice has been made for them by Putin really, hasn't it?
The nuance is that European countries who are in NATO absolutely would be involved in some form if Finland were invaded. If you're suggesting that the USA wouldn't get involved directly militarily, then that is probably true.
Finland probably doesn't need to join NATO, but the arguments against doing so have crumbled this year. That's entirely Putin's doing. If they do end up joining, he is the one making that happen.
CCP is not peaceful but so far they have not invaded neighbouring country yet but I am not sure about the future.
Tibet?
You see, the trick here is that as soon as the country is invaded, the invader declares it a non-country. Yes, China invaded Tibet, but they just declared that it was part of China so it doesn't count as invading another country. It's the same with Ukraine - Russia just announced that it wasn't a real country but part of Russia so it doesn't count as an invasion. What this means is that China and Russia never invade other countries.
The U.S. is kinda dumb. They don't try to actually make the countries they invade part of the U.S. anymore, they just try to turn them into liberal democracies. This nearly always fails and it means that the U.S. is constantly admitting invading other countries. If they just refused to admit it like Russia and China then it wouldn't count as an invasion.
Or something like that. I don't understand how Russian/Chinese apologist logic works.
It works in that, even when wrong, you cannot back down as culturally that is not the norm.
Putin's face saving last gasp Donbass battle is only matched by the face saving exhibited on this thread
