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Not sure how ‘we’ (or maybe you?) stop this from happening?
Well we could start by voting in governments who act in the interests of normal people rather than the interests of billionaire oligarchs. Our current government is an excellent example, but this goes back decades. Have we forgotten how Mandelson used to hang out with Putin's mates? The only protection we've ever had against megalomaniac narcissists is the pressure we can put on politicians to stand up to them. Over the past 30 years we - and obviously I'm talking collectively - have completely failed to do that.
Yep, it will only take one small thing to trigger a domino effect that will rapidly be unstoppable, leading to WW3
Christ do you think we could tone down the hyperbole and hysteria? I'm always more than up for a bit of nihilistic fantasising but this is ridiculous.
I feel quite ashamed to admit that something happening in another country makes me feel seriously anxious.
Nothing to be ashamed of.
In the West you have Russia but in SE Asia we have CCP using their influence and flexing their muscles all the time. Ordinary mortal can only cope as the corrupt politicians keep welcoming their "new found" wealth.
I also wonder how misled the Russian troops must be, it’s hard to imagine them all thinking this is being done for Russia’s protection and is a just war.
Think back to WW2 - a great deal of the Wehrmacht didn't believe in Nazism or what Hitler was doing, but they were soldiers and soldiers follow orders. And of course the propaganda plays a big part too – I read that almost 50% of the Russian public agree with what is happening and believe it is due to Nato aggression against Russia.
Just went on RT on TV to look into the abyss.
RT reporting that much of the fighting is against "Neo Nazi" elements. Yeah, sure, sure.
If you want to keep your sanity don't even think of going on RT Twitter feed though.
Is there any talk of sanctions against Belarus?
I seem to recall logging in to Nordea Bank a few weeks ago and there being a message to say no transactions could be made to Belarus
The fact that people in Russia are on stop the war protests is amazing and humbling.
Agreed. Brave. I wish I could say I'd be with them if I lived there. I honestly don't think I'd share their bravery.
Any links of examples of protests @Clover ?
Is there any talk of sanctions against Belarus?
EU are reported as planning further sanctions. However they are already under sanction due to the attacks on protesters last year and given its basically a Russian puppet state I doubt would make much difference.
Any links of examples of protests @Clover ?
I'm seeing them on Instagram from Ekaterinberg where my wifes family are, there are many Russians against this.
To be clear- johnson announced sanctions on Belarus.
From Twitter: @Nat_Vasilyeva (Moscow correspondent for Telegraph) @Andrew_Roth (same for Guardian) @aAlexKokcharov (London based risk analyst for Ukraine) @Samfr (Institute for govt).
Seems to be hard to copy stuff out if Twitter so 🤞🤞 for spellings.
RT is a view from another dimension. I'm hovering on unfollowing them but its interesting to see the other side.
I wonder if Germany is reviewing its constitutional position to agree to an agressive stance rather than its traditional form of peacekeeper. Its a potential chance to stand on the right side of conflict although it does have previous form, times have changed. The Bundeswehr is pretty well equipped and organised.
Yeah, me. I have to say I feel exhausted and stressed today and I can’t work out why as I didn’t think this would bother me in a direct way like this.
I woke up at 4 this morning worrying about the usual causes of my anxiety, and Putin said "hold my beer". Given how edgy I am at the moment, it's been a heck of a day.
I woke up at 4 this morning worrying about the usual causes of my anxiety, and Putin said “hold my beer”. Given how edgy I am at the moment, it’s been a heck of a day.
I was similar. Something woke me at 5am ish and as soon as I'd read the news that was it I wasn't going back to sleep.
Is there any reason why all the proposed legislation cannot be fast-tracked for almost immediate implementation?
Johnson stated that some sanctions will be implemented immediately but others will be...before Easter with some in next parliamentary session.
Chernobyl? I mean why on Earth would you want to capture Chernobyl!?
Is there any reason why all the proposed legislation cannot be fast-tracked for almost immediate implementation?
Gotta give his mates a bit of time to sort out their financial affairs.
BTW am I the only one wondering when Chelsea are going to get kicked out of the premier league?
Chernobyl? I mean why on Earth would you want to capture Chernobyl!?
I assume the Ukrainian forces are trying to protect Kyiv from Russian forces attacking from the north via Belarus.
Going through Chernobyl is likely a direct route on the way to Kyiv.
Any suggestions ^^^ about a dirty bomb are, almost certainly, very wide of the mark.
Dazh - good to see you haven't lost your 'sense of humour'.
Christ do you think we could tone down the hyperbole and hysteria? I’m always more than up for a bit of nihilistic fantasising but this is ridiculous.
It won't get to that in a day or two, that's far too short a timeframe, but over the course of the next few weeks and months it could all build up to the point where one action sets a load of other actions in motion that will be very hard to stop or alter. Things like this always come to a head at some point and if you look at the way the cards are laid right now it's very easy to see how someone making a decision without consulting others (Johnson on financial sanctions on Russian oligarchs in London without European and US backing for example) could cause irreparable damage. We know Putin isn't normal so never underestimate how he could react to even seemingly trivial things.
Going through Chernobyl is likely a direct route on the way to Kyiv.
That's the most plausible reason I've heard, couldn't figure it out myself.
Still a bloody stupid place to start flinging ordnance about.
I woke up at 4 this morning worrying about the usual causes of my anxiety, and Putin said “hold my beer”. Given how edgy I am at the moment, it’s been a heck of a day.
Same here!!
Re Chernobyl fighting -i suspect that's the reason a Constant Phoenix has made an appearance in the area last few days....see the latest in the military aircraft thread.
Btw radioactive particles being lifted into the atmosphere from the ground in Chernobyl area has happened quite a few times in recent years due to forest fires.
Ref Chernobyl yes I guess that makes sense. Could give a fast route for Russian forces to Kyiv.
Also interesting that Russian paratroops have taken over an airport not far from Kyiv presumably to fly in reinforcements. History says though that airborne operations often end in failure unless they can be reinforced quickly. The Ukrainians should be throwing everything at a counter attack to dislodge them…
I dream of a day like this but instead of this no-one shows up.
Literally everyone turns their back on the **** with the button. Even their inner circle and closest family. Everyone just says ‘how about you FOAD?’, and then sends the insane power-crazed narcissistic Machiavellian lunatic to the freezing wilderness to eat berries and their own poop until their last wibble is unheard by a single soul.
Dream on.
I fear this is Russia's desert storm in which their overwhelming army will roll over the Ukrainians. But will leave deadly legacy for ordinary Russians.
I think it will be another Afghanistan, with the numbers of troops the ukranians can call on this could have Russia bogged down for decades and lose a huge number of troops.
You know the Ukrainian army will be getting a fair bit of weaponry at the moment
The fact that people in Russia are on stop the war protests is amazing and humbling.
This.
RT reporting that much of the fighting is against “Neo Nazi” elements. Yeah, sure, sure.
Not many on here, or the BBC for that matter have really picked up on Putin's regular use of the word 'Nazi's'
When Barbarossa began and the Germans showed up kn Ukraine quite a lot of Ukrainians sided with them, not because they particularly liked the Nazis but because it was a good chance to get rid of the Soviets.
This obviously didn't go down well in Russia, I suspect a few Russians still hold a view of them as traitors and Nazi sympathisers and that Putin is trying to reinforce this perception to a domestic audience?
Jailed Kremlin critic Alexei Navalny said Thursday he opposes President Vladimir Putin’s declaration of war against Ukraine, calling it a “distraction” from Russia’s economic stagnation and sociopolitical problems.
“I am against this war,” Navalny told the judge, according to the independent Mediazona news website’s live blog of the hearing.
“I think this war is designed to divert attention from Russia’s problems, and it will only lead to greater impoverishment,” he added before being interrupted by the judge. “I consider those who unleashed this war to be bandits and thieves. I went into politics to fight this criminal regime of thieves.”
Anyone else do f-all work today because of the news? Ending up working late as I can't set my phone down.
It's all right, folks - Pork Markets is on the case.
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1496854906296221697?s=20&t=KHs3sd3vueFKdZ6BNI3oVQ
The audacity of a Tory cabinet minister accusing a diplomat of any other country of losing credibility with the international community... 🙂
Anyone else do f-all work today because of the news? Ending up working late as I can’t set my phone down.
Yep, me.
I fear this is Russia’s desert storm in which their overwhelming army will roll over the Ukrainians. But will leave deadly legacy for ordinary Russians
That's how I see it tbh
Remember back when
Tbh as stupid as truss is, i have no issue with her kicking the Russian ambassador out of her office considering the current context.
Yes i see the irony but afaik we haven't invaded anyone recently
And farage should f off to Russia to be with his financial backers, ideally he should be heading into Ukraine to prove his points. Maybe he could catch a live grenade or artillery shell...... we can hope
“It was a heated meeting. Liz Truss kicked him out early. Said he should be ashamed of himself, that Russia has lied repeatedly and lost its last shred of credibility with the international community”
Unfortunately Liz got confused between the two key meetings in her office, so the Foreign Office has fired the cleaner and subsequently ordered a tonne of Hammer & Sickle Five Year Plan 1200 grade bog paper.
BBC reporting further anti war protests near Kremlin. Incredible bravery - I genuinely have no idea if I would have the balls these people have to stand up for what I believe in but good luck to them!!
Maybe it’s just me but every time I see a pic of a Ukrainian soldier on the news, they look like some kind of half man half terminator brick shithouse. Here’s hoping they are indeed as tough as they look!
And farage should
f off to Russia to be with his financial backers,be set upon by chavs and hounds
There must be millions with family ties over the border, both ways, maybe the Russians soldiers hearts just won't be in it? Maybe it'll backfire on him internally. That's the only thing that might stop it. He won't give a **** about sanctions if the oil and gas are still finding a market somewhere.
What a dire situation. The harshest sanctions must be enacted and support given to mitigate the growing humanitarian crisis. But for me it's absurd that The US/UK/FR condemn this invasion with a straight face. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history of the mid-to-late 20th and early 21st century will be hard pressed not to hear the condemnations from these countries as sounding hollow after the wars and invasions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Libya.
The invasion of Iraq was particularly egregious, since the US shattered the post-war consensus by invading a sovereign state not on the grounds of retaliation, but as a pre-emptive strike. Likewise, Putin’s 'justification' of rooting out Nazis sounds rather familiar if you swap out 'Nazism' for 'Islamic fundamentalists'. This, of course, does not excuse or justify the invasion of the Ukraine, but it is really a case of American/European imperialism as 'good' and Russian imperialism as 'bad'. Where we go from here is anyone's guess.
Anti war protesters is unbelievable tbh.
The power of the internet I guess, no idea where we go from here.
Huge cyber attack will only turn off the gas for Germany as it's still flowing for now.
How long before Russian bombers actually go into uk air space over the Orkneys?
It's Finland's fault for winning gold in the ice hockey.
The invasion of Iraq was particularly egregious, since the US shattered the post-war consensus by invading a sovereign state not on the grounds of retaliation, but as a pre-emptive strike.
Yep, it does feel like we've been on a pretty shaky downward trajectory since 911 really
I suppose it depends on how sane Putin is; he might have completely lost the plot. He's also got a lot of nukes. Time to move to Patagonia perhaps.
Anyone with a cursory knowledge of the history of the mid-to-late 20th and early 21st century will be hard pressed not to hear the condemnations from these countries as sounding hollow after the wars and invasions in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Libya.
Well, without wishing to derail the thread, and may I also start by saying I don't condone the invasion of Iraq; but Hussein was a very bad man and an evil dictator, and whilst I don't know much about the Ukrainian government I don't think they are as bad and I do not get the impression the Ukrainians need saving from them. Although I'm happy to be corrected here.
Close enough to say the pilot was lost or some rubbish im not saying Thay have invasion plans. it's Putin all bets are off.
There are live feeds from st Petersburg protesting that's brave very brave
timbog160
Full MemberChernobyl? I mean why on Earth would you want to capture Chernobyl!?
For the Artifacts obviously.
whilst I don’t know much about the Ukrainian government I don’t think they are as bad and I do not get the impression the Ukrainians need saving from them. Although I’m happy to be corrected here.
Totally agree, but that's just a question of optics when you start launching unprovoked invasions. But you're right, no need to go off-topic.
Didn't the US sponsor the overthrow of the democratically elected government in an illegal coup in 2014? After the War on Terror, etc., Libya "intervention" I just tuned out and stopped paying attention to all that stuff. A lot of has been going on in the Ukraine for a while now. I'm largelty ignorant of it.
The media portrays Putin as a lone wolf acting with execuative power, but perhaps recent geopolitical events allowed him to present a credible case to his generals and military for such a significant attack, given the political and economic costs must have been clear to see. I suppose that's all conjecture at this point.
I read something on the news saying that they weren't going to exclude Russia from Swift 'yet' and that sanctions against Putin personally remain an option.
Given what has unfolded today, could someone less ignorant than me explain why we haven't done that yet? Surely there is justification for hitting them as hard as possible with every sanction we have available? Is it a symbolic thing so that in a few weeks time, if Putin hasn't seen the error of his ways, we have something to escalate to?
I've been wondering about that too^^
Mainly, why are people focusing on SWIFT so much as well as why no-one will use it as part of the sanctions
The media portrays Putin as a lone wolf acting with execuative power, but perhaps recent geopolitical events allowed him to present a credible case to his generals and military for such a significant attack
I'm content in my knowledge that it's the former
SWIFT - an explainer.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/24/what-is-swift-international-payments-network-russia-sanction
Surely there is justification for hitting them as hard as possible with every sanction we have available?
I’d guess that if you hit Putin with every possible sanction from the start and he still ignores you where do you go from there? Only option then is direct conflict.
$650bn in foreign currency reserves; oil and exports still flowing generating more hard currency.
That gives putin something of a financial/economic buffer.
Then consider that Vlad is viewed as the wealthiest person in the world so he could chip in...
I fear it's only going to take one incident involving a NATO asset to start the next world war. Accidental or not, I think the fuse is getting very close to the fire.
I suppose it depends on how sane Putin is; he might have completely lost the plot. He’s also got a lot of nukes.
Not very, it would seem. And yeah. More nukes than the US.
stcolin
I fear it’s only going to take one incident involving a NATO asset to start the next world war. Accidental or not, I think the fuse is getting very close to the fire.
I would think (and hope) that the adults in the room would do everything they could to avoid that.
Amazing to see footage of the protests in Russian cities. I think the biggest thing we can all do now as little people is share the shit out of that stuff whenever we see it.
Can the gov confiscate (not just freeze) the Russian assets in London, in a similar way to the police can recover assets from criminals? I wonder if that would have more leverage than just putting a hold on moving the assets.
StuF - I think the closest they can get (at present) is using Unexplained Wealth Orders.
@nexta_tv on Twitter is worth a look too.
I would think (and hope) that the adults in the room would do everything they could to avoid that.
That would mean one side has to give way but as we know Putin is not the one.
The only way to prevent Putin demanding more is for the West to beef up like it or not, otherwise it will happen again and again.
Re. SWIFT. I’m working on a system that uses SWIFT at the moment. It can’t be underestimated how important this is to the moving of money across the globe.
If Russia were to be removed from Swift their banks would have no money within days.
However, a lot of that money that won’t get through is for payment for Oil and gas. So, Russia will simply stop supplying it. Hence the reticence from Europe.
There is also an already real cyber threat to our financial systems that will multiple ten fold if they are removed.
Interestingly china and Russia are working together to build a rival to Swift that will allow them to trade with no reliance on the west…..
I would think (and hope) that the adults in the room would do everything they could to avoid that.
I'm assuming that the red button is metaphorical and not an actual trigger.
So if Putin gave the order to fire would the guy in charge of the missiles have the courage to say no to him? If he did would he just be replaced by someone who would say yes?
Or would those in the upper echelons say 'you've gone too far now, out!' and if so who would do that and who would take over?
Follow Dr Peter Caddick-Adams on Twitter Military Historian/advisor
PCA!
Seems It's 1939 world war II has kicked off, Ferdinand Porsche is living the high life in good ol' london town chumming around with Chamberlin and Co while tanks built in his factories are rolling across Poland.
Interesting that Biden seemed to imply that the reticence on SWIFT was driven by European concerns. Have seen some reports of reluctance on the part of Germany and Italy in particular on this.
Didn't know whether to put this here or on the F1 thread but Haas F1 are removing all Uralkali sponsor branding from their car for tomorrow's final day of testing in Barcelona.
No news on whether they will be ditching the sponsor altogether.
No chance.
timbog - yeah, saw those comments about Germany and Italy.
The Italian concern appears to be based on their luxury goods sector; target market definitely won't be your average Russian.
That sort of attitude stinks and should be called out - as should any other country or business which attempts to svoid their moral responsibilities and obligations.