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he will say that he’s protecting the “ethnically Russian” people
A reason the Baltic states worry with, I dunno, 25% ethnically Russian people largely post russification before the 80s. It's a strategy.
If this happens it will be terrible for those poor Ukrainians. TBH Putin needs removing.
Honestly do you ever question what you read in newspapers and social media?
I certainly question anything "reported" in a Kremlin approved Russian media outlet. Russian claims that Ukraine is attacking them is utterly transparently propaganda.
With U.S. news reports on intelligence findings, those are very obviously reporting on what the U.S. government wants to be public and you'll find that the Washington Post has published articles explaining why the U.S. government is doing that (to troll Putin, basically).
With any media report, you need to look at what evidence is presented. For example, reports that Russian forces were being withdrawn were not supported by anything in the way of independent reports from within Russia showing the tanks and other heavy equipment being shipped the hundreds of kilometers back to where it came from. Without that independent verification, you'd have to be very naive to believe anything the Russian government says. Yet, people seem to take it at face value. Useful idiots, as the Russians call them.
The U.S. and NATO are less likely to tell outright lies like the Russian government does as a routine thing, they are more likely to not report things on the grounds of "security". They have said publicly that they are supplying Ukraine with anti-tank and anti-helicopter missiles. That is obviously intended as a message to Russia. it was made public because the U.S. wants Russia to know. So, yes, anytime a government makes a statement, it is done for a reason. That doesn't mean that what they are saying is not correct, it just means that they have decided that it is in their interest to say it.
<blockquoteA reason the Baltic states worry with, I dunno, 25% ethnically Russian people largely post russification before the 80s.
.... and his definition of ethnically Russian has become looser allowing him, in his head, to go in where he really shouldn't.
i’m struggling to see the positives of this type of conflict for Russia.
The earlier stages did make sense eg Sevastopol and hence the rest of Crimea (to protect it) are important strategically for the navy.
Currently I think it is mostly pride and wanting to undermine the nearby democracies to make them seem less appealing as a way of governing. Or possibly to try and push Ukraine into renouncing rights to the Crimea.
The U.S. and NATO are less likely to tell outright lies like the Russian government does
Yes, of course they are. They have such a great track record of being honest and trustworthy! 🙄
The point I'm trying to get across here is that this good vs evil interpretation of something that's extremely complicated is very silly. I get that it allows people to play at being armchair generals and thols in particular is very good at it, but the reality is that all of us know f-all about what's really going on so making proclamations about who is right or wrong, and choosing sides like it's some sort of playground fight after school is pretty stupid.
@Thols
Thats your opinion of it ass you see it, Im sure others will disagree.
As to bombing of civilians, are you saying the western powers you support were justified by THEIR bombing of civilians in the middle eastern conflicts. Certainly sounds like it.
I know you likely dont think so, but just by stating it im undermining your position. See how easy it is. So quit accusing people mate eh 😕
Furthermore 'Classic false flag operations'
I thought those were reports in the newspaper of weapons of mass destruction, and claims 'they' were going to attack us any minute, through to protecting our ex pat citizens. Yes we've all used those term to justify our actions, and i would even go so far as to say we can parallel our use of the term back to some of the worst dictators or 'regimes' in modern history.
When it comes to false flag operations, we wrote the book
" Well, for a kick-off even he doesn’t call himself a journalist. Given that he’s blamed all the ills of the world at various times on ...."
OK, so he's a bit deluded. I suppose someone in that position reading hat many background reports might well be but none of that is justification for arresting, detaining, imprisoning and threatening him with deportation to a country with a terrible record of human rights within their prison system. From what I've read about prison systems, America is considerably worse than most of the third world prisons.
His crime ?, his actual crime - Reporting war crimes carried out by the United States. That alone should have alarm bells ringing. But it seems that minor point is being overlooked
I didnt say that did I?, thats your rhetoric and opinion of it.One thing that you are guilty of is following the western propaganda, in your use of the term 'Regime' this is an easy descriptive that the US uses to describe any government they are hostile to.
Of course Human rights in Syria arent great, Syria could never ever by classed as a lawless state.
but compared against how many in prison in the US,its hatred, its endemic racism, its history, homeless kids in the UK, starving people in rich western countries, then the use of the term 'regime' could be placed at the door of many of them.. How many dead children can we attribute to our own actions in the last 30 years. Have we the right to criticize anyone else 😕
Interesting to note, though im not accusing you of anything, but FuzzyWuzzy is a derogatory term
When we look at the UK cabinet. How many are wearing military uniforms. Now look at the US. How many tv press conferences do we see attended by US generals
We could rightly call the US a military regime. Which likens it to tinpot dictatorships.
Thols is a big boy, he can speak for himself. 😉 Unless of course you think hes a bit... fruity loopo and needs protecting from his own words 😆
" It could be Dahz does think most of us take media stories entirely at face value. "
Yup, you hit the nail on the head there. Clearly you and others here do follow and fully support this premise because we can judge that from the way they jump on anyone with a differing opinion.
" Youre an idiot, youre a fool, youre naive, you this, you that, you must support whatever horrible dictatorship etc etc etc" all personal attacks on the individual for their opinion. At least this far in we're seeing a bit of agreement that the western alliance isnt as white and cuddly as was being stricken from the earlier conversation which was obvious purely by the lack of it. That one sided view of the world.
------------------------
" The U.S. and NATO are less likely to tell outright lies like the Russian government does as a routine thing, they are more likely to not report things on the grounds of “security”. They have said publicly that they are supplying Ukraine with anti-tank and anti-helicopter missiles."
Utterly utterly deluded. You clearly ignore everything else and stick to such with superglue you must be some sort of US bot, planted to confuse us all. That is 100% the rhetoric of a fee paying tory voting daily mail commentator.
What a crazy thread. And if im the nut, then there's a Christmas hamper's worth of them in here with me 😯
And if im the nut, then there’s a Christmas hamper’s worth of them in here with me
Come on, you think that Syria using chemical weapons on civilians is a good thing. You do gotta admit that you sound a bit crazy when you endorse war crimes like that.
No Thols i dont. And neither do i condone the use of cluster bombs used by us. And that was after we promised to never ever use those things again. But as the foreign secretary said at the time, they were deemed necessary.
So who knows what we'll target someone elses civilians with in the future.
Oh yes right Syria. A nasty dictatorship.
He wasnt installed by us was he ? 😕 Theres so many nasty evil regimes around the world we had a hand in creating, installing, training and supplying, its hard to keep track of.
His crime ?, his actual crime – Reporting war crimes carried out by the United States. That alone should have alarm bells ringing. But it seems that minor point is being overlooked
No, that's not his crime. The reason he's in jail right now is that he jumped bail in 2010 to stop being sent to Sweden to face charges of rape (which would've made his extradition to the US more difficult not less and it'd need both the UK and Swedish legal systems to agree to, but that's another story) and that's the exact situation he finds himself in now.
Chelsea Manning stopped sending him info because he wanted her to adopt another user name, something she was reluctant to do as it challenged her ability to claim public interest, and reveals that Assange wanted her to hack the Pentagon system, which is illegal and something that any real journalist wouldn't dream of doing (or would understand that by breaking some laws, the US might be interested in going after him) Proper journalist won't work with him after he reportedly told the Guardian when challenged about the ethics of revealing names of Afghan nationals working with US forces "Well, they're informants, So, if they killed, they've got it coming to them"
At his first hearing in 2010 the judge called him a "narcissist who cannot get beyond his own selfish interests"
So here we are in 2021 and he's not in the dock for any of this, If he's innocent of hacking the Pentagon or he's got a good public interest claim, then let him have his day in court, but right now, he's in Belmarsh because he doesn't want to do any of that.
Hes in Belmarsh because they're fighting extradition to the US, Sweden dropped their case due to Sweden's statute of limitations. Theres no extradition to Sweden which leaves us with the extradition to the US. That is the entire sum of why he is where he is.
Sure, he's a disreputable character, nobody has denied that, but thats not the issue, the issue is the US wants him and lets face facts, they get him over there its a show trial, a judicial system that at best is flawed, culminating with a whole life sentence, which as far as everyone is aware is a forgone conclusion. So theres no 'Day in Court'
The office of the United Nations high commissioner for human rights found that Assange is effectively being held in arbitrary detention.
Plus the charges against him are not of him hacking the pentagon, but of publishing the details of someone else hacking the pentagon. He's a publisher remember. That is wiki leaks primary reason for being.
To anyone that is testimony to whatever freedoms we shold hold highest. Not a reason for trying to destroy the organization.
We champion whistle blowing, but then denounce anyone caught doing it.
Julian Assanges personal circumstances are a distraction in this case.
Hes in Belmarsh because they’re fighting extradition to the US
No he is in Belmarsh because the authorities declined to grant him bail this time round for some odd reason. Anyone else facing the same charges would get to stay at home or some other suitable location, say a friends mansion, whilst the extradition case is fought.
The office of the United Nations high commissioner for human rights found that Assange is effectively being held in arbitrary detention.
You mean when he was hiding in the embassy refusing to come out? He was detaining himself.
We champion whistle blowing, but then denounce anyone caught doing it.
Plenty of whistle blowers are praised eg Manning and Snowden but Assange burnt through a lot of goodwill.
I’d rather be Julian Assange than Alexei Navalny.
Fair point. But both are as we say - fked.
The difference is that Assange gets three meals a day, medical treatment, access to lawyers, etc. Navalny got poisoned by a nerve agent, then imprisoned where he is denied access to lawyers, subjected to torture and sleep deprivation and denied medical treatment.
At the same time, his supporters are oppressed, jailed and sometimes meet tragic ends.
Assange could get out soon. Navalny's not coming out unless it is in a box or Putin goes.
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1494264636258009088
https://twitter.com/scotlandishson/status/1494324457019621380
Russian embassy burning documents. Embassy staff do this when they know they are going to need to evacuate.
https://twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1494255268619816961
You really need to let this go Thols, its like an obsession with you and this level is the level that affects mental health.
It's ok to speculate, to debate what is happening in the halls of power, or the game between countries, but when you keep posting and keep posting its a sign that maybe its time to look for something less stressful and damaging to occupy your time.
the game between countries
This is not a game for Ukrainians. Similarly, it wasn't a game for the thousands of Syrian civilians who were killed by chemical weapons launched by a murderous dictator who you express admiration for. Thousands of Ukrainians have already been killed in the ongoing Russian invasion. Russia is behaving exactly the way you would expect them to just prior to launching an invasion, but you think it's all a game for your amusement.
Looks like it's all still on for the 22nd then. Horrible.
Horrible.
Nah, apparently it's just a game. Slaughtering thousands of civilians with chemical weapons is all just a jolly jape, it seems.
but you think it’s all a game for your amusement.
We're not the ones posting a running commentary like it's a football match. Come on man, give up on the faux-outrage and just admit it gets your juices going. There's no shame in it, you wouldn't be the first red blooded male to get excited about a fight you're not involved in. 😄
I'm not excited, I'm extremely worried. If you have an ounce of sense, you'd be very worried about Russia massing troops on the border of a neighboring country that it has already partially invaded. It's not a game, thousands of Ukrainians have already died fighting the ongoing Russian invasion, it's the most serious situation in Europe in many decades.
This is not a game for Ukrainians.
It certainly isn't. they're stuck with endemic corruption, poor economy, social services at breaking point or non existent, and with a bunch of shiny new and hugely damaging weapons being shipped into the country daily.
Here, something for you to watch, and please do try to watch it, and not just stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la la la.
Try to look at the aspects of this from more than a single side. Being patriotic is ok, but blindly following the narrative is an extremely dangerous position to put yourself into.
The shows guests aren't Ruskie agents(They're all Americans themselves), but have a better perspective and a better understanding of the situation and the history of this entire state of affairs than we do. Especially the historians.
https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/549709-russia-plans-ukraine-invasion/
Not an apologist for Putin... here, check this out on RT...
Not an apologist for Putin… here, check this out on RT…
Not an apologist for UK/US. Here's a report from CNN/Sky News/BBC.. 🙂
I’m not excited, I’m extremely worried.
Then maybe step away from the news and social media? You have zero control or influence over it, so worrying about it is pointless and unhealthy. You have no more idea about what's really happening than anyone else no matter how many news reports or twitter feeds you read. Human brains are very good at focusing on worst case scenarios, so try to fight the instinct and you'll be less worried. 🙂
worrying about it is pointless and unhealthy.
Then why do you keep coming back here and posting nonsense?
CNN/Sky News/BBC
Please don’t try and imply that these outlets are in any way equivalent to RT. Just because occasional stories are badly researched or maybe even biased doesn’t mean that decent, independent news isn’t available from them.
RT on the other had has a single objective, and that does not involve independent news or balanced reporting in any way.
Any of CNN, Sky or BBC is not set up to promote a single government message. RT is.
Try and find a single story critical of the Russian government on RT. Seriously.
Once you’ve wasted a few hours doing that look at the headline stories on any of the above and you’ll find negative stories on Biden, Johnson et al within seconds.
Denouncing genuine media is dangerous. I’d rather have free but imperfect media than what they have in Russia and China i.e. a single, government controlled and censored source of news. And an internet locked down so independent reporting is impossible.
The peace loving and very wise Vlad has decided that Saturday is a good great day to test out his strategic nuclear toys.
If you're near any USAF air bases and you see a lot of frantic activity over the weekend, lots of aircraft taking off, not squawking, then shit your pants.
Mebe have a read up on the hilarious misunderstands caused by exercise Able Archer 83.
Any of CNN, Sky or BBC is not set up to promote a single government message.
You are joking aren't you? The BBC in particular is the media mouthpiece of the British establishment. FFS Nicholas Witchell the other day was trying to convince everyone that Prince Andrew could be a campaigner against sex traffickers! Sky news is the best of all of them, but it's bias is more subtle. CNN is a basekt-case of corporate american propaganda. None of these are truly independent, impartial or critical of the western political establishment.
Then why do you keep coming back here and posting nonsense?
I feel really sorry for you Thols, you've another shut mind. (Which has been clear to us for quite some time now), but petty snipes and insults aside, what you are doing thols is ignoring all bar one side. You arent taking anything into account, you arent accepting and saying to yourself 'Hey, I dont really know or understand all the details and history' 'Know what' think ill see what unbiased academics think of the situation.
I'll read the news. I'l read US papers, the mainstream and the local, I'll read Russian papers, and Ukrainian papers.English papers, European papers. I'll listen to all sides. I'll try to get an overall picture, accepting neither to one side or the other, and with that information, coupled with historical detail, I'll be in a better position to understand the situation.
Because that is the route that people take to become informed.
But no. You stick your fingers in your ears, shut your eyes and go la la la la la la. Then go off and attack anyone you see as not following or agreeing to the small view you've thus taken.
I personally think that is a very sad position to be in. But at least you aren't alone, you've Kelvin and a few others to keep you company.
The BBC in particular is the media mouthpiece of the British establishment.
Maitlis interview with Prince Andrew?
Send me a link to the story about Putin's palace from RT.
I’d like to congratulate dyna-ti for achieving chewkw levels in this thread.
Try and find a single story critical of the Russian government on RT. Seriously.
First show us a US paper or news channel(mainstream) saying that American influence in the Ukraine and eastern Europe is utterly wrong.
I reckon you're going to struggle here.
And i'd like to thank you for ignoring everything thats been said on all sides and trying to play for laughs. Dear lord you are an intellectual giant.
Then why do you keep coming back here and posting nonsense?
Work avoidance mostly. Isn't that why everyone is here?
Work avoidance mostly. Isn’t that why everyone is here?
And to humblebrag about Wordle feats.
I feel really sorry for you Thols, you’ve another shut mind
@dyna-ti - can you possibly wind back the passive aggressiveness a bit please?
Also, I'm not sure that sharing vids from Russian state controlled media is being objective, given that RT routinely puts out disinformation. Objectivity isn't about getting two opposing points of view and choosing between them.
First show us a US paper or news channel(mainstream) saying that American influence in the Ukraine and eastern Europe is utterly wrong.
Seriously?
Do you even read quality papers? There's a counterpoint in The Times on NATO and European strategy most days at the moment.
It's behind a paywall, but here's an excerpt which I hope passes the rules:
If Ukraine, desperate to know Moscow’s intentions and the price of de-escalation, could be persuaded to put its Nato application on ice, as some local politicians suggest, Mr Putin would then have won the bulk of what he wanted without incurring catastrophic sanctions or having to sacrifice Russian lives. He could present this at home as a victory for a master strategist.
And anyway, there might be strong and rational arguments that US influence in Eastern Europe has secured peace for the last 70 years, no?
The problem with that is that RT is funded by the Russian state ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/06/13/in-case-you-werent-clear-on-russia-todays-relationship-to-moscow-putin-clears-it-up/) and has been censured for being propaganda already ( https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia+Today+Germany+ban&oq=Russia+Today+Germany+ban&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30.5387j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8).
RT, along with Sputnik, is a primary source of Russin mis-information and a key part of their information warfare capability ( https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/kremlin%E2%80%99s-expanding-media-conglomerate). Yes, I expect CNN and Sky to have a pro-western BIAS, but both those sources can and do criticise their parent countries, sometimes frequently. They are also not funded by the state (which gets you a different set of bias.
This is nothign to do with having a closed mind either, it's about looking at the available data, assessing it for truthfulness and accuracy and then giving it a level of relevance. In this case, RT is not a trustworthy source.
I'm just watching the news now(whilst the wind outside is going mad...) hoping for deescalation.
That said I did watch RT last night for an hour or two. That was an eye opener.
Thank goodness for the BBC, ITV and channel 4 news is all I can say. I'll never take them for granted again.
Thank goodness for the BBC, ITV and channel 4 is all I can say.
Too right.
I’d like to congratulate dyna-ti for achieving chewkw levels in this thread.
Dear lord you are an intellectual giant.
Many a true word is said in jest...?
Just saying.
First show us a US paper or news channel(mainstream) saying that American influence in the Ukraine and eastern Europe is utterly wrong.
Here's the thing. Ukraine kicked out a corrupt Russian-leaning leader and chose to pursue closer ties with the EU. That's what Ukrainians wanted. Putin rejected this and invaded Crimea and eastern Ukraine. It seems likely that he misjudged and believed that his invasion would be welcomed by Ukrainians. It wasn't and Ukraine has been fighting the Russian invasion ever since. This has turned into a huge embarrassment for Putin so he has now massed an enormous army on the borders of Ukraine and made a bunch of demands to the U.S. and NATO that he knows they will not accept. What is strange about this is that Putin isn't negotiating with Ukraine, he's insisting on negotiating with the U.S. over the future of Ukraine. Ukrainians apparently have no right to determine the direction of their own country. Ukraine has been begging for military and economic assistance from the U.S. and E.U., but the economic assistance has been conditional on fighting corruption and the military assistance was very limited until the current Russian build-up started.
So, the only influence America has is at the request of Ukraine, which is afraid that the ongoing Russian invasion is about to escalate. Your question then is, why don't American media outlets just parrot the Russian propaganda that you read in the Russian outlets?
can you possibly wind back the passive aggressiveness a bit please?
WOW, just WOW 😯
TBH thats not aggressive, and certainly not as bad as calling someone an idiot. That has been leveled at me a number of times and you've yet to step in.
Also, I’m not sure that sharing vids from Russian state controlled media is being objective
So Peter John Lavelle is a paid agent of the Russian government ? Peter Lavelle, the American journalist (Ba,Ma,Phd) well versed and qualified in European Economic history
Why is it when ever someone on one of RT's programs questions the lunacy of US foreign policy, the spouted comments say that the Russian government is responsible for their rhetoric.. Why not think or agree that the individuals on these programs with great concerns of their own are best placed to be able to level such accusations against their own government.
Cold it possibly be that were they to ask CNN, or Fox or any other the other channels for airtime or a show it would be anything other than refused.
THAT is censorship mate, Clear and simple.
So where else should they go to put these points out into the public domain.