What makes it undesirable elsewhere?
Their belief/belief system(s).
Utter bollocks mate.
There's none so blind as those who refuse to see.
In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?
We can't send nukes as he'll send them back but we're glad you're finally seeing the error of your ways.
In what ways are Ukrainian belief systems different to ours?
They are part of the former Soviet bloc.
They have multiple "beliefs" systems with the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc), while the western part more pro-western, then you have the in between. This is also consistent with their voting pattern. Essentially, you could also consider this a "civil war", hence Russia considers this as special operation.
We can’t send nukes as he’ll send them back but we’re glad you’re finally seeing the error of your ways.
Therefore, how do you intend to solve the problem?
...the eastern part of the nation completely Russian (belief in Russian dominance etc),
Are you sure about that?
I'd be interested to hear what Dolly Parton's got to say about all this.
Are you sure about that?
Yes, I am sure. (Especially south east)
Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”.
FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?
Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.
What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.
chewkw
Free Member
Essentially, you could also consider this a “civil war”
Only if your name is Vladimir Putin. This is a straight up invasion fella.
I’d dispute those were the real reasons for the invasions either
Sure, I'm not justifying those invasions. Someone asked what the difference was. Similarly, Iraq and Afghanistan were poor countries and not white Europeans. That made a difference, I'm sure. Not in an 'it's ok to kill them cos they're not worth it' sort of way, for most people, but more in a 'poor ignorant savages need a white saviour' sort of way. And also in a 'maybe we can use this' sort of way.
> removed as replying to a comment that’s been removed <
Jesus, I'll not quote that molly if you want to delete it...
FFS how is it a civil war when one country invades another?
Like it or not, Ukraine is a sovereign state with borders, constitution, elected government and free speech.
What we are seeing is NOT a civil war.
Long story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East do not want to join the West fearing themselves to be turned into 2nd class citizen, and started to rebel against the idea. You can debate about Russia having a hand but the same can be true with the West/NATO having a hand in the Ukraine. Then the poo hit the fans. That's the Russian interpretation.
That will be why Mariupol is fighting to the last man then? There are undeniably ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and some of them definitely lean towards Russia. But there was a democratically elected government in place that is not what the wee monkey Putin wants as a risk to his hegemony so close to his borders so he's trying to stamp it out. Therefore you choose democracy or autocracy. Also to state that Russians are universally content living under Putin's rule belies any insight into either the public Vs private process in an autocracy nor the humanity to understand they would vote him out if they were able to. You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.
There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.
Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action? You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?
You have swallowed propoganda to the maximum possible extent and it is not insightful.
I see propaganda from both sides which is normal in current situation but I don't believe in either.
There are bits of Ukraine which obviously feel Russian, but that isn’t a belief system. That’s a sense of nationalism/ethnicity. Clearly, the majority of Ukrainians don’t feel Russian, hence the course of this war.
Whether they are nationalistic etc is for them to decide but in the current situation it is too late to debate about it. As they said the horse has bolted.
Now they have entered the domain of realism and that means buffer zone and "Monroe doctrine" in the context of powerful nation states.
Also interestingly, so what if the majority of people in a certain area want to be part of Russia? Wouldn’t accepting their right for their views to count actually be democracy in action?
You need to ask the people as I am merely interpreting what I see.
You are in rather a quandary here chewie, why should their views matter if they apparently don’t believe in democracy?
Some do some don't but the bottom line is the buffer zone. They live next door to a powerful nation state with nukes then they better prepare not to rock the boat.
chewkw
Free MemberLong story short, if you look back the pro-Russian East/South East
I think you are probably over-reaching too much here, far too simplistic a reading and sectioning of certain sections of the country very arbitrarily there. I'm sure there is some Russia nationalists in Ukraine, are they nice grouped into certain areas? Doubt that very much tbh.
I read this earlier when i was looking into something about the pro-russian parties that Zensky had banned. (Was just trying to verify the pro-russian part, which I think is fair enough.) But this was an interesting read, specifically in relation to the last election and how Opposition Platform—For Life gained their seats.
Russian propaganda in the area didn't just start in february. They've been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don't really tell the whole story.
Russia propaganda in the area didn’t just start in february. They’ve been skewing things for a while it seems. and simple election results don’t really tell the whole story.
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much "democracy" as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
Info wars this evening is it?
https://twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800?s=20&t=zEX-bOddE08gfUBzDOgzNg
chewkw - In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the "ruling party" consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don't support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
How do they have democracy whilst being under Russian control?
Info wars this evening is it,?
Nahhh ... I don't even read them.
chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Is that normal in democracy with a party getting 75%?
Also in their opinion polls on referendum regarding joining NATO, South and East consistently voted against. Only the West and Centre consistently vote for joining NATO. The country is split.
…..well. It’s democracy
slowoldman
Full Member
chewkw – In the last elections in Ukraine Zelenkyy and his party got something like 75% of the vote. In the UK the “ruling party” consistently get about half that. Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
75% in the presidential run-off, Zelensky got 30% in the first round(of 2), Servant of the People, Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote(seems it's a proportional system rather than FPTP). giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election
The link I posted a couple above is an interesting read regarding the last election, in the East in particular and Russian influence pre war.
All largely irrelevant to the invasion, as interesting as that is, it's all Putin.
Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Thats a trick question right? Cos I know it'd be wrong, but it's tempting.....
The Ukraine PM who remember is a drug pushing son of Satan Nazi spoke to the Israel Parliament via zoom.
Twist that one Putin fans (not there are any on here)
It's not a civil war it's an invasion with the beginnings ethnic cleansing going on.
One thing that is the wests fault is we ignored Putin and his early liberation campaigns sadly most of Europe has sucked up cheap gas and turned a blind eye. At least renewable energy sources are hopefully being now looked at.
They need their buffer zone is the bottom line. The rest are just side shows. i.e. Ukraine can have as much “democracy” as they like so long as they are under Russian control.
so, absolutely nothing do to with having a different belief system or having democracy forced upon them
Should those of us that don’t support the current elected party invite an invasion by France or Germany?
Wouldn't be the first time. Well, it was the Netherlands, but it happened.
The link I posted a couple above is an interesting read regarding the last election, in the East in particular and Russian influence pre war.
All largely irrelevant to the invasion, as interesting as that is, it’s all Putin.
Too late now as the reality has set in. Give Putin the buffer zone.
Also in their opinion polls on referendum regarding joining NATO, South and East consistently voted against. Only the West and Centre consistently vote for joining NATO. The country is split.
Source: International Republican Institute Survey. Interesting read that but just opinion polls.
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote... giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
Eh?
molgrips
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote… giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.
Eh?
Something to do with the proportional representation.
molgrips
Full Member
Zelenskys parliamentary party took 43% of the vote… giving them 254 seats in a 450 seat parliament.Eh?
what's not to get? 225 seats for the win.
There were 2 elections, a Presidential Election (Zelensky won the first round with 30% then won the shootout with Poroshenko with 75% in round 2) and a Parliamentary election(the party took 254 seats in the Rada, equating to 43% of the total vote.). I posted the results to both.
Chewie - the buffer zone is not ours to give. It belongs to the Ukrainian people - and right now they don’t seem to be in a mood for backing down.
Give Putin the buffer zone.
Appeasement has always been so successful in the past, I am sure it will work this time as well.
Give Putin the buffer zone
East Germany too.
That was a handy buffer zone for nearly 50 years.
Democracy, liberalism and freedom of speech was never their thing during that time either. Instead they embraced food shortages, internment, appalling health care and state spying on a scale never before seen.
Just give it back to Putin as he's got nukes?
Chewie – the buffer zone is not ours to give. It belongs to the Ukrainian people – and right now they don’t seem to be in a mood for backing down.
Yes, it's for the Ukrainian to decide but at the moment they are not winning or causing a stalemate. They don't have bargaining power on their side.
Appeasement has always been so successful in the past, I am sure it will work this time as well.
It will work for now.
In the long run it will be China that the world needs to worry.
East Germany too.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact. Not even in future.
Just give it back to Putin as he’s got nukes?
What other solution do they have?
Yes, it’s for the Ukrainian to decide
Spot on. And millions of them have decided to stay and fight the invasion, so pretty clear what 'they' have decided.
Many more millions have fled West, so pretty clear what they have decided too.
There are not massive refugee columns heading East, nor are their masses of Ukrainians surrendering to the Russians
By their collective actions it's clear that the Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia and nothing to do with a buffer zone.
It's really pretty simple.
And let's not just ignore this invasion and focus instead on China.
There will be no more powerful deterrent to Chinese action in Taiwan than a successful and unified response to Putin.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact. Not even in future.
Exactly. NATO works.
That's why Finland and Sweden are now considering joining.
Putin has made a huge mistake acting against a sovereign state because it makes other states feel vulnerable and is bringing about exactly what he was trying to avoid (NATO enlargement).
Spot on. And millions of them have decided to stay and fight the invasion, so pretty clear what ‘they’ have decided.
They can decide as much as they wish but within the framework control by Russia.
And let’s not just ignore this invasion and focus instead on China.
There will be no more powerful deterrent to Chinese action in Taiwan than a successful and unified response to Putin.
What is there to deter? They all have nukes.
If the West/NATO really want to contain China, then they need Russia on their side. Not to push Russia to China.
Exactly. NATO works.
Yes, it works but Ukraine is not a NATO member and will Not be.
That’s why Finland and Sweden are now considering joining.
Considering. They can consider as much as they wish.
Putin has made a huge mistake acting against a sovereign state because it makes other states feel vulnerable and is bringing about exactly what he was trying to avoid (NATO enlargement).
Strategically no mistake. Tactically (mistake) perhaps by assuming that he could just walk in.
No NATO members have been invaded. Fact
Well I guess Finland had better get that application in quickly.
Is chewie saying that the occupants of Kherson should just let themselves be ruled by Putin?
https://twitter.com/mrsorokaa/status/1505582573174546438?t=MoIe5-TzkmMTA1m0FlYuoA&s=19
^^The bravery on display gets to me every time.
Well I guess Finland had better get that application in quickly.
I think they might get away with joining as the are not really that populated and not that "strategic" in their position. Nevertheless, they really don't want to end up with minor nuke on their land.
Is chewie saying that the occupants of Kherson should just let themselves be ruled by Putin?
No, they don't have to cheer the Russian but they have to accept the fact they are under Russian control.
I think they might get away with joining as the are not really that populated and not that “strategic” in their position. Nevertheless, they really don’t want to end up with minor nuke on their land.
They are far more concerned and justifiably so, in being the subject of a full invasion.
Putin wants Finland back in the fold
Once he has extracted himself from the mess in Ukraine they'll be next
If his plan had succeeded and he'd taken Ukraine ias easily as he thought he might, he'd be that much closer
Hes underestimated how unified the response has been towards his war.
