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Would you need fast food if you didn't have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it's fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I'd be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn't be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn't need to because they wouldn have as many customers.
Adding master chef to the list, very talented fella! 😆
If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you'd bet they'd invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.
they'll do that eventually, infact they've already started, you don't even need to speak to anyone to order and pay for your food in some of them. the mcdonald people will be out of a job soon enough, as will supermarket check out staff, those transformations are well under way.
Would you need fast food if you didn't have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it's fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I'd be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn't be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn't need to because they wouldn have as many customers.
Adding master chef to the list, very talented fella!
I assumed the free food the state would provide would be food I had to prepare for myself?
nickc - MemberI don't think the people that clean up after I've left the office are worthless, and I'd imagine they don't think that either. That you can suggest it, probably says more about your attitudes to the low paid TBH.
Thats a false equivalence and a personal attack against me. Not appreciated when I'm just trying to stir discussion and understand the concept. I've not attacked anyone here AFAIK know, so not sure why thats warranted.
they'll do that eventually, infact they've already started
I wonder if automation will force UBI rather than the other way round? Interesting.
JSA is based around helping you find work and forcing you to take it, but if there aren't the jobs available, that won't work. The government may just decide that it's better to just pay everyone a flat rate and be done with it, hoping that the numbers who voluntarily quit or take reduced hours because they have their UBI will enable more people to get part-time work.
Would UBI make more sense if jobs are scarce but the economy is still growing?
We already have a level of non-universal basic income in this country: those under 18 receive a universal state payout, as do those over 67 (or whatever the current age is); there's only around 50 years in the middle where universal state support doesn't exist.
The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it'd still be a safety net rather than a way of life but it would also help to get rid of a raft of non-universal benefits and, with a decent livable minimum wage, could also remove the need for tax credits, etc.
Free-market Libertarian types should love this, because it simplifies and/or removes a whole load of state apparatus currently needed for administering the complex benefits system.
Remove the tax-free allowance (as UBI is essentially a negative income tax rate) and set tax levels such that anyone currently on the national median wage doesn't lose out. Those below median will benefit while those above will pay a little more.
Would you need fast food if you didn't have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it's fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I'd be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn't be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn't need to because they wouldn have as many customers.
So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?
So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?
put their arts degrees to good use?
It's funny as well, the middle managers that think they'll be immune, who do they think they are going to manage when all the jobs are automated...
The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it'd still be a safety net rather than a way of life
That's *far* worse than what we currently do. At least with means tested benifits a single mother gets a flat and a washing machine and a bit of travel allowance.
Free-market Libertarian types should love this, because it simplifies and/or removes a whole load of state apparatus currently needed for administering the complex benefits system.
Yep, and they do.
That's *far* worse than what we currently do. At least with means tested benifits a single mother gets a flat and a washing machine and a bit of travel allowance.The level of UBI could be set relatively low: enough cash to rent a room with communal facilities, pay for energy use, and enough peas and rice to be physically sustained. If this were the case, it'd still be a safety net rather than a way of life
Okay, so set higher than that.
So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?
Same as me with what would be effectively a free state pension for life - live a brilliant life.
learn 400 trades! 😆
In theory, I could work a day and a half a week and would earn about £500 per month. I could spend the other 5.5 days loafing about or learning to play the lute or whatever.
So what are the 1.5 million employees worldwide that MaDonalds hires through its franchises going to do now?
An undergraduate degree in anthropology?
I wonder if automation will force UBI rather than the other way round? Interesting.
My understanding is that automation will make UBI inevitable rather than the other way round. The alternative is too horrific to contemplate. Even the rich elites who perpetuate the idea that something for nothing is morally wrong, recognise the fact that their luxuries are dependent on a compliant population who are not on the streets smashing everything up. Without UBI, I think that's what would inevitably happen. When the people have nothing left to lose, they go after those who have everything.
My understanding is that automation will make UBI inevitable rather than the other way round.
Which is exactly what Karl Marx thought. He figured that mass production would render so many people out of work that it would make sense to pay people not to work. 100 years on, people have mostly found ways to earn a living outside of manufacturing but who's to say he wasn't spot on - just a few decades out.
Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.
Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.
Fully-automated luxury communism FTW!
Robots do the graft while we live rich and full lives.
Indeed. This central concept is IMO going to define politics for the next generation. The left are looking at this as an opportunity to liberate the people from the burden of unfulfilling work, whilst the right are looking at it as a means to make even more money and become even more powerful. As always I'm sure a messy compromise between these will be the end result, probably as some form of - probably inadequate - UBI.
And if it hasn't already been done, [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/11/labour-global-economy-planet ]here's a much better vision than I could ever think of[/url].
It's been possible to make robots for a while, or at least machines, for lots of jobs I reckon. But why spend millions on machines when you can just hire some poor sod who needs the minimum wage?
This is what I am talking about with regards employer relations.
Fully-automated luxury communism
And while I was slightly tongue in cheek in my first post I had a feeling before long this is where the thread would head.
Fully-automated luxury communism FTW!
Will there be hookers?
Interesting thing about this topic is that it gets well discussed, in the media and on here every time it comes up; instead of the usual partisan scorn that other ideas get (utility nationalisation etc).
And if it hasn't already been done, here's a much better vision than I could ever think of.
Great article for a change - a simple report on some pretty good ideas.
But why spend millions on machines when you can just hire some poor sod who needs the minimum wage?
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/mark-carney-britains-car-wash-economy-low-wage-jobs ]Posted this before on other threads but it's highly relevant to this point.[/url] It's a good example of how a UBI could have positive economic effects by stimulating investment and the production of high value jobs.
It's not so much robots, it's bots/AI/whatever which will be the biggest problem. Need legal advice? Financial services? Book a holiday? A ton of data needing analysed? A piece of artwork commissioned? Something designed? The day is coming when all of this will be cheaply and efficiently performed by non human things pretending to be human. It won't just be low end jobs lost either so people sitting [s]smugly[/s] comfortably on 40-50k jobs just now could well be in for a shock. The technology is here or thereabouts, what is keeping the brakes on it for now is customer perception. Once the hesitation goes then it will be a quick decline in employement opportunites for everyone.
In the same way that mass manufacturing didn't cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It's just more tools.
And if it hasn't already been done, here's a much better vision than I could ever think of.
good article that, ta.
In the same way that mass manufacturing didn't cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It's just more tools.
That's my gut feel. Every time in history we've been able to make/deliver/design stuff with less people, instead of living with the same stuff and doing less work we've found there was actually more 'stuff' we wanted. I suspect that trend will continue. ...but who knows.
instead of living with the same stuff and doing less work we've found there was actually more 'stuff' we wanted.
Yes. In the past, rather than 'we don't need all these people to work any more' we've said 'now we have all these people doing nothing, they can do all this other stuff'.
TheBrick - Member
In the same way that mass manufacturing didn't cause a collapse in jobs but for new economy to emerge so will automation. Tools have been improving efficiency for 100s of years. It's just more tools.
We basically agree, what we're discussing here is what will these new tools enable us to do? how should we shape the future.
Absolutely agree this is the way forward. A basic level of state services provided for everybody so you can survive. If you want more you get a job.
I love the 'I work therefore others should' mentality. Crazy. There is no reason to work unless you need/ want the money or you enjoy it.
Interesting some have posted the old 'learn the value of money' adage. The sooner we realise money has no value the better.
It's just adding a level of indirection and administrative costs. As the money will just come from the first X thousands you earn as tax will need to be higher at low levels. You will still need to work in reality.
.andykirk - MemberI love the 'I work therefore others should' mentality. Crazy. There is no reason to work unless you need/ want the money or you enjoy it
Stockholm syndrome.
What's quite funny is that large employers are among the first to see the need for UBI- and it's not out of love for the people, it's because they realise our current social structure can't work without either wages or UBI. And having broken the basic terms of the deal- that we work, and they pay us- they're now looking at what to do next. Meanwhile the people most hostile to it are those who've never had to work, and a big chunk of those that work and don't like it.
I could spend the other 5.5 days loafing about or learning to play the lute or whatever.
My cousin is married to a professional lutenist, it is not all it is cracked up to be.
Yeah, I feel much better since I went luten free
It would be interesting to see if the reality of "I'd just pick up a job whenever I needed some cash" would work out - I can see millions of people being at this level. Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.
Would everything else basically run as it is now. Plenty on here seem to be suggesting they'd make do. No people taking holidays? Goodbye airlines, airports etc. No new (company?) car. There's garages and what little car making we have left. The list could go on significantly.
All these peopple are now possibly looking for new jobs that don't exist.
Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.
That's why I think job sharing or part time working would become more popular. I think most people wouldn't mind working half as much if it didn't take up so much time.
It would be interesting to see what employers would have to do.
Interestingly i was chatting with 2 gpod mates of mine tonight who lived through soviet era and the end of soviet era.
Both enjoyed comunism and said they would gladly go back to comunism.
They said at the emd which was falling apart times were tough but up till then life was good and they still though capitalism of the west was a wierd concept.
Until i asked themwhy they were in africa trying to earn more for their family - isnt that just capitalism ?
They agreed.
It would be interesting to see what employers would have to do.
Go to countries without such a stupid system.
But would people work the same way, and would employers work the same way? The relationship would certainly change.
This is the bit that fascinates me. I reckon "wages" would be paid for productivity rather than attendance, polar opposite to what often happens now. That would reward those who want to work out of positive motivation rather than negative, and arguably be more efficient for the businesses too as the only people working would be the ones looking to maximise output rather than doing as little as possible to not be sacked.
Would this be the pattern in all sectors, at all levels? Not sure. Still trying to figure that out......
Go to countries without such a stupid system.
how are Tesco going to sell me bread from a different country. they'll still need stores here.
Directly and indirectly I have been employed in the business of making other people unemployed for several years.
Not in HR sense but just making business a bit more efficient. With fewer staff to pay they make more money which is the whole point of it of course.
AI/Bots/Voice tech seems to be what everyone is talking about now. I cant see any other option than using some of that extra profit to provide an income for people who would otherwise be employed.
A convoy can only travel at the speed of its slowest ship.
how are Tesco going to sell me bread from a different country. they'll still need stores here.
They will run their UK business for cash and either invest in countries with more growth potential or return it to the investors who will do the same.
It would be interesting to see if the reality of "I'd just pick up a job whenever I needed some cash" would work out - I can see millions of people being at this level. Picking up casual work might get quite difficult if thats what everyone else is trying to do.Would everything else basically run as it is now. Plenty on here seem to be suggesting they'd make do. No people taking holidays? Goodbye airlines, airports etc. No new (company?) car. There's garages and what little car making we have left. The list could go on significantly.
All these peopple are now possibly looking for new jobs that don't exist.
And that means if you're lucky enough to have a job, you don't dare get fired because there are millions ready to replace you at a moments notice. That means you end up working every shift possible to avoid being let go for not being a "team player" and you stay late every day lest you be accused of "lack of culture fit"
So the employer ends up with even more power over you.