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Molgrips. Step back to the 70s/80s.
Increased Home owner ship had ulterior motives. What was that then. Sold to the layman the utopian dream .
Reality- get the working class out their cooncil houses so they cannot afford to strike....
I don't see many cleaners on 30k.plyphon - Member
seosamh77 - Member
pay them more money, but you aren't willing to do that either.
Am I not?
But the question is, how do you make the life of someone doing a shit job (my expression) better?
By perhaps giving them a boost to their wages that is not based on welfare benefits as a punitive measure? (as they are currently), I dunno, maybe a universal payment given to everyone in society? And perhaps re-ordering society so that it is not directed solely towards the amassing of vast wealth by a tiny few. This is not beyond our imagination but it does mean a revolution. Along with revolutions in how we allocate resources, choose not pollute, and automate our production.
Missed this so far but probably a good thing. UBI is one of my favourite subjects though. The way I see it is that it's a simple decision between whether we want to live in a society where everyone has the basics of life (food, water, shelter, sanitation, healthcare etc) provided, along with some other economically strategic luxuries (education, transport, internet etc), or whether we are ok with tripping over homeless people in our cities, being the victims of petty crime, observing the daily depressing sights of urban and social decay, and exposing our kids to horrors they shouldn't have to see (ever had a child ask you why that homeless man is so dirty, covered in scabs and sitting in the street in the rain?). This stuff isn't rocket science, we either abandon our jealous prejudices about people 'getting something for nothing', or we continue with the status quo. I know what I'd prefer.
But the question is, how do you make the life of someone doing a shit job (my expression) better?
Would it be entirely illogical to suggest that the shitter the job, the more someone should be paid for it? Why do people who clear fatbergs from sewers get paid less than computer programmers in a nice warm office? Who creates more value to the rest of society?
you why that homeless man is so dirty, covered in scabs and sitting in the street in the rain
Massive sweeping generalisation but an honest question.
Do you think basic needs met would stop petty crime or homelessness ?
Do you think basic needs met would stop petty crime or homelessness ?
Nope.
Would it reduce the cases where petty crime and homelessness are driven by poverty?
Probably.
Do you think basic needs met would stop petty crime or homelessness ?
No but I think it's self-evident that it would massively reduce it. Been through one of our cities recently? I walk through Manchester Piccadilly gardens every day. It's descent in the past few years from a reasonably pleasant public space to a horrific human zoo of open drug taking, defecation and all round squalor is not coincidental with who has been in government in that time.
I (mostly) agree with dazh.
Why can't mankind, a civilization that has been around for this long, not come up with a system where EVERYONE has the basics for life provided and then work (whatever that work is) enough to get an amount of disposable income to spend on luxuries, but also not so much as to not have time to enjoy those luxuries? Where we all have somewhere safe to live with food/water to survive and then we all do the jobs that need doing to allow the luxury to happen??
Trail_Rat basic needs would CERTIANLY stop homelessness as somewhere to live is a basic need.
Do you think basic needs met would stop petty crime or homelessness ?
Reduce homelessness to 0.
Petty crime would go through the roof. Millions of people with no need to work but:
1) Disposable income of 0
2) ~60 extra free hours a week
3) No career so no need to avoid a criminal record
4) Higher truancy, because edcuation has little importance if you don't need to work
It could be designed to get people to start stealing.
Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking/fighting for our country etc etc that stops people functioning normally in a house enviroment (spoken as someone who spent a summer cleaning up and refurbing flats that were dss rented to these people who were trying to reform but would occasionally relapse....)
Faeces on the roof wasnt uncommon , burning the floor boards and selling the pipe work/boiler/rads for scrap were pretty normal ventures for them .
Basic needs doesnt cover these guys basic needs , houses and food are what we determine our basic needs to be but others have other basic needs
outofbreath - Member
Do you think basic needs met would stop petty crime or homelessness ?
Reduce homelessness to 0.Petty crime would go through the roof. Millions of people with no need to work but:
1) Disposable income of 0
2) ~60 extra free hours a week
3) No career so no need to avoid a criminal record
4) Higher truancy, because edcuation has little importance if you don't need to workIt could be designed to get people to start stealing.
there's that low opinion of people again.
Why can't mankind, a civilization that has been around for this long, not come up with a system where EVERYONE has the basics for life provided and then work (whatever that work is) enough to get an amount of disposable income to spend on luxuries, but also not so much as to not have time to enjoy those luxuries? Where we all have somewhere safe to live with food/water to survive and then we all do the jobs that need doing to allow the luxury to happen??
In some places it has worked. Back in the day there were Islands in the Pacific where food was plentiful and required almost no effort to gather plus the need for shelter could be rudimentary. With almost no work to be done they spent their entire lives doing whatever they felt like.
Compare that to the UK where gathering food and providing shelter is a permanant strgugle and (due to the seasonal nature of food growing here) requires organization.
Mind you one of the things the Pacific Islanders used to fill their spare time was warfare against each other.
There is no reason the state can't innovate (It has and can massively), not everything should be left to the market economy, which has been on its knees plenty of times needing state intervention. We don't call ourselves Socialists then.
The point is: is it better to have a market driven economy where profit is sent to other countries or worse other countries' state utilities or have it go back to your own? Because we already do the former.
It's time to figure out which stuff benefits the market economy and which should be swallowed by the state for the better of everyone.
And perhaps re-ordering society so that it is not directed solely towards the amassing of vast wealth by a tiny few.
Absolutely.
Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking/fighting for our country etc etc
No, but no-one has suggested it would, I don't think a universal payment would rid us of all mental health issues, but would it do so for those mental health issues that are caused by poverty? Certainly. wouldn't you think?
If then that frees up a budget of money to help those people who's mental health isn't caused by poverty, then that's a benefit as well, no?
outofbreath - Member
With almost no work to be done they spent their entire lives doing whatever they felt like.
Perish the thought that people aren't put to work to make profit for others.
because education has little importance if you don't need to work
I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.
It's not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it's peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, "the pursuit of knowledge" for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.
Petty crime would go through the roof. Millions of people with no need to work but:
It must be a uniquely cynical, suspicious and depressing thing being you.
Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking/fighting for our country etc etc that stops people functioning normally in a house enviroment
Of course not but these are fringe cases. The vast majority of homeless exist because they have been abandoned by the benefits system and don't have a support network of people to look after them. If you add UBI to my other favourite radical policy (legalisation of drugs and proper treatment of addiction) then the vast majority of cases of homelessness would disappear. The rest could be very quickly mopped up with targeted treatment and counselling.
I don't think a universal payment would rid us of all mental health issues, but would it do so for those mental health issues that are caused by poverty? Certainly. wouldn't you think?If then that frees up a budget of money to help those people who's mental health isn't caused by poverty, then that's a benefit as well, no?
It'd probably help with physical health too, again less pressure on the utopian health service. Poverty = higher incidence of disease is well researched area.
Sorry I must have missed it. Remind me again how spending a huge chunk of change on basic needs met frees up more money for mental health issues ?
And not everyone is homeless just because of mental health issues- some have addictions that mean everything is spent on feeding it
Not every mental/addiction illness is treatable either and Not everything is solved by giving money/equivalent services.
Fwiw I'm as I stated earlier I'm all for the concept I just don't believe it will create molgrips utopia
Really so giving someone a roof over their head would stop the mental issues caused by drug taking
[url= https://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html ]Article about the 'Rat Park' study.[/url] Food for thought.
When education, "the pursuit of knowledge" for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.
If you didn't have to work you wouldn't need a formal education. You could spend hours reading/learning/educating yourself about things that interest you.
So yeah, I wouldn't have learned about Calculus, but I would have read a vast amount more of (say) popular History.
So education for the sake of Education would flourish, because people could just skip all the stuff that didn't interest them and could devote huge amounts of time to the stuff that does. But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.
Peyote - Member
because education has little importance if you don't need to work
I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.It's not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it's peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, "the pursuit of knowledge" for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.
100%.
didn't interest them and could devote huge amounts of time to the stuff that does. But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.
not needless, just needing reformed and expanded.
I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.
Sorry I must have missed it. Remind me again how spending a huge chunk of change on basic needs met frees up more money for mental health issues ?
It's fairly simple, prevention is better than cure. It's an established fact that poor health is inextricably linked to poverty. If you reduce poverty, you improve health, and reduce the burden on health services, freeing up resources for other things. All it takes is an abandonment of the 'something for nothing' prejudices.
Not every mental/addiction illness is treatable either and Not everything is solved by giving money/equivalent services.
No one has suggested it would.
I'm all for the concept I just don't believe it will create molgrips utopia
Again, no one has suggested it would, UBI probably isn't the final response or answer to Capitalism, but then capitalism certainly isn't a Utopia either (apart from a teeny few at the very tippy-top). UBI is really just a step towards some equality...
because education has little importance if you don't need to work
I think this quote illustrates a lot of what is wrong.It's not just the system that needs reform/revolution, it's peoples perceptions and value standards. When education, "the pursuit of knowledge" for gods sake!, is viewed simply as a means to get work, then something is surely wrong.
+ a million, I learn to [i]learn[/i], not because I think it'll get me more £
[b]And not everyone [/b]is homeless just because...
[b]Not every[/b] mental/addiction illness..
[b]Not everything[/b] is solved
Nothing is perfect, you're never fix everything, but you can make things better without reaching perfection, and not being able to reach perfection in one step is not a reason not to try and take the steps in between.
A large proportion of mental health issues, addiction, crime etc. are a result of falling out of the bottom of the existing system.
The problems (cos there will always be [i]some[/i]) could be massively reduced if the bottom of the system was more supportive rather than a bottomless pit you can spiral into with just one slip...
I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.
Revolutionary, but not bad, surely? Wouldn't you prefer that?
With almost no work to be done they spent their entire lives doing whatever they felt like.
Perish the thought that people aren't put to work to make profit for others.
Sounds like a brilliant life to me, what's wrong with it? It's UBI. Everyone gets food and shelter dropped in their lap, but they have to manage without disposable cash. Genuinely idylic. What's the problem?
fair points amedias
the other point i have is that simply chosing to learn in the things that interest you is not a great thing either .
There are things that dont interest most people that are essential life skills imo.....
(For those that have not realised im bored waiting for a flight and playing devils advocate)
UBI is really just a step towards some equality...
Not even that I would say. It's a step towards basic humanity, which is currently sadly lacking. It's shocking and depressing that the simple idea of providing basic life needs is seen as such a divisive and radical policy.
outofbreath - Member
I find it staggering that people studying what they are interested in seems to be a revolutionary idea.
Revolutionary, but not bad, surely? Wouldn't you prefer that?
I don't understand your question?
I also don't know why you are still going on about no work, we disproved that theory of yours pages ago.
Wait, I forgot your intentions to become a master luthier, boat builder, fisherman, musician and cocktail stick carver! 😆
the other point i have is that simply chosing to learn in the things that interest you is not a great thing either .There are things that dont interest most people that are essential life skills imo.....
No reason there could not be a balance, a formal curriculum and the additional freedom beyond that. The beauty of being able to pursue your interests is that it often leads of other unexpected interests as well, and with the freedom to choose you're more invested in your learning rather than rebelling against a prescribed 'you must learn this' style approach.
Those essential life skills can be pretty easily delivered by a properly functioning society though, whether formally or through family etc.
There's an argument that perhaps our narrow minded pursuit of teaching only the skills that (on paper) might make you employable means we've neglected those other areas?
playing devils advocate
In case it's not obvious, I do actually approve of this. It's often a great way to explore not only other peoples views but also get a better understanding of your own.
t's a step towards basic humanity
yep, agree 100%
But yeah, formal schooling/university would be needless.
No.. this isn't going to be utopia. UBI won't be much of a life. But it'll keep a roof over your head and keep you and your family fed. And it will mean you can quit your shit job with manupulating boss, or leave your abusive partner, or get away from your controlling parents if you feel you need to. You would have somewhere to go.
And it'll alter the balance of power between employers and employees, and in many ways the rich and powerful will become less powerful I reckon.
But almost everyone will still work, cos life would be piss boring with nothing beyond basic food and shelter. We will still aspire to more, of course we will. Which is why we'll need education. That'll still be mandatory.
nickc - Member
But the question is, how do you make the life of someone doing a shit job (my expression) better?
By perhaps giving them a boost to their wages that is not based on welfare benefits as a punitive measure? (as they are currently), I dunno, maybe a universal payment given to everyone in society? And perhaps re-ordering society so that it is not directed solely towards the amassing of vast wealth by a tiny few. This is not beyond our imagination but it does mean a revolution. Along with revolutions in how we allocate resources, choose not pollute, and automate our production.
Agreed.
But I don't think giving people more benefits reaches the objective of "making their shit job better"- some have theorised it might introduce more mental health issues as it tells someone their labour isn't important and needs to be propped up by the state. Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you "the essentials to life" so that you don't starve and die.
Personally, I'd like to see redistribution of some wealth by sorting out the corporate tax system so big businesses pay their fair way - but this needs to happen globally/large scale so we don't end up with more havens or loopholes.
If only that topic got as much coverage and effort from Zuckerberg, Musk, Bezos etc as UBI. I wonder why they don't want to sort out that one hey?
No.. this isn't going to be utopia. UBI won't be much of a life.
It will for me. I have a wide range of interests that can be done on a shoestring I'm resourceful enough to manage on near-zero cash.
For me to buy an annuity that would fund housing and food for the rest of my life would cost a 6 figure sum. UBI covering life's basics would literally make me a millionaire, allbeit I could never realize the cash as a lump sum.
For me that's utopia.
But I don't think giving people more benefits reaches the objective of "making their shit job better"-
Again, UBI isn't a Utopian dream state, it's about treating people with a bit of equality and humanity.
Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you "the essentials to life" so that you don't starve and die.
If a UBI is to ever be realised, it's going to require a seismic shift in attitudes and psychology across the whole of society. This is probably the main obstacle to it being implemented. As well as changing the 'something for nothing' prejudice most people have, it's also going to require changing the insecurities many people at the bottom have about feeling worthless. This is going to be a very difficult and long term project.
Imagine being told your labour is so worthless
I don't think the people that clean up after I've left the office are worthless, and I'd imagine they don't think that either. That you can suggest it, probably says more about your attitudes to the low paid TBH.
EDIT, Like every hill I've ridden with him, beaten to it by Dazh 😆
Imagine being told your labour is so worthless that the state needs to give you "the essentials to life" so that you don't starve and die.
What do you think working tax credit is for?
I'm resourceful enough to manage on near-zero cash.
Ok but you don't get near zero cash, you get actual zero cash (in some ideas.. not with others of course).
Another thought:
If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you'd bet they'd invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.
Driverless tube trains, too, molgrips.
Ok but you don't get near zero cash, you get actual zero cash
As it happens I reckon I could manage on zero cash, but yeah, as and when I need it I'd do the odd week here and there. Just as some retired people do now. BUt that assumes the tax system made working even short hours a sane option. I think it's more likely I'd be doing return favors for people on a barter basis.
If McDonalds burgers still needed flipping, but no-one was prepared to flip them, you'd bet they'd invest a lot of money in an automatic restaurant rather than close down.
Would you need fast food if you didn't have to go to work? I go to McDonalds because it's fast. If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I'd be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work. So yeah, McDonalds wouldn't be able to source as many staff, but they wouldn't need to because they wouldn have as many customers.
If I have an extra 60 hours a week spare I'd be cooking quality stuff at home, not snatching five minutes to scoff a Sausage MacMuffin on my way to work.
I think we've established you're not typical 🙂
beaten to it by Dazh
'Working' from home today. That's my only excuse 🙂