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outofbreath - Member
Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.
Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.
you going to build you own boat too? make you own creel?
outofbreath - MemberSail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.
You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail?
If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?
outofbreath - Member
where you getting the musicians and instruments?
We'd do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we'd get pretty good.
Good stuff, glad you've got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people, perhaps to the people making your boat and your keel.
My god, the capitalist system still works after all, who'd have thunk it. Perhaps it's resilient after all.
If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?
With all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?
Failing that there's always a dugout canoe 🙂
Exactly, my point is people will still have to exchange services (work) for something (money) - and if there is still a system whereby people can earn money all that happens is inequality rises.
I can see a post-currency society working, but then again we need to be at such a high level of technology that any job that a person doesn't want to do is automated. Automating a coffee shop is one thing, automating the entire construction chain of an underground sewer expansion is something else entirely.
Malvern Rider - MemberWith all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?
Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.
Remember we are keeping capitalism.
No-one is arguing for economic equality..
The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.
But then again, if essentials are catered for, some things would have to be lowered in price to catch customers who have decided to work fewer hours for less cash. And they could be, because the suppliers costs would have come down.
Hmm.
I could handle inflation for non essential items, it would settle at a certain level, sure the market would dictate the correct level.
Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend.
Yay capitalism! If it works properly then it could take a lifetime to pay for that retirement dinghy mortgage 😉
Well no - because as per my previous post - everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.
Well, no again.
If you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.
so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.
The problem would be the massive incentivization of cash in hand work. Currently, you might save VAT and the income tax on what you can spend as cash and the tax free allowance means low earners benefit nothing from cash in hand work. Higher tax and no allowance make that much harder.
With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more
You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail? If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?
Yes. I can run a boat at zero cost indefinately, or at least for a very long time. But even if I couldn't I'd just have to give up eating Lobster. I've managed without lobster for my entire life to date, so I'd cope. If the only flaw you can think of is that I'd be able to start eating lobster but then have to stop when something that I couldn't repair on my boat got broken you're really not thinking hard enough!
The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.
That is a problem. But the real problem is giving everyone the means to completely stop paying tax or pay far less tax whilst also using tax to give everyone a house and food is flawed.
Good stuff, glad you've got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people,
Nope. I wouldn't work for cash - not least because nobody would have any becasue we wouldn't be working. There would be a bit of light bartering going on but not much else.
In a post work UK we would be like retired people are now. We'd have less money but more time to help each other out with reciprocal favors. We might do the odd bit of easy work as required.
I don't see a problem with doing work as required, sounds great to me. Sounds much better to me than a system where probably more than half the people in it work just to keep the system going.
Your arguments are ridiculous.
With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more
This.
On average we all have to pay for our own house, food and internet. If on average we all continue to pay for our own house, food and internet but the state provide it then we're just adding a needless layer of indirection. If on average we aren't then where's it coming from?
thisisnotaspoon - MemberIf you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.
so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.
Forgive me if i'm not quite grasping this but that just sounds like our existing benefit system, just with extra steps, and with the poor getting poorer. (Less cash after benefits)
And that also requires people to work to raise that tax - isn't the whole point of UBI that people [b]don't[/b] have to work?
The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.
Trad economics suggests that only if there's new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around. If it's just "activity" (people will still spend the money in shops, and it'll be recirculated) then inflation isn't going to be a problem...However that argument doesn't seem to apply nowadays. Essentially this IS what the B.O.E has been doing for the banks (giving them free money) for the last decade or so, inflation isn't an issue currently...
Trad economics suggests that only if there's new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around.
That's my take. Giving everyone a massive incentive to make do with massively reduced cash spending is about as anti-inflationary as you can get.
People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they'd have more time to repair stuff where before they'd buy new.
People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they'd have more time to repair stuff where before they'd buy new.
I see that as a positive to this for the earth rather than wastefully making rich people richer.....
Interesting debate, and some interesting opinions.
Nice to read there are considerate nice people out there (molgrips) ... disappointing to read there are bitter horrible people out there (weeksy)
no.isn't the whole point of UBI that people don't have to work?
If people are just going to give up earning extra. Why do rich people keep earning? Are they a different breed from the rest of or something?
Why don't I cut back to 3 days a week. I could easily survive...
Not sure if inflation would occur, especially if people start quitting jobs.
UBI is happening in Finland I think. Actually iirc its jobseekers allowance no questions asked.
Wrong.
Firstly taxing the better off is immoral. Its unfair. Tax should be the same. If you are clever enough to earn more then you should be applauded not punished. Fair is treating all the same not according to some arbitrary need.
Secondly handouts should be valued. I would applaud any system that insists that any government hand out must be balanced by a contribution to the state. So no job equal a payment which in it turn must equal some form of service. Street cleaning, etc. Something with few skills so all can do.
Thirdly more money handed out means more exploitation. If the system had some control then maybe. I resent benefits being used to buy luxuries when I'm working for mine and so often others suffer. Eg Mum smoking and kids poorly clad. Why not, as must be possible in this day and age have benefits purely card based which can only be spent on the essentials? Of course this can be bypassed but it would help.
Oh yeah. Here we have the usual examples of those preaching love and cuddles to all being nasty to any who dare to oppose their views. Very nice!
mattsccm - Member
Wrong.
Firstly taxing the better off is immoral.
The IMF seems to disagree.
mattsccm - Member
Oh yeah. Here we have the usual examples of those preaching love and cuddles to all being nasty to any who dare to oppose their views. Very nice!
It's funny how it's all the people that think they are doing well out the system that are vehemently opposed to change.
Just out of interest it seems that a lot of folks on here don't like working and/or their jobs?
As i have enjoyed virtually all my jobs and have worked happily for myself since 1998 I am surprised by the amount of people not happy, god knows there are loads of jobs I would likley hate.
My job is alright as jobs go, easy enough, and I get plenty of time to myself to do what I like essentially.
This isn't particularly an argument about liking your job or not. More about what people should be allowed to profit from.
Jobs fine, but I can think of plenty other things I could do if I didn't need to work. Which is what I'l be doing soon enough on a 'basic lifestyle' income for the rest of my life as that's what I chose over working longer for some extra frills.
People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they'd have more time to repair stuff where before they'd buy new.
I see that as a positive to this for the earth rather than wastefully making rich people richer.....
100pc positive, and the exact opposite of inflationary which is the point I was making.
If people are just going to give up earning extra. Why do rich people keep earning?
I'm sure some people would keep working, but having accommodation+food costs funded combined with the people who make the choice to work being made to pay (essentially) a pension to everyone else is going to lead to vastly less hours worked.
Incidentally, if you want to form little mutual scheme between us I'd willingly accept a monthly payment from you for my food and housing costs.
UBI is happening in Finland I think. Actually iirc its jobseekers allowance no questions asked.
Nothing wrong with UBI at JSA levels, there are loads of advantages. The problem comes when you set it at a point where people can make themselves a life on it alone.
Treat them mean keep them keen... Like an abusive partner, an apt analogy.
Just out of interest it seems that a lot of folks on here [s]don't like working and/or their jobs[/s]prefer the vast array of challenge, fulfillment and enjoyment that life can offer to their jobs?
Gave that a little tweak for you!
Treat them mean keep them keen...
So all these years you haven't been paying for my house and food was to keep me contributing to the UK economy? How mean of you.
You do understand how the proper and rental markets work, aye? They are absolutely all about standing on the shoulders of others.
Firstly taxing the better off is immoral.
What utter nonsense. Wealth redistribution is in everyone's long term interest and quite moral.
Wealth inequality is one of the biggest problems with modern society and needs addressing.
Wealth redistribution is in everyone's long term interest and quite moral.
What utter nonsense. Sounds like communism to me.
The moral grounds for equality of outcome are remarkably shaky. In fact, arguably they do not exist at all
Flawed concept leading to flawed results - our modern society
How can wealth inequality be good for any society? oppression is the ultimate consequence. The hour glass economy is pushing more to bottom than the top - so those doing well today, can only hope their children do as well tomorrow.
Problem is that a lot are ignorant to see the race to the bottom by the great unwashed - whilst those at the top skim the cream.
The moral grounds for equality of outcome are remarkably shaky. In fact, arguably they do not exist at allFlawed concept leading to flawed results - our modern society
What does this mean?
Equality of outcome? We're striving for everyone to have equal assets/means? Since when?
It's an interesting concept if you are able to see past all of us being in one form of servitude or another, lazy bastards for the short drop. Those more able, the favoured slaves/slaves with privileges.
How you make it work in the real world I really don't know. Can only see any changes being implemented by necessity, with all the age old human problems of repression and suffering, which bizarrely some seem to revel in!
One things for sure as the numbers required in the modern work place dwindle, with nowhere near enough alternatives and the alternatives becoming cheaper due to increased competition. Things will get ugly for an ever increasing group of people with an ever decreasing group of winners. There are existing towns and regions of this country that never recovered from mass unemployment, it becoming increasingly widespread is not going to be a good thing.
It's going to take a bold solution. I'm not sure what it is and doubt it will be handled in an intelligent and/or humane manner 😐
Ultimately - who will fair better?
Survival of the fittest favours those who have adapted longest. Long term ****less - or the recently previous privileged?
Finland's UBI funded by thin air
[url= http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/finland ]Finland National Debt[/url]
I admit I only read the first page, but what are you guys intending to eat when the universal living wage comes in? You do know all the farmers have jacked it in to go and paint squirrels right?