[Closed] UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet

the (state owned) machines will pay your tax for you.

hisisnotaspoon - Member

Internet though? That's not an essential.

I disagree, access to knowledge should be universal.

Coyote - Member
So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

general taxation.

If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.

I'm all for embracing automation, but it should be done to everyones benefit, not to a few.

You are aware of how the current world works? 🙂

Automation will start having a significant impact with 15 years, you read it here first!

It would be nice to think it would usher in a new egalitarian utopia but I'm not holding my breath

If more people get put out of a job due to automation or whatever, and the profits go to a few offshore tax havens, then the current system doesn't work either.

Automation will start having a significant impact with 15 years, you read it here first!

nah. tomorrows world told me that 30 yrs ago.

seosamh77 - Member

Not having to work for things that are considered essentials for life. if you want the bells and whistles you can still go out to work. No-one would be stopping you. It's about say right, here's what a human need to have a basic standard of living (what those things are are up for debate), lets make those a basic human needs become a human right, ie you don't need to sell you self just to exist.

If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.

The capitalist system would still be in place. just some things would be exempt from that system.

Right, but all that happens is companies raise the prices to what the market will tolerate. Rolex have been the masters at doing this for years - they know exactly what their target market will pay for their brand, and as the upper-middle class has gotten richer, their watches have risen in relative price. (Despite Rolex introducing more automated manufacturing in their watches, with the costs per-watch getting "cheaper" as a result)

The same will happen in your scenario. If someone works for a month and get's £1000 of which they can spend fully on exactly what they want, suddenly a pair of nice shoes costs £1000. It's only a months work right? How badly do you want those shoes?

Santa Cruz would still go the high end market, so suddenly a Santa Cruz bike costs £200k because thats what the high end target market can afford now their living costs are £0.

So you've ended up working the same amount of time to save up for the same thing.

And don't even begin to think that companies wont raise their prices to meet what the market can afford - because that's one of the core concepts of capitalism.

So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?

The magic socialist money tree.

richmtb - Member
I'm all for embracing automation, but it should be done to everyones benefit, not to a few.
You are aware of how the current world works?

All too aware, but it isn't set in stone and when a change happens it'll happen quicker than people think. whether that's for go or bad will depend on how it's planned for.

[quote=oldtalent ]
The magic socialist money tree.

is that planted next to the magic DUP money tree?

oldtalent - Member
So. Where is this £500 per month coming from?
The magic socialist money tree.

Tory sound bytes, of course how silly, definitely the answer.

access to knowledge should be universal.

Quite.

However, wouldn't this mean restrictions to only permit users to access 'suitable' resources?

If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.

Well yes, if you want those things you have to work but for very short periods of time. I still think most of us would find we could manage without the latest bike in exchange for a lie in every morning and precious time spent with the kids.

...and if you don't need a job you don't need education. So even more savings. No student loans, more time with family. Everyone wins.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
access to knowledge should be universal.
Quite.

However, wouldn't this mean restrictions to only permit users to access 'suitable' resources?

steady on kim jong.. 😆

outofbreath - Member
If you want the latest tech, bike, to spent every night down the pub, you go out and work for it.
Well yes, if you want those things you have to work but for very short periods of time. I still think most of us would find we could manage without the latest bike in exchange for a lie in every morning and precious time spent with the kids.

...and if you don't need a job you don't need education. So even more savings. No student loans, more time with family. Everyone wins.

you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?

Santa Cruz might would still go the high end market, so suddenly a Santa Cruz bike costs £20k because thats what the high end target market can afford now their living costs are £0.

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs to design, manuufacture and distribute have gone through the roof in order to tempt the workers who tend the robots who make the bikes off their arses into the factory. ... and so the cycle ( pun intended) continues.

If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.

You're just getting hung up on the detail.

I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

1.45 million people are unemployed in the UK at the moment...

that's those that are allowed on the books. I suspect the real number is somewhat higher. Definition of unemployed for this purpose is someone of contributing (to society) age without a job/ worthwhile activity that benefits the community.

Who doesn't deserve a roof over their head and food on the table?

It's a tough one.

Sick/disabled?

Witches?

Homeless people?

Refugees?

Children of immigrants?

Grandchildren of immigrants?

****less ginger yoovs on mopeds?

you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?

High opinion, you mean. Or or you saying spending time with my family is a lesser choice than working when I have no need to?

outofbreath - Member
If more people take than contribute then this doesn't work.
You're just getting hung up on the detail.

I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

[quote=outofbreath ]
You're just getting hung up on the detail.
I'm taking the helicopter view. No more work. No more tax. Just happy days spent living the good life.

fancy a job as a brexit negotiator?

outofbreath - Member
you've got quite a low opinion of people, eh?
High opinion, you mean. Or or you saying spending time with my family is a lesser choice than working when I have no need to?

You just going to sit round the table with your family singing songs?

fancy a job as a brexit negotiator?

😀

You just going to sit round the table with your family singing songs?

If I didn't have to work? Yes, I would deffo spend a lot of evenings doing that. I suspect my whole neighbourhood would too. If we didn't have to work I'd be betting on a lot of social gatherings. Why not?

Well because your beloved capitalist system would still exist(albeit somewhat restricted from profiting on human essentials). Want would not disappear.

outofbreath - Member

If we didn't have to work I'd be betting on a lot of social gatherings. Why not?

Because your Universal Needs TM vouchers don't cover "social gatherings" as cheese and pineapple sticks and mini sausages are seen as luxuries, so therefore you need to go to work to afford them, and then why would you want to share your hard earned breadsticks with the lazy fekkers next door who do nothing all day?

(albeit somewhat restricted from profiting on human essentials).

Who is going to build and maintain this massive Social Housing stock?

I can assure you that I would be very much profiting from this.

FWIW i'm into the idea I just don't see how it could ever work unless we are at a Star Trek level of technology, but lets not forget thats a work of fiction.

anyhow, what's the point youse are making, that capitalism can only exist when it exploits basic human essentials? Here was me thinking the market was more robust than that....

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs

At that price it's worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down.....

At that price it's worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down.....

Which robots? Those robots that I already mentioned? 😉

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs to design, manuufacture and distribute have gone through the roof in order to tempt the workers who tend the [b]robots who make the bikes[/b] off their arses into the factory

Because your Universal Needs TM vouchers don't cover "social gatherings"

Social gatherings are free. Cultures that have nothing material at all gather round for a good old sing song.

cheese and pineapple sticks and mini sausages are seen as luxuries

Personally, I see them as food, but they aren't requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

TBH I think housing should be provided, there should be far more council housing with affordable rents which could be set nationally (so the market would decide we need more in the SE than the Middlesbrough for example). Combine that with a minimum wage (which is also set nationally) that actually works to provide a decent living for families (£10-£12?) which could be afforded by tax breaks for companies paying it (Amazon would still pay zero tax, but it's profits would stay in the UK economy via the wages).

With those two things, it should be possible to do any job anywhere in the country and not end up in poverty.

Transport I don't agree with, too open to abuse and impossible to make universal. I couldn't get a bus/train to where I now work, and making if I wasn't paying petrol I'd have no incentive to look for something more local (or save the polar bears).

I disagree, access to knowledge should be universal.

A good reason to get rid of the internet!

outofbreath - Member

Personally, I see them as food.

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the "Basics required for life" I don't think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

Would be a shame if this diverted attention away from the more interesting idea of a universal basic income replacing the current benefits system. But that won't happen either...

Agree, a universal basic income is a much better idea.

outofbreath - Member

but they aren't requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?

Isn't that what bored teenagers do?

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the "Basics required for life" I don't think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

1) I love cottage pie.
2) If I don't have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

You're really not putting me off this plan. The more I think about it the more excellent free stuff I can think of to do.

outofbreath - Member

2) If I don't have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital. You know they don't just chill out in the Thames, right?

I'm not trying to put you off the plan - I love the concept - I just don't think anyone really has a clue how to make it work and the current ideas look and sound a bit micky mouse.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?

I'm thinking Ceilidh.

You just don't need cash to have a great time.

What's stopping you doing that just now?

outofbreath - Member
So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing...... nothing?
I'm thinking Ceilidh.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

Go on then, I'd love to hear how you're going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.

Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

That was my next move, seosamh77

Why would you not just do that now?

Oh right, because it's boring AF.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

We'd do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we'd get pretty good.