By taking a hard stance on immigrants, you're answering that RW press argument.
No you're not, as they'll never be happy. No amount of cruelty will be enough, there will always be some 'left behind' person/family/street/town that can be used for "shouldn't we look after our own first". The press aren't working in the real world so doing some real world cruelty to appease them just shows that them making stuff up works, which encourages them to do more.
You're not answering the argument, you're chasing a right wing fantasy of making anyone with the wrong skin tone or a foreign accent disappear. And if that was achieved then the next step would be to do the same to 'lefties who hate Britain', or LGBT people, or cyclists, or single parents, or the unemployed or whoever else becomes the next target.
This is why I took issue with the 'but you have to vote Labour because they're not the Tories' stuff pre-GE. Lots of people aren't the Tories, but if Labour are going to carry on with the Tory style performative cruelty then what makes them any better? And the people who want the cruelty will never believe that Labour are really doing it so they're probably not really winning any votes from it.
Does anyone think some Facebook-radicalised retiree blathering on about '2-tier Keir' is going to suddenly vote Labour because they published the race crime league table?
none of which have anything to do with your Westminster MP. Labour or othrwise
Oh come on, all the things Ransos mentions are a direct result of national policy set in Westminster. Local authorities are hamstrung by massive underfunding from central govt due to 'balancing the books', and the continued failure of central govt to reform the social care system which is devouring what little funds local authorities have. There is no money to fix local facilities and infrastructure because all the money is being funnelled into the accounts of private care providers. Labour could fix all that if they wanted, but they don't because 'there is no money'.
Fully agree with dazh, central government absolutely has plenty to do with the state of local government services. They were the main targets of the austerity cuts.
If voters are not given a choice of different policies, they will just back the version which is shouting the loudest. Hopefully this will finally wake up Labour strategists - being Reform-lite on immigration wins you no votes whatsoever, as people who respond to that prefer the full-fat version.
the continued failure of central govt to reform the social care system which is devouring what little funds local authorities have
The big nettle that needs grasping.
none of which have anything to do with your Westminster MP. Labour or othrwise
Not directly but it's an outcome of austerity and Westminster policies - which is a shame because these are the easy wins. If you can fix a few dozen potholes, keep the place clean and give a regular bin collection, you buy yourself a lot of time and goodwill to then ponce around with the less popular stuff.
A surprisingly large number of people don't really mind so much that THEIR life hasn't got any better just so long as someone else is seen to be getting it worse. Which is why immigrants, the poor, the disabled (and cyclists!) are such easy targets.
Yup, as I said, spiteful. And whilst these people do tend to vote populist they can also be attracted to the other parties if they make the right (wrong to me) noises. The spiteful thick vote is increasing sought after, depressing.
It seems to be a world-wide phenomenon. I find Germany particularly revealing. The country was divided in two for a few decades and since reunification the voting habits of the two halves have been fascinating to watch. In the communist dictatorship DDR the propaganda and education system resulted in a mind set remarkably similar to the Nazis and even a generation or so on the AfD finds fertile ground.
The UK has its own issues. There are things deep rooted in society and the education system that come out at elections. For example:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/feb/29/schools.uk4
The study, published today, found that nearly half of UK secondary school pupils (46%) think that bullying is a problem in their school and is caused by students' language difficulties, skin colour, race and religion.
In case you can't be bothered to read all of it.
Labour can win their voters back quite easily by reversing austerity with radical progressive (dare I say - leftwing) policies which rebuild public services and infrastructure and address the inequality issue by taxing the rich more and lowering the tax burden on working people. We all know they won't do that though, they'll continue with tory-light austerity and chase the tories towards Farage's battlements in a pointless suicide mission.
The issue I think when anyone actually tries to tax the rich, is the rich people who own the papers etc double down to say how it effects the man in the street so to speak.
Tax the wealthy and they'll all leave is the usual argument.
Seems like reform are doing well in the council voting results, I feel it highlights just how different our two nations are - time to start digging the trench at the border. 😉
Looks like Reform had a great election in Derbyshire now results are coming in.
Nationally the Tories are really struggling, looks like Reform are going to effectively be the opposition out in the real world, though lower turnouts and protest votes distort the results a bit.
Vox pops on the BBC News have been interesting - need change, let down by the main two parties, but also people pointing out that Reform had no real policies, and one woman who worked in the care sector standing up for her immigrant colleagues very eloquently.
To con oneself that the average voter distinguishes between who does what with respect to refuse collection, dentists, GPs etc is ridiculous. A sizeable minority (perhaps even the majority) of voters who actually vote do so from a few headlines, a few interviews, what they've always done and 'a feeling'.
The subset within that that even realises locals are different from GE is miniscule. These locals, with a couple of percentage points here and there are a referendum on the first 10 months of a supposedly Labour government. And they show that Labour have failed to win over enough people now that the Tories have gone.
As has been pointed out a few times above, now needs to be a wake up call to Starmer to show clear daylight between his party and Farage's, not try to emulate them. But the track record of the first ten months suggests it'll be some more performative anti-immigration rhetoric that will chosen.
I would think a few mosques in Staffordshire might well be beefing up their security over the next few days as that result could well prompt an emboldened bigot to 'have a go'.
Tax the wealthy and they'll all leave is the usual argument.
Then the answer is let them go.
The government is not dependent on them for funding in reality. Every other argument just means you are stuck. The power the wealthy lead is despicable and only maintained by misrepresenting them as the source of money.
(You can also call them out for not being patriots etc. )
Tice's arguments are shite. On the radio talking about councils going bankrupt and savings are needed. Anyone with a bit of knowledge about our finance system would slaughter him about the removal of grants to local authorities over the last few years.
We know cuts done work.
He doesn't understand that government 'borrowing' provides a save space for the wealthy to put their damn money.
Looks like Reform had a great election in Derbyshire now results are coming in.
Yep, thoroughly depressing. At least my ward got a Labour Cllr, one down the road got an Independent and there are a couple of Greens knocking around to provide some sort of balance but Reform have got a sizeable majority so far.
none of which have anything to do with your Westminster MP. Labour or othrwise
If you believe that to be true then you have a startling lack of knowledge about local government funding.
Just got the results.
Every single one of our Bassetlaw Councillors is now Reform by a big margin.
FFS.
Well done you daft pricks Labour.
(Oh well at least people will see they won't deliver.)
Starmer's saying he's going to Turbo charge change. Why didn't you do that from the start you dumb-ass?
Just got the results.
Every single one of our Bassetlaw Councillors is now Reform by a big margin.
FFS.
Well done you daft pricks Labour.
(Oh well at least people will see they won't deliver.)
Starmer's saying he's going to Turbo charge change. Why didn't you do that from the start you dumb-ass?
Starmer's saying he's going to Turbo charge change.
What he actually means is "I will go full right wing, there'll be gunboats in the Channel by next week and the disabled will get one extra beating per week, paid for by a tax hike on students and those on minimum wage."
It does look like the Tories are done - just frustrating that the Greens don't have a Farage type cult hero.
The Green Party probably has a bit of a branding/image problem and are seen too much as a single issue party which is never going to help in this world of f net zero. They are not even proposing to kill any immigrants, what is wrong with them.
I genuinely keep forgetting there are now 4 Green MPs, including both of the party leaders. It's the media in general, not just the press. In fact I'd say TV and Radio news and current affairs are probably even worse at over amplifying Farage than the newspapers.
Starmer's saying he's going to Turbo charge change.
Unfortunately more austerity, being mean to the disabled and stopping the boats isn't change.
@kelvin You'd be hard-pressed to know from the media that there were 72 LD MPs, never mind 4 Greens.
Asked by the BBC if he rules out backing a coalition with Reform, he says: "Yep. Kemi has been clear, no pacts, no coalitions. I have been clear. I want to put Reform out of business, I want to send Farage back to retirement.
Not often my aims align with Honest Bob.
Will be interesting to see how Reform go at being councillors and more importantly running councils. It's a pretty hard and not very well paid job.
The biggest chunk of council spending is on child and adult social services - councils are barely keeping the wheels on with these services given years of cuts.
My worry is that Reform will divert money from care services to politically popular stuff on bins and potholes - where councils have been forced to make difficult decisions
The other issue is whether the individual councillors are up to it - as I said it's hard and thankless. Labour, Tory and LD have established party structures and membership to run selection and you still get the odd shocker. I worry that Reform will have just selected any rando with a membership card and was prepared to volunteer without any consideration of the responsibilities
Not often my aims align with Honest Bob.
They don't. He's lying. He does that.
My worry is that Reform will divert money from care services to politically popular stuff on bins and potholes - where councils have been forced to make difficult decisions
I'm not sure they can - social care and emergency housing is statutory spending.
The problem we have is that due to the increased cost of this and a decrease in funding due to council tax freezes and (more significantly) austerity-driven cuts to the central government grant, there isn't a whole lot left over for 'discretionary' spending, a lot of which delivers what people consider to be 'government' services eg. potholes/libraries/bins etc.
Sorting out LG finance would make a massive difference to people feeling the country works but Treasury Brain meaning that there's an intrinsic Treasury distrust that LG will spend any money 'properly' and more austerity means that nothing has really changed.
(In other news, as the live results tracker is showing, Reform have the most councillors this round, LDs second and the Greens two behind Lab - these are largely conservative seats that are up but still, not a good night for either Lab or the Tories)
I'm not sure they can - social care and emergency housing is statutory spending
They are statutory services (as are roads, refuse etc) with ring fenced funding but good councils deliver and spend more than the minimum required and run more efficient and better quality care services generally - these are political decisions and why councillors are elected not appointed. But I'm not sure that people think about this stuff when voting
The Green Party probably has a bit of a branding/image problem
Whenever I see Carla Denyer on TV, she just doesn't come across as very competent - I honestly think she's a hindrance to the Greens - I can't be the only one that thinks this
Reform do have Derbyshire then - Labour lost 11 seats, Tories lost 33. Our own (excellent and experienced) local Tory councillor kept her seat, despite my best efforts.
Right you Reform ****s, let's see what you actually deliver.
Will be interesting to see how Reform go at being councillors and more importantly running councils
I think we know the answer to that one. Badly.
But will more than likely try to blame someone else- labour, conservative or their choice of target - asylum seekers.
The Green Party probably has a bit of a branding/image problem and are seen too much as a single issue party
If the Greens were actually half way bothered about climate change, they'd have joined up with Labour years ago. That they haven't tells everyone how serious they are.
The Green Party probably has a bit of a branding/image problem and are seen too much as a single issue party
If the Greens were actually half way bothered about climate change, they'd have joined up with Labour years ago. That they haven't tells everyone how serious they are.
Why would they?
What are Labour going to do about it that is half-way serious? They've done nothing but edge back on promises.
How's that even compatible.
Labour have treated the left with contempt.
This is an absolute massacre for the Tories and the only reason it's less damaging (in terms of councillors lost) for labour is that it's a follow year for city elections.
Starmer and the Parliamentary labour party basically have a year to prevent a blood bath
**** me, this feels like waking up to Brexit all over again.
I didn't imagine this happening but it seems NE Derbyshire is now the worst shade of blue.
Reform do have Derbyshire then - Labour lost 11 seats, Tories lost 33. Our own (excellent and experienced) local Tory councillor kept her seat, despite my best efforts.
I see Barry Lewis has lost his seat! He can concentrate on making wine now! 😀
https://democracy.derbyshire.gov.uk/mgElectionAreaResults.aspx?XXR=0&ID=178&RPID=11234162
Seems like reform are doing well in the council voting results, I feel it highlights just how different our two nations are - time to start digging the trench at the border.
You dont think it’ll happen in Scotland when the next elections come round then? I think you are going to be surprised, as I hear from many people that they will be voting for them. SNP are useless after being in power for so long, Labour are as bad with the taint of the current UK Government on them, and few will think of voting Tory, so Reform are the alternative.
You dont think it’ll happen in Scotland when the next elections come round then? I
Perhaps they’ll get a vote in a few areas in Ayrshire but I doubt they’ll get much support up here, if I’m still around for the next election, still have use of my arms then you’ll see me on the news for ****ting any reform candidates who appear at my door here in Galloway, Not joking either.
I don’t know of anyone who’d consider voting for them, but then again I only see my mum, bro, best mate from week to week so perhaps I’m just out of touch
Whenever I see Carla Denyer on TV, she just doesn't come across as very competent - I honestly think she's a hindrance to the Greens - I can't be the only one that thinks this
I take your Carla Denyer and raise you Jenny Jones. Why she hasn't been booted out of the party is a mystery to Green Party members I know.
Tax the wealthy and they'll all leave is the usual argument
I've always been curious about this argument. If they're not paying their fare share of taxes, what use are they? Why do we need them to stay? The vast majority of jobs we all work are for companies and corporations. How many of us actually work for a rich individual who would leave and take their company with them if they were taxed more?
Looking at the results around where I live, it's the poorer areas that are voting Reform. This is not really a surprise given that those people are ones that feel most failed by politicians of all stripes. It's the Populist playbook of course. Unfortunately, they haven't won enough to take power and so be revealed as the useless idiots they are when the need to actually take responsibility for something rather than just shouting from the sidelines.
Tax the wealthy and they'll all leave is the usual argument
I've always been curious about this argument. If they're not paying their fare share of taxes, what use are they? Why do we need them to stay? The vast majority of jobs we all work are for companies and corporations. How many of us actually work for a rich individual who would leave and take their company with them if they were taxed more?
Especially true of companies like alphabet, meta and Amazon..
We could tax them a lot and they would still be able to make good profit.. They aren't just going to leave a market over what would only amount to a slightly reduced profit margin when they are making zillions from it.
Oh shit Kent. We are ****ed.
Oh shit Kent. We are ****ed.
Be interesting to see how this plays out in the newer Mayoral Combined Authorities.
East Midlands for example (Nottingham and Derby cities, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) now has:
a Labour Mayor
strongly Labour Nottingham City Council
Labour minority Derby City Council
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire now both Reform (previously Conservative)
Greater Lincolnshire has just become a Mayoral Combined Authority with a Reform Mayor and the three Constituent Authorities (which is made up of the Lincolnshire County Council and the two unitary authorities of North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire) all being Conservative.
Looks like Donny Council have gone light blue, though Labour held on (just) to the Mayoral seat. That could be an interesting dynamic.
LibDem doing quite well too overall.
**** me, this feels like waking up to Brexit all over again.
I didn't imagine this happening but it seems NE Derbyshire is now the worst shade of blue.
Very Brexit-esque.
Not that surprised though - lots of Reform posters around in both rural and urban areas.
As has been noted, there's going to be a hell of a lot of new councillors who have never done this job before. I work in planning consultancy - its going to be interesting to see how this new intake deal with it all, we could be in for some interesting decisions from councils. I suspect there will be a lot of ignoring their planning officers professional advice.
I suspect there will be a lot of ignoring their planning officers professional advice.
The advice will probably be dismissed as woke...
The ever-excellent John Crace sums it up well here:
I'm not sure why anyone is suprised or upset about this.. if these figures are correct, the tories lost huge to reform.
Not a great day for Labour but a very good day for the Lib-dems and greens, who don't even exist according to the UK press;
Councillors (gains/losses):
Reform: +584
Conservative: -580
Labour: -161
Independent: -24
Lib Dem: +141
Green: +42
It's quite daunting to see a party so aligned with the orange idiot across the water doing so good.
Unfortunately when you vote in UK politics it's a case of the best of a very very bad bunch.
It's quite daunting to see a party so aligned with the orange idiot across the water doing so good.
Unfortunately when you vote in UK politics it's a case of the best of a very very bad bunch.
It's just the extreme far-right electorate are shifting allegiance from tory to reform, nothing more:
Reform: +584
Conservative: -580
They are just trading places for the extremist voters. Reform are simply better at being nasty than the conservatives are, at the moment.
