UK Government Thread

Posted by: Oakwood

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my vote was only 'on loan', and if Starmer doesn't get off the fence soon, my vote will go back to either the greens or lib-dems, next opportunity

ah , the purity test . The curse of the left. 

Should they "stand up to" Trump? Wouldn't that be lovely. It's people in manufacturing in the UK they'd be putting at risk

Not standing up to trump guarantees UK jobs are at risk, that's the whole point, Trump is trying to force the rest of the world to give up jobs and move manufacturing to the US, any "deal" done with him  will sacrifice UK jobs. The less risk is the ROTW standing up to him to accelerate the US themselves giving him the boot. But the rest of the world needs to stand together, individual capitulation weakens everybody.

Failing to stand up to fascist bully's isn't pragmatism, it isn't protecting jobs, democracy and the economy, it is allowing the facist bully to win, and it is cowardice.

ah , the purity test . The curse of the left. 

Ah preach capitulation to the fascists and attack the left, the MO of the centrists.

And if anyone wants a realistic path back to the eu...

Carney is advocating for a Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand free trade and mobility zone in the Canadian election. Starmer should go full bore for that.

Then in a few years, negotiate a customs union between the EU and the new free trade zone.

Then a few years after that look at merging the 2 into an expanded single free trade and mobility zone.

That would be a far better tactic than kowtowing to the US.

But the rest of the world needs to stand together, individual capitulation weakens everybody.

I agree with you on that.

Starmer has a huge issue here.  A US trade deal requires us to accpt US beef and chicken.  If he does so the deal with the EU on food standards becomes impossible. 

He is going to have to choose one out of two

They'll be no wide ranging UKUSA trade deal. There will be cars for cars. Little else.

Agri & food can't be squared, for the reasons you state.

Pharma... too expensive to remove the way NHS buys in.

Posted by: MonkeySpacePilot

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And if anyone wants a realistic path back to the eu...

 

Carney is advocating for a Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand free trade and mobility zone in the Canadian election. Starmer should go full bore for that.

Then in a few years, negotiate a customs union between the EU and the new free trade zone.

Then a few years after that look at merging the 2 into an expanded single free trade and mobility zone.

 

That would be a far better tactic than kowtowing to the US.

thats certainly the next best option assuming rejoining the eu isn’t going to happen

Posted by: MonkeySpacePilot

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ah , the purity test . the curse of the left. 

 

Ah preach capitulation to the fascists and attack the left, the MO of the centrists.

Actually nickc was attacking a comment originally made by a self-identified centrist claiming that their vote was only on loan to Labour.

Starmer......so bad that he is even causing divisions among centrists. 

Starmer......so bad that he is even causing divisions among centrists. 

Hardly a surprise. I doubt even the most enthusiastic Starmer fans expected him to jump on Trump and Farage's reactionary fascist bandwagon. Starmer was supposed to be the flag waver of metropolitan liberal grown-ups, not slackjawed yokels from the fens. 

Farage's reactionary fascist bandwagon

Is that the new name for the Brexit Bandwagon?

Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal

Posted by: ernielynch

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https://news.sky.com/story/league-table-of-foreign-criminals-awaiting-deportation-and-their-offences-set-to-be-published-13353517

 

The source added that ministers wanted "to ensure the public is kept better informed about the number of foreign criminals awaiting deportation, where they are from and the crimes they have committed".

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/26/how-idea-of-stripping-citizenship-for-crimes-spread-across-europe

But what was clear was that the policy had provided “legal framing” for the longstanding, xenophobic public discourse that had falsely sought to link immigration to crime. “The issue with these changes is that it perpetuates the problematic perception that ancestry and ethnicity play a role in determining criminality,” he said.

Indeed. And apparently the foundations were laid down by another UK Prime Minister:

The roots of these changes can be traced back partly to the early 2000s when the UK government – led at the time by Tony Blair – began casting citizenship as a privilege rather than a right, said Christian Joppke, a sociology professor at the University of Bern.

Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal

Bullshit. We're in no position to be choosy after Brexshit.

The new Labour buzz-line is.

"All options are on the table."

Starmer kept going on about it with British Steel and now Nandy with the TV license.

This is the new marketing gambit for - "we don't know what we are doing."  What are all the options then please?

Vague, fence-sitting Tory speak. 

I think this piece demonstrates exactly where we are with politics.

Just about everything we discuss is reflected here in Runcorn and Helsby as Bastani goes on mic rove.

It really doesn't take a logical leap to understand people want stuff fixing and making better and then the immigration issue will likely subdue.

That could still take ages but would be a half-decent coherent plan.

But that would be ideologically at odds with the three main parties now.

Posted by: rone

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It really doesn't take a logical leap to understand people want stuff fixing and making better and then the immigration issue will likely subdue.

There is a reason why reform and the tories are keen on the immigration issue. It is a handy thing to blame for their (lets face it reform policies are tory) policies which have wrecked the UK. The problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of our assets to sell on the cheap and the rental bill comes due.

Problem is the labour right are equally keen on Thatcherism but slightly (although only slightly nowadays) squeamish about blaming immigration and havent found another good candidate yet aside from the side game in blaming all that evil redtape from keeping the housing companies from building enough.

Posted by: Oakwood

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Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal

 

Bullshit. We're in no position to be choosy after Brexshit.

We can have only one of the two.  A deal with thr EUon mutual recognition on food standards or a trade deal with the US.  They are mutually incompatible 

We gotta break this cycle.

Market doesn't deliver - government doesn't want to spend in any meaningful way. Voters blame migrants. New right-wing government elected to solve this. 

Back to start.

European trade deal

That trade deal stuff will be interesting if (probably when) Reform do very well in the locals and probably win Runcorn too.

Then Morgan "Don't upset the racists" McSweeney will be bleating on again despite Labour being 3 or 2 times more likely to lose votes to Libdem or Green (respectively) than Reform. Unfortunately the survey that found those stats didn't seem to pay any regard to where those things would happen in terms of constituencies.

Then Morgan "Don't upset the racists" McSweeney will be bleating on again despite Labour being 3 or 2 times more likely to lose votes to Libdem or Green (respectively) than Reform. 

This is true although according to most opinion polls it is the Greens who out of the two have seen the greatest increase in support since the general election.

If correct support for the Greens is almost double what it was in the general election whilst support for the LibDems hasn't increased much more than a couple of percent.

What will help Starmer/McSweeney will be the likely false comfort of Labour actually increasing their number of council seats in the local elections.

The last time those seats were up for grabs was 2021 when the Tories were riding very high and Labour only received 30% of the vote. With the Tory vote now deeply split with Reform UK it is likely going to help Labour win quite a few seats 

The Runcorn by-election result will be harder for Starmer/McSweeney to explain and I fully expect them to double down on the racist dog-whistling, that is the usual reaction to a far-right threat.

Posted by: rone

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It really doesn't take a logical leap to understand people want stuff fixing and making better and then the immigration issue will likely subdue

From this side of the channel, both Germany's and France's society 'works' better than it does in the UK. Germany has the largest economy in Europe, and by comparison France's infrastructure and civic society is generally more favourable to it's citizens than in the UK. Both of these countries have the same immigration paradox that the UK has, and are riven by the same far-right political parties that exploit the very same fears.. 

Posted by: tjagain

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  A deal with thr EUon mutual recognition on food standards or a trade deal with the US.  They are mutually incompatible 

There's nothing stopping the UK from saying to the US - we'll buy your stuff, but it needs to meet 'this' standard. But then the US doesn't (currently) need an export market - being as they are; the largest consumer market in the world. 

This is true although according to most opinion polls it is the Greens who out of the two have seen the greatest increase in support since the general election.

Slightly different question/answer, though.

This was about where Labour have lost votes to rather than where Libdem/Green have picked up votes from.

I'll be voting Libdem.

Nick

Trump has made it clear we have to take their food as they make it.  apparently our food standards are tarrifs or some such gibberish

There will be no deal on that basis and anyway that's the basis for current trade

stupid me mucking up posts

Ernie.  and SNP in Scotland.   polls show iirc that almost all the votes Labour took off the SNP  at the GE have gone back 

A year ago the SNP looked like they would lose control of Holywood.  That's changed.  A pro Europe pro immigration left of centre party can attract votes even as the least worst option

Well Starmer is probably about to find out why not being Torys was good enough when they had to be got rid of, but not good enough nearly a year later.

It's more the reaction that will be most interesting. In my opinion, they should make the case for democratic socialism. But I suspect they'll take the easy option and go for government by Daily Telegraph editorial.

From this side of the channel, both Germany's and France's society 'works' better than it does in the UK. Germany has the largest economy in Europe, and by comparison France's infrastructure and civic society is generally more favourable to it's citizens than in the UK. Both of these countries have the same immigration paradox that the UK has, and are riven by the same far-right political parties that exploit the very same fears.. 

Having the largest economy says nothing  about how you deliver for public purpose. USA has the biggest economy in the world remember - that's not really got them very far in the current conversation.

What is important is distribution, inequality and material conditions.

Germany's economy hasn't escaped the slump either. It's possible that both France and Germany still aren't 'favourable' enough for many people who live their.

Remember Neolibralism delivers wealth for an ever decreasing amount of people even if that wealth measured by size of the economy looks great.

We have three right-wing parties all scratching similar itches but none of them offering actual fixes. So expect more disillusionment.

(And of course people with wealth vote, and influence those without money too.)

It's more the reaction that will be most interesting. In my opinion, they should make the case for democratic socialism. But I suspect they'll take the easy option and go for government by Daily Telegraph editorial.

Given we've got local elections on Thursday (apologies if there is a seperate thread) how much literature have people had?

So far we have had one leaflet through the door. It wasn't from Reform either, but a local independant.

Also given the threat that reform pose, why do people constantly think the answer is to lean into their policies & not go the other way?

No their policies are stupid, they're lying to you. What am I missing here?

What am I missing here?

The allure of having your prejudices legitimised into mainstream political discourse.

Farage is quite experienced and good at this.

This won't be helping Labour tomorrow, if for no other reason than it remind voters of both Rachel Reeves's and Keir Starmer's previous poor judgement. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rachel-reeves-investigated-parliament-local-elections-b2742528.html

She's totally ridiculous.

Incompetent; morally devoid of a sense of public purpose and an appalling lack of financial understanding.

Hopefully today will give them a kick up the arse.

But I doubt they will care. 

It would seem that the press have a list of freebies and/or people willing to rat. Labour supporters (of which I am no longer one) cannot moan about this - it is exactly the same drip-drip that the press used with Johnson and Partygate - whether you view Johnson as more morally bankrupt and a more legitimate target is moot.

The idea, of course, was to be whiter than white for at least the last 6 months in opposition and from then on. Something that people like Reeves obviously forgot. There's a lot of discussion around how Labour are seeking not to alienate working class voters who may or may not possess iliberal tendencies. But what is a guaranteed way to piss off your average man in the street who may be thinking they might give Reform a go?

Three words - freebie theatre tickets. If it had been tickets for the darts or Chubby Brown, it wouldn't be so bad. 🤣🤣🤣

I can only laugh and put my tick in the Libdem or Green box from now on.

Posted by: PrinceJohn

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how much literature have people had?

Reform and Lib dem (although the lib dems is more a "how well we are doing" vs a targeted campaign pamphlet

Posted by: PrinceJohn

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What am I missing here?

Good question. I am sure though since we kept being told Starmer is a grown up pragmatist there are some good reasons for it. To question it is to be overly ideological pure. Believe in the leader.

The idea, of course, was to be whiter than white for at least the last 6 months in opposition and from then on.

I know - how hard could it have been to keep this stuff from happening?

The defense by the liberal journo 'intellectuals' was absurd.  

They would have shit themselves if these had been Tories as they actually did.

(Optics don't matter yelled James O'Brien. Rules do. What a prat.)

It was the worst start possible and pretty indicative of the course set by the total embarrassment that is the Labour party.

Nothing has got better since.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1918069273966137367

First result of the night. 

Nigel Farage's smugness is going to reach new heights by the end of the night.

Ooooft

Full recount at Runcorn/Helsby.

Reform ahead by 4pts! There will be some grimacing there.

This is one of Labour's safest seats. In 2024 Labour had a 14696 maj.

Holy shit.

not unusual to see freak results in bye elections.   The norm is they revert at GE

Reform win Runcorn by 6 votes 😯 

not unusual to see freak results in bye elections.   The norm is they revert at GE

I would say the 'norm' is to shift further to the right, enabled by 3 RW parties and Labour failure.

This is not going away.

I'm not sure what you think reverting to the norm is these days.

Maybe Labour MPs shouldn't beat up constiuents!

Nigel Farage's smugness is going to reach new heights by the end of the night.

His smugness is deserved.

He's running rings around our two large main parties despite being the absolute antithesis of working class.

(I was listening to Tice yesterday - what an badly informed individual. But he's very good in the interview situation - never getting flustered.)

Other thing is - especially Farage - these are not really what I would call genuine business people. Both parasitic on the backs of the working class in their previous line of 'work' - adding little value to society. Why this argument can't be sold to working class voters - I've not got a clue.

Posted by: pete

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Reform win Runcorn by 6 votes 😯 

Maybe Lab need to have long hard think why the Green vote wasn’t squeezed harder? A lot of the Blue Labour strategy seems to be ‘offer Reform-lite and LD and Green voters will vote tactically to keep Reform and the Tories out’ which doesn’t seem to have been borne out in reality.

Andrea Jenkyns’ acceptance speech totally incoherent and full of dog-whistling, so no change there.

After a freak bye election result normally the previous holders regain it at the GE.   Thats the political norm

Jeepers some of the gloating is unseemly and some of the supposed lefties are obviously rooting for reform 

Lincolnshire really needs to be cut adrift from the UK and pushed into the North Sea a bit.

Posted by: PrinceJohn

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Also given the threat that reform pose, why do people constantly think the answer is to lean into their policies & not go the other way?

No their policies are stupid, they're lying to you. What am I missing here?

I think it's a political discourse "thing" a bit like PMQ where you are supposed to use your wit and erudition and debating skills to best your opponent.

I think that calling them and their policies stupid is sort of frowned upon.

You're just supposed to come up with better policies. The problem is that the media will amplify and "sell" the policies which get the clickbait rage going, the politicians will be led by this and you end up in a popularity war where you're all trying to appeal to a small section of Daily Mail readers.

To save me reading back does STW have any Reform representatives? Brexit had some very vocal Brexiters (mostly long gone on their 2016 pseudos) but I haven't noticed any Reform fans.

On Runcorn I note that the Halton local authority voted Brexit by 57.4% which was properly shooting oneself in the foot. Reform's ex conservative dodgy magistrate Sarah Pochin's hubby claimed the failure of his business was partly due to Brexit. And she wins for Reform. I look forward to the only thing I can remember about Runcorn, that bridge, being painted red white and blue like NI kerb stones.

Some voters really are spitefully thick.

Looks like a conservative hold for our council but a close one with reform. I could have guessed around 90% of the wards that a reform candidate win in. They were destroyed in the 2 wards for my area, green stormed home in one. 

Jeepers some of the gloating is unseemly and some of the supposed lefties are obviously rooting for reform 

That's just ridiculous.

I just want a decent progressive party to fix the UK and push these chancers away.

My line of argument has always been Labour moving to the right (from way before the 2025 election) is not the way to fix society. 

About time centrists looked inwards to understand their part in enabling these right-wing narratives. 

Both the Democrats and now Labour are simply not delivering for the working class.

(Rooting for reform would mean voting for them.)

Starmer's government is failing at a rapid level. The evidence is all around us. Maybe just maybe Labour being totally shit is more than half of the problem.

Some voters really are spitefully thick.

Or, successive governments haven't given certain groups people the much of a good crack at life?

Amazing someone who is not spitefully thick might have your understanding.