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a word of caution on Bastani….. he’s gone flirting with fascism
Really? Where?
I can't stand his work, and his recent-ish piece on George Galloway (Bastani wouldn't vote for him, but only because he discovered his intolerant views on LGBTQ+ issues. Really? Not the decades of grifting or apologetics for awful people or dodgy practices around "charities"?) was very eyeroll-worthy. But I haven't seen any signs of fascist sympathies.
Wow, clearly a lot of people in here who don’t quite understand politics.
I'm sorry... My irony meter is going crazy right now! You're going to have to clarify your position of authority for me so that I can understand your position here...
I shan’t read any further comments as I don’t put up with being mocked, so enjoy the rest of your time here.
Or maybe, and quite predictably... NOT!
Starmer will probably get shut of it next week now the vote has served its purpose… getting rid of the last of magic grandads disciples.
They can join him in backbench, placard-waving irrelevance.
Their spiritual home
Also willing to bet that it wouldn't take @cougar or any other forum mods very long to unearth historic evidence of your undying loyalty to said placard waving irrelevants either...
FWIW, I really don't have strong views either way about this 2 child cap... That certainly puts me in a minority here, but there are arguments both for and against that have relevance, and I don't think lifting it will have the desired effect of lifting hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty in the way that its undying supporters think it would... But I have a real issue with Starmer's Johnson-esque heavy hand regarding dissenting voices, and believe that it will come back to bite him in the arse much sooner than later!
It might only be the likes of Long-Bailey, Burgon and Zultana right now, but when it's far more prominent Labour MP's who have already swallowed more of Starmer's highly questionable right wing authoritarianism than they should have ever had to, start rebelling too...? There's a great many Labour MP's that are far more closely aligned with the current Green Party than they are with Starmer's version of Labour, and they won't stay silent forever!
You get used to it. There’s a little pack of lefty hyenas on here who get together and pile on to anyone who disagrees with them.
You've got a predictably short memory... I can certainly remember not that long ago (certainly, eBikes were already quite a thing, and 26" wheels were long dead on new bikes) that you were the self appointed chief "lefty hyena" on this forum...
I do actually have a degree
Binners if it's any consolation I have never been taken in by your pasty-eating proper working-class geezer STW persona, TBH I doubt many people have.
I think you were probably set a trap which you walked into. "Binners proclaims he has a degree shocker"
I'll somewhat retract my post about Bastani....I've got a conversation on my phone with a pal talking about a couple of GB News vids that we'd thought were far right in tone and content. I cannot for the life of me now find them. Apologies.
mboy - for me its partly the symbology of it and partly the fact that while it would not solve child poverty it would give poor families with 3 or more kids an immediate cash boost that would be significant.
its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible
its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible
This.
Centrism is not really about solutions and comes undone very quickly. It wants to attack conservatism and support it at the exact same time which leads to things like this.
Blimey, it's all got a little heated tonight!
I'll check back in tomorrow, well today now.
its also quite funny watching those who will not criticize Starmer squirm as the retention of this policy is indefensible
Squirming? What squirming? I don't see any squirming.
The centrists seem to be very comfortable pushing the official Labour line on the issue.....They hate the child benefit cap, of course they do, who wouldn't hate such an unfair Tory policy? Unfortunately the Tories have left the economy in such a state that Labour can't do anything about it right now. But don't worry, as soon as they can scrap it they definitely will.
The heat is for good reasons though.
A few of us want to see some change.
This would have been a decent place to start.
I admit despite even with all my public finance discussion - that Labour will have a battle on when it comes to spending. They will get slammed about it.
But they need to fight this. The evidence is strong enough to argue the mechanics.
It's the same with the Democrats - they seem to want to make excuses for their decisions - whereas the Republicans and Tories just do what they want.
If only Starmer used his authority for the good stuff.
Squirming? What squirming? I don’t see any squirming.
There's been a lot of jumping through hoops to defend it when they know in their hearts it's not a good thing. And mechanically I challenge any of them to cite finances as a reason when Starmer is promising money for Ukraine - at a very basic level that is a contradiction. (3bn a year as long as it takes )
If we could zoom back to 2017 on this forum would there be support for it in the anti-Tory threads?
Another thread goes down the shitter.
The members who post prolifically to political (and other) threads are sometimes referred to as 'big hitters' and, typically, add nothing to any subject.
In my business experience, a big hitter is someone who delivers - usually in adverse circumstances; somewhat different to STW's 'big hitters'.
In reality, on STW, they are individuals like needy kids in a classroom who always want to have the last word and their contributions, despite their invariable length, add nothing to the debate.
Quoting chunks of others original works is naked plagiarism.
Time to cancel my (print & digital) membership; I'm sure one of the many voluble free loaders will now become a full member to maintain STW's revenue stream.
Ha!
In reality, on STW, they are individuals like needy kids in a classroom who always want to have the last word and their contributions, despite their invariable length, add nothing to the debate.
No we don't!
Ian Dunt on the benefit cap 2018.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1012352859583668227?t=4fTuarsO8grFCC555jR9Ig&s=19
Ian Dunt last month on the benefit cap.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1798968773161930983?t=IOXo-gTeSD1gsBf8apLmJQ&s=19
Ian Dunt today on the vote.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1815842752610947433?t=08E6MV-rpTswmbGvZO9ZgQ&s=19
You see the issue with Centrism?
Time to cancel my (print & digital) membership; I’m sure one of the many voluble free loaders will now become a full member to maintain STW’s revenue stream.
If we score flounces that has to be a 10/10. Don't take it so seriously, I am sure most of us are just passing time/taking a break when at work and just enjoy the sometimes pointless arguments. It is after all an MTB forum not a high brow political debating forum.
Be interesting to see the post numbers by days and hours within the day as I am sure most will be around 9-5 Monday to Friday.
walks in, sees the remnants of the tables and chairs from last night's bar fight, shakes head, walks off again.
Well done chaps, you trashed the pub and like Frank I'm not sure I want to drink in it any longer.
You gotta laugh at the amateur dramatics on display
Did anyone really think the Labour government thread was going to be a consensus ?
The members who post prolifically to political (and other) threads are sometimes referred to as ‘big hitters’ and, typically, add nothing to any subject.
As well as drowning the forum in their noise.
I always thought the term big hitters was used ironically.
You gotta laugh at the amateur dramatics on display
Yep, wonder what happens when things that actually matter occur?
Did anyone really think the Labour government thread was going to be a consensus ?
No idea, I certainly didn't, but I did expect it to turn into a very limited number of posters saying the same thing over and over again driving away an unknown number of alternative contributors and viewpoints.
Relax folks. A loose coterie of 'big hitters' got on a roll with a positive feedback loop of borderline bullying and the result was a bit nasty.
New day, same old problems out there in the real world. And no amount of fantasy economics can sort it.
<shrugs>
Rabble: a large, noisy, uncontrolled group of people; people of low social position.
Elected on a 33% vote share and 60% turnout.
I do actually have a degree, but it’s for crayoning so probably doesn’t count, right?
Binbins, absolutely no-one is taken in by your act.
Some people might think that’s worth it – but in any case it’s more complicated than “UK should turn off the tap”.
It was Liz Kendall's interview by Mishal Husain that resurrected that and it was a point made in the context of a "UK Government Thread", rather than the Gaza thread
Why isn't it possible for UK Government politicians to treat the electorate as intelligent and answer in (appropriate) depth, rather than sound as if nothing is being done now when they've had since (October) to think about the problem? "Not that simple...International treaties...Ongoing trade deals...Massively reduced volume since...blah, blah"
You can think many things about grimep, but his/her timing is pretty impeccable.
Thanks! But please don't imply I'm one of the fu#k1#9 pronoun people.
Thanks! But please don’t imply I’m one of the fu#k1#9 pronoun people.
I was treating you as someone whose gender I do not know. No need to flap.
Attempting to move things on...
BBC News - We don't know how many people are having babies - and that's a headache for schools - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ced3e219lxzo
This is an interesting article which, as well as the immediate challenges for schools, also has a large bearing on our economy. We've known for some time that we have a low birth rate and an aging population. The risks to our economy of less economically active people is known, the last Govt attempted to solve it by making people work for longer. But that won't account for all that is needed. This, to me, is where the rhetoric of the populist nonsense about immigration needs a significant challenge. Otherwise we'll find ourselves in a bigger hole than we are now.
This, to me, is where the rhetoric of the populist nonsense about immigration needs a significant challenge.
The problem here is that you'll need to do it in three words or less - that can fit on the side of a bus.
When the ancient Greeks came up with 'demokratia', they insisted that it had to be paired at the hip with education to prevent the people falling prey to easy populism. Unfortunately, I think the UK is past the tipping point on this issue.
Well I guess diverting the thread to go completely off topic and threaten flounces is one way for centrists to deal with the awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.
But back on the "UK government" topic. There appears to be a widely held view that Starmer and his advisors are playing a dangerous game with their extremely low tolerance of dissent.
New Labour and Tony Blair was notorious for its "control freakery" and yet despite that Blair was hugely relaxed about Parliamentary rebellions and took them in his stride.
Blair knew his huge majority, similar to Starmer's, meant that he could afford to and that a bit of Parliamentary dissent is actually not a bad look. Especially when you are trying to shake off the image of having a Stalinist grip on the party.
Starmer, or more likely Morgan McSweeney, seems to take the opposite view. Unfortunately he is likely to be storing up future problems for himself as the cracks start to appear even among his centrists. As this excellent piece in the Times today by Rosie Duffield suggests
Unfortunately, I think the UK is past the tipping point on this issue.
As are a lot of countries. Populist leaders know what they are doing and taking advantage of people who are not going to suddenly get educated.
One way of dealing with it is to be stricter on the nonsense parties come out with but that only goes so far as people like Farage were not working pretty much as an individual but has done a lot of damage.
When the ancient Greeks came up with ‘demokratia’, they insisted that it had to be paired at the hip with education to prevent the people falling prey to easy populism
I am not sure thats a completely accurate take on it. Although they were keen on restricting it to the right type of people there wasnt really a requirement for education unless you look at the arguments put forward by some of the philosophical schools which wasnt a city state level requirement.
Even there the approach to democracy was variable eg Plato wasnt the greatest fan although in fairness "democracy" had bumped his teacher off.
centrists to deal with the awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.
As a much hated centrist, I'm disappointed that the indefensible Tory policy is still in place and Statmer resorted to a 3 line whip, despite it being an easy win with most voters.
I also understand that if you hang your hat on costing/funding things to get elected, you have to be shown to have done that or the right wing press will make your job harder. It may be that it's part of a wider budget package around child poverty that isn't finalised yet, and announcing parts of it piecemeal won't work politically for some reason I don't understand.
Unlike some patronising know it alls on here, I at least recognise that there are many things I'm not an expert on.
awkwardness of having to defend an indefensible Tory policy which was the subject of a Labour three line whip.
What, faced with trying to force workers who can't afford to start a family to pay for the large families of benefit dependents, while realising the dire state of the economy cannot afford such waste and largesse, the Labour government took the only possible choice? It would be completely immoral to do anything else, a rare glimpse of sanity from the commies.
But back on the “UK government” topic. There appears to be a widely held view that Starmer and his advisors are playing a dangerous game with their extremely low tolerance of dissent
This is where I think it is a very calculated risk. Essentially this cohort were always going to be the thorn in his side. But his centrist position has further marginalised the far left in the Party. He's given them a chance to follow the manifesto, they've swerved it and he has said fine, I don't need you.
If they had abstained, like a few did, this wouldn't have happened. They would have been warned and he's followed through with any warning.
I think the policy is rubbish, but the approach is sensible. He's shown that he is keen to stick to the manifesto and do things appropriately. The optics of just relying on the magic money tree would look bad, despite there likely being a multiplier effect of reversing the policy. Let's judge after a year, not after a few weeks.
At least no one can call him indecisive anymore.
But his centrist position has further marginalised the far left in the Party.
I posted a link to an opinion piece by Rosie Duffield written in today's Times.....he is also marginalising centrists!
The deputy prime minister's CV:
Rayner was born and raised in Stockport, where she attended the comprehensive Avondale School. She left school aged 16 whilst pregnant and without any qualifications. She later trained in social care at Stockport College and worked for the local council as a care worker. She eventually became a trade union representative within Unison, during which time she joined the Labour Party.
Hmm. That's the second highest ranking minister. Oh well.. socialism.
What, faced with trying to force workers who can’t afford to start a family to pay for the large families of benefit dependents
A lot of those "benefit dependents" are workers? Its just we are subsidising their employers to not pay a living wage.
In addition circumstances change. If you get laid off and can only find a low paying job then what are you supposed to do with that third kid?
I also understand that if you hang your hat on costing/funding things to get elected, you have to be shown to have done that or the right wing press will make your job harder
The King's Speech contained significant financial commitments which have been made ahead of spending reviews. I guess they were judged to be more important than the benefit cap.
Keir Stoma's government say they'll build 1,500,000 new homes over the next 5 years.
That's 822 a day.
They've been in a few weeks now, how's that panning out for them?