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Any views on the proposed Corbyn Sultana new party? Will it provide a new home for the left?
Any views on the proposed Corbyn Sultana new party? Will it provide a new home for the left?
I'm kind of conflicted, I like the idea of a more left wing party, can see the press having another field day if Corbyn is the figurehead. I can't imagine him being any more media savvy or aggressive enough to push back on them.
Until we have PR its stupid. all it will do is hand electoral advantage to the tories / reform by splitting off some votes from labour. Posturing 6th form po0litics.Any views on the proposed Corbyn Sultana new party? Will it provide a new home for the left?
I think I'd welcome more parties, but under the 'first past the post' system it's just splitting votes.
I honestly belive we need some form of PR.
Yes it will give some loonies more weight but it will also give more weight overall to the more moderate, and ultimately a more fair balance overall.
At holyrood under PR we have had some proper lefties elected. Unfortunately despite starting well and actually achieving a couple of things they disintegrated into a series of factions not helped by a sex scandal to their leader and we haven't had any for a while elected
I'm no expert but I'm struggling to see any mutual exclusivity between sex scandals and PR, or indeed left wingers.
Exhibit A: the Conservative party.
🤣
Posturing 6th form po0litics.
Jeezus that is so ****ing tiring.
Another point of view is that UK politics is changing and voters no longer have any confidence in the established parties, so why give them Reform UK as the only alternative choice?
What an actual left-wing social democratic party might reasonably achieve under present conditions is win a dozen or so seats, which could be part of an anti-Tory/Reform coalition and provide the desperately needed radical element to the agenda.
There was a time when the Labour Party standing in elections helped the Tories by splitting the Liberal vote, but the point had been reached when the Liberal Party could no longer be seen as a vehicle for meaningful change. We have reached that same stage with today's Labour Party - it is no longer the vehicle for meaningful change.
What adds to the critical situation is that the Tory Party is on its knees. The world's most successful political party is now the weakest it has been in 200 years, right now could not possibly be a better time to redefine British politics.
Sure a new threat has emerged in the shape of Reform but all the more reason to challenge them face-to-face with a radical alternative. Furthermore I have zero confidence in Reform's ability to govern which simply adds to the urgency of providing a genuine alternative.
Posturing 6th form po0litics
And yet we have an actual meltdown from the so called 'adults' in government - daily.
As for the 6th form thing - where the hell does it even come from? When I was in the 6th form never really thought about politics and people were in love with Thatcher back then.
I'd say get grip - you want better it's gonna have to be push back from the right.
You can call it's 6th form politics but I call it the only option.
(Besides who the **** in their right mind wants another right-wing party?)
Do centrists love right-wing parties, because they certainly keep rubber stamping them, blindly.
Posturing 6th form po0litics
And yet we have an actual meltdown from the so called 'adults' in government - daily.
As for the 6th form thing - where the hell does it even come from? When I was in the 6th form never really thought about politics and people were in love with Thatcher back then.
I'd say get grip - you want better it's gonna have to be push back from the right.
You can call it's 6th form politics but I call it the only option.
(Besides who the **** in their right mind wants another right-wing party?)
Do centrists love right-wing parties, because they certainly keep rubber stamping them, blindly.
Nope
As a self professed moderate you're simply trash talking, yet again.
And you're simply unable or unwilling to see that you're part of the problem.
Posturing 6th form politics.
How do you propose stopping Starmer from marching Labour even further to the right?
Until we have PR its stupid. all it will do is hand electoral advantage to the tories / reform by splitting off some votes from labour. Posturing 6th form po0litics.
Reform, the Tories and labour are right wing parties, let them fight it out for the right wing votes.
The left need to start fighting for people for and stop being afraid of "damaging" a labour party that has already rejected the traditional ideology of fairness and equality that I believe in, labour have abandoned me and many others, and they need to feel the consequences, I absolutely cannot give them my vote until they change.
It isn't "6th form political postering" to offer an alternative to the people who have already been rejected by the right wing status quo, labour lost about 3 million votes from Corbyn to Starmer, and they have probably at least a couple more million in the past 12 months. The neoliberal consensus survives not just by giving people no choice, but by making them fearful of the choices that will actually make their lives better.
there is no way to stop the rightwards drift of labour outside of the party. All these folk will do is split the vote and make having a tory / reform government more likely
Its the reality
Politics is the art of the possible and these folk are just a gift to the right. The only thing they can acheive is making a tory/ reform government more likely
As for the 6th form bit - its a classic of this stereotype. Full of right on posturing achieving nothing. I have spent my life4 being politicval and have met loads of folk like this over the years. Sum total of their acheivements? Zero.
BTW - my personal politics are waaaay to the left.
And you're simply unable or unwilling to see that you're part of the problem.
Pot kettle black!
Ernie - what good would them winnin g a dozxen seats ( highly unlikely) do if they gift the tories / reform a hundred seats?
If they’d joined the Green Party, I might be interested. Starting a new party, and assuming they’re the leaders? Hmm. Other than damaging Labour, what’s the point? Media attention? If we had PR, it might be of value long term, as it stands, it just helps Reform short term.
As for the 6th form thing - where the hell does it even come from?
It comes from Richard Littlejohn's regular rants in the Daily Mail and brought to STW care of binners when he too includes it in his regular rants.
Here is a choice line from one of Richard Littlejohn's rants about Rachael Reeves back in April :
You don’t need me to remind you that her disastrous, vindictive, Sixth-form socialist, class-war Budget has crashed the economy, suffocating any green shoots of growth.
Give me one achievement - actual concrete achievement any of the various left minor parties have succeeded in in parliament? Socials worker, socialist organiser and the rest of them
the Scottish socialists had one - and end to warrant sales. Because they were able to get significant representation under PR but they blew it by a descent into factionalism
It comes from Richard Littlejohn
It predates him and his time at the Mail (and the Sun). We used the term when we were at 6th form ourselves. The alternative was just to use “Citizen Smith” to describe people who engage in this way. Descending into smaller and smaller factions to declare themselves the leader, while accusing everyone else of betraying their ideals.
Anyway… where’s the Monty Python clip…?
I'm no expert but I'm struggling to see any mutual exclusivity between sex scandals and PR, or indeed left wingers.
Exhibit A: the Conservative party.
🤣
I was just describing the historical trajectory of the Scottish socialist party. they went from holding the balance of power with representation in parliament to nothing because of factionalism
Ernie - what good would them winnin g a dozxen seats ( highly unlikely) do if they gift the tories / reform a hundred seats?
You do realise that even without a left-wing party being formed Labour won't be winning the next general election, don't you?
The very latest opinion poll puts Labour on 22% which is typical of their support for months now. No party on that low level of support ever wins general elections.
Although perhaps you want to tell me about the rabbit which Starmer is going to pull out of the hat at the last minute eh?
Delusionary primary school politics!
One legislative / policy change from the efforts of the left wing factions outside of the labour party?
I am not defending labour in any way BTW. I am just giving my opinbion on this. Its just an ego trip. There are existing parties she could join. there is no chance of her doing anything with a new party other than helping the tories / reform
Ernie - what good would them winnin g a dozxen seats ( highly unlikely) do if they gift the tories / reform a hundred seats?
If Reform carries on driving Labour policy then it's not going to matter. The reality is that Starmer has a transactional relationship with his party and the electorate: a left wing brake will only work if he sees that people are prepared to vote for it. I see nothing grown up about enabling this colossally cynical man.
Starmer and Labour know full well that they're going to be crushed at the next election.
The tide has turned, ordinary people are waking up to the fact that mass migration and the multicultural project has utterly failed. Starmer spent most of last year labelling Labours traditional voter base as far right racists so I wouldn't be expecting many votes from them.
Muslim communities have a fair bit of political power as they tend to be concentrated together and vote as a block. Now they're realising that their community interests are better served voting for themselves rather than Labour. You can expect to see many more independent MPs coming from traditional Labour heartlands.
Who exactly does that leave Labour? A few middle class leftists in their leafy suburbs who haven't felt the detrimental effects of mass migration yet, good luck with that one.
I quite like the idea of 4 parties. A left, centre left, centre right, right. It should be possible to make a coalition of two of them that broadly reflects the electorate. It also gives a reasonable poll of political direction. The two party system is rubbish and needs to change. Not sure this is it, there have been splinter parties without getting any traction.
[ there are already many parties in parliament, you already have many parties to choose from on your ballot papers, we haven’t had a two party system since 1900 ]
Other than damaging Labour, what’s the point?
It isnt all about Labour you know and lets be realistic Mcsweeney and his "Island of Strangers" is doing far more damage than anyone else can with his relentless pursuit of the hard right vote (or at least the racist parts of their policy. He is somewhat less keen on the token left wing policies they adopt).
The obvious answer for why not join the Greens or other parties is their policies dont match their own. Admittedly a tricky concept for the average centrist who believes in taking a party and adopting it to their policies but some people dont operate that way.
billabong987 is a good example of the failure here. Despite Starmers chasing the hard right vote that is still being read as "Labours traditional voter base as far right racists" and so he loses those votes and loses all the left wing votes as well leaving him with just the self proclaimed "adults in the room".
Admittedly a tricky concept for the average centrist who believes in taking a party and adopting it to their policies but some people dont operate that way.
Yawn. I’m off the left, and that’s exactly what we did in very recent history, move the Labour Party leftwards. Many people who’d never supported and campaigned for Labour before got involved. People new to Labour supporting a shift in policy direction. It’s lurched back the other way now, and I personally partly blame Corbyn for that, as he chose to fight a second election when he should have been looking to help Labour choose a left wing successor.
Any party with Corbyn at the head will be annihilated by the RW (aka mainstream British) media and the usual portion of the electorate will buy it. But they'll do their best to drag Labour into any hatchet job too.
Yawn. I’m off the left, and that’s exactly what we did in very recent history, move the Labour Party leftwards.
No it really wasnt. At best it moved it slightly back to where it was before Blair and co took it hard to the right. All Corbyn did was realign the leadership with the members. Not dissimilar to how Clegg and friends leaving allowed the Lib Dems to move back to where they had originated.
and I personally partly blame Corbyn for that
Oh and Corbyn will definitely be blamed for the Labour Party being annihilated at the next general election. Centrists never take responsibility for their own failings, it's always somebody else's fault.
One legislative / policy change from the efforts of the left wing factions outside of the labour party?
?????
Corbyn also changed the make up of the members and activists supporting Labour (thanks to Miliband’s changes to how that party work). That is what helped move the party, people getting involved that didn’t before. A great position to build on… but hey. Anyway, people get involved with parties partly to help change them, not because there are some perfect match to their own policy wishes. They never can be… unless you set up your own party where you have the final say and the strongest voice that is.
The left need to start fighting for people for and stop being afraid of "damaging" a labour party that has already rejected the traditional ideology of fairness and equality that I believe in, labour have abandoned me and many others, and they need to feel the consequences, I absolutely cannot give them my vote until they change.
Agree with this. I consider myself a centrist but Labour are now too far right for me.
Everone is still conviniently pretending the lib dems don't exist...
They have 11% of seats in the commons. Thats a huge swing from the before times, huge numbers of people are voting for them, despite FPTP.
The tories have 18%
With labour at 62%
Anyway, on more amusing things, what should the new ultra left spin off of the labour party call itself?
Shamelessly stolen from Reddit, the top suggestions are:
1. Anything left
2. The peoples front of Islington
But more serioulsy, its all a load of BS unless we have PR... FPTP barely qualifies as democracy, in my book.
The Allotment Party.
Jezbollah
Everone is still conviniently pretending the lib dems don't exist...
It is not a question of pretending that they exist it's just an acceptance that since they were screwed by Nick Clegg and Vince Cable they have become an irrelevance when discussing alternatives to the Tories and Labour.
At the last general election the LibDems received 11% of the vote which is about half of what they were getting under Charles Kennedy. Current opinion polls typically puts them on about 13-14% which isn't much of an improvement on a pretty low level of support.
The only party other than Reform UK which has seen a significant increase in support are the Greens, support for them appears to have doubled since the general election. And it is them who are proportionally likely to suffer the most from the creation of a new left-wing social democratic party.
Currant Affairs?
With a nod to previous affairs. 😉
Everone is still conviniently pretending the lib dems don't exist...
It is not a question of pretending that they exist it's just an acceptance that since they were screwed by Nick Clegg and Vince Cable they have become an irrelevance when discussing alternatives to the Tories and Labour.
At the last general election the LibDems received 11% of the vote which is about half of what they were getting under Charles Kennedy. Current opinion polls typically puts them on about 13-14% which isn't much of an improvement on a pretty low level of support.
The only party other than Reform UK which has seen a significant increase in support are the Greens, support for them appears to have doubled since the general election. And it is them who are proportionally likely to suffer the most from the creation of a new left-wing social democratic party.
Well, if you look at it through the prism of FPTP it's distorted. Number of votes doesn't = Number of MP's.
Even so the lib dems are the 3rd largest party, with a much larger share of seats than before, so it really depends on what angle you want to look at it from, and how you want to paint a picture or set a particular narrative.
It's ultimatley bull crap - we need electoral reform (not to be confused with Farrages facist party) from FPTP to a PR type system.
And it will be a bumpy road as the electorate adjust teir mindset to voting for who they actually want, as opposed to voting to keep the party they dislike the most, out.
Until that happens its 'all for the birds' anyway.
- One legislative / policy change from the efforts of the left wing factions outside of the labour party?
- ?????
- Anyone? Just one tiny example of this?
- Pretty much all the great reforms of the last hundred years which have benefited ordinary working people started life as a motion at a trade union branch meeting, from there they have progressed through the union to the national conference, and then from there to Labour Party Conference.
- Once those hurdles were overcome the real fight began to make them Labour government policy. The fight typically was between the left and the right of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
- The Labour Party as a federation of socialist societies and trade unions has always been quite unique in the western industrialised world. It has historically been a broad church/big tent political party covering a wide political spectrum.
- There was little point in having other competing political parties purporting to represent ordinary working people when the Labour Party mostly provided the vehicle needed.
- All that has now very clearly changed. The Labour Party is no longer a broad church. It now only represents very narrow centrist interests and certainly not a wide political spectrum.
- No one outside the narrow leadership clique has any control over policy. I very confidently predict that this current government will be the first Labour government in history not to pass any great reforms which have a significant impact on the lives of ordinary working people.
- It's time to smell the coffee and face up to reality. Sir Keir Starmer claims to have "changed the DNA" of the Labour Party and he has. Or at least Morgan McSweeney has.
Edit : I have absolutely no idea why the paragraphs are numbered, I certainly didn't do it, presumably I clicked on something accidentally. I can't to be arsed to re-format the post. Apologies.
I’m off the left
So is Starmer!