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You really think that thats been achieved by rebelling and could not have been done by other avenues and what difference does it make? the Guardian had already denounced labours refusal to end the 2 child cap strongly on numerous occasions..
This bit of virtue signalling has achieved precisely nothing bar taking the 7 of them further away from being able to influence policy.
Let’s stop vilifying people based upon this arbitrary political spectrum as people are far more complex than that. How about we let people self identify politically, rather than telling them where they are on this arbitrary spectrum?
Absolutley... If ask me if we should have a police force and a judiciary, I'd say yes. That would make me authoritarian, and right wing.
If you ask me if we should have 'free' health care paid from general taxation, I'd say yes, and that would make me a left wing socialist.
So the net avearge of those two questions would make me a centrist?
Well, no, not really, ask me a thousand more political questions and you'll get a thousand different answers. And that's just one person.
It's the job of the government to reach a consensus with a very difficult balancing act on a multitude of very important issues.
At least with our fresh faced government they are actually doing things, as opposed to the outgoing lot who just wanted to 'stop the boats' and 'extract cash from the public for personal gain'.
'extract cash from the public for personal gain' is a bit too long to stick on a pedistal, and proably wouldn't win many votes.
You do realise where the term centrist comes from don’t you? If you are in the centre you are by definition closer to the Tories. So you might not like the term Tory-lite
So anyone to the right of Marx is aTory-lite? I've read some delusional arguments on here but that's right up there.
How can centrist be closer to the Tories? If anything it is closer to what labour now is. There is definitely a right and a far right but no real left. Therefore labour pretty much occupy a centre ground. Poopscoop makes a good point up there ^ I’ve been called a Commie and a Socialist but I’m just left leaning. No country could function for long at either end of the spectrum. It just leads to a crazy person being in charge. A socialist democracy based on conscious capitalism is the way forward. Vote for Funk!
This bit of virtue signalling has achieved precisely nothing bar taking the 7 of them further away from being able to influence policy.
I look forward to the labour budget in a few months where Reeves find the cash to ensure the cap is lifted and social care is made available to all that need it and rely on it
There is definitely a right and a far right but no real left. Therefore labour pretty much occupy a centre ground.
Oh my sweet summer child, Only if you try to shift the envleope/paradigm to suit youself...it's just noise from a very vocal minority, be that a shouty minority from the extreme left or the exreme right, it's the same BS.
cash to lift the cap – thats easy which is why it should have been done straight away
social care – thats a whole different ball game – huge sums of money needed and a load of staff
I doubt there's many on this forum who have the slightest idea regarding the state of social care in this country, or who need the benefit cap lifted so they can attempt to scrape an existence for their kids/family, certainly not Binners with his pathetic remarks.
I'm on various MS forums due to my spms and the utter and sheer despair over the past few years as to the issues folk face attempting to access the most basic cursory care would have folk on here shouting for tax the bankers, tax the super rich, tax the corporations, tax amazon etc....My aunt has MS and can't get the care she needs, my gran is 81 and can't get the care she needs, my mate is dying of a brain tumour and can't get the care he needs, my neighbour can't get the care she needs but thankfully her son makes a 300 mile trip every weekend to make sure she's washed, has been eating, is clean, has food in fridge etc, staying overnight on her couch and leaving early in morning to get back to his work, paid minimal ****ing wage in a warehouse, he's killing himself with the stress/workload.
Up and down the country there will be millions in similar situations so Starmer and Reeves had better get their finger out soon
At the current rate of my progression I'm going to need care that my mother can't manage sooner rather than later, not a ****ing chance I'm hanging around to get my arse wiped.
If Gnusmus is around I imagine he'd have something to say about it.
I look forward to the labour budget in a few months where Reeves find the cash to ensure the cap is lifted and social care is made available to all that need it and rely on it
So do I, and I expect that's exactly what will happen after due process/review.
Wecome to sensible politics... hopefully.
So anyone to the right of Marx is aTory-lite?
You think that is what I have said do you?
Right there is an example of why it is a struggle to have a sensible discussion on political threads
And the comment gets 3 "likes", not because it makes any sense or reflects anything that has been said but because it is seen as having a pop at someone.
There is nothing "delusional" about pointing out where the term centrist comes from.
Personally I prefer the term Labour right-wingers than the term Labour centrists but right-wingers seem to hate being called right-wing, despite the fact that they clearly are. You cannot have a left-wing if you do not have a right-wing.
It is about time right-wingers embraced their political stance and stopped hiding behind terms such as centrist and moderate. If I was embarrassed about being left-wing I would change my stance, not hide behind another term.
Personally I prefer the term Labour right-wingers than the term Labour centrists but right-wingers seem to hate being called right-wing, despite the fact that they clearly are. You cannot have a left-wing if you do not have a right-wing.
If you can have a left wing and a right wing in a party (which I fully accept) doesn't that imply a centre too? Though the centre of a particular party may be to the left or right of another party.
I posted this What political alignment is the British Public? a while ago and thought it was quite interesting see where people of different political persuasions thought they sat on a scale of far left to far right. It seems that most people of any age, social group, political alignment appear to consider themselves central or slightly left/right.
There is nothing “delusional” about pointing out where the term centrist comes from.
Define centrist then...
I'll go first, it means the avearge/middle point, construed from a lot of data.
The centrist point of water, at atmospheric pressure, at sea level is somewhere between Zero or 100 degrees C. So quite a wide range.
I'll call it 50 degrees c.
People really should not be using scientific terms, to make demonstrably false claims.
It seems that most people of any age, social group, political alignment appear to consider themselves central or slightly left/right.
You seem to be doing some interpretation using "slightly" and if you look at the other surveys you should see the obvious problem with letting people define it for themselves.
As we can see repeatedly with people here patting themselves on the back using "pragmatic", "sensible", "grown up", "moderate" it is mostly just variations on the tory/reform position of announcing themselves to be the silent majority. Most people will reflectively think of themselves as being the sensible types and so will go yeah I sit in the middle unless they look seriously at their position and go well actually I am pretty right wing.
When you look at the other survey placing Sunak and co on the same scale you might notice a problem. Anyone who defines the previous tory government as "left wing" is highly likely to be thinking of themselves as centrist and yet they might possibly not be.
Im wioth Ernie Its labour right wing who are right of centre. Reeves and cooper would both be right of centre
I’ll go first, it means the avearge/middle point, construed from a lot of data.
Middle point of what exactly?
Lets take an easy example.
Joe Manchin is often described as centrist/moderate but outside of the USA would be more accurately described as "thinks Thatcher is a bit of a commie".
The general usage, in the UK, is mostly the third way eg traditionally right wing economic policies and traditionally left wing social. Of course this in itself is complex eg Camerons austerity measures which break the left wing social but then a few changes such as gay marriage which support it.
You could also think of being a centrist as someone who's only vote labour when they swing to the right ie Blair but would happily vote tory when they swing towards one nation conservatism. But would never vote reform or for Corbyn.
I reckon there's a few people like that.
Genuine question here @ernielynch and it leads on from my earlier post I suppose.
It is about time right-wingers embraced their political stance and stopped hiding behind terms such as centrist and moderate. If I was embarrassed about being left-wing I would change my stance, not hide behind another term.
I just want to understand really, why is it important to you how people define themselves politically?
I'm not going to follow up with any sort of counter argument, I'm really just interested to know why this political metric is important to you and no doubt some others in here?
Cheers!
Meh 2 kid cap is ok by me. If you cant afford more then dont have more.
I doubt there’s many on this forum who have the slightest idea regarding the state of social care in this country,
I doubt there's many that are involved in the preparation of submissions to the various Gov Depts either. I've explained in as much detail as I can what is happening across Gov, and what the process is by which the new taskforce, DHSC, and DWP will develop their solution to child poverty, and in the end I have been beaten back by the sheer persistence of others repeating their 'it's not difficult', 'there's no limit to spending' etc. Expectations and opinions of what they think should happen, vs what is actually going to happen.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/spending-reviews
It's not a debate, it's just endless repetition of the same 'Yeh but I want' that doesn't make it any truer or any more likely to happen. Have fun with it, there is literally nothing I can add beyond what's already said; I've waited a day so I don't just post in anger but this is my last one on this subject.
As for being accused of a centrist flounce. Maybe I am a centrist, whatever that means. Is it a flounce? I see that as someone running away when they are losing the argument; maybe I'm doing that but as above I can't argue against your 'Yeh but I want' so when I can't add anything further no point hanging around. So I guess you win, not by being in any sense right, but just by persistence.
And the moan at the pub being wrecked - wasn't aimed at either side, there are posters on both sides of this argument that are guilty of hoying the furniture, who should all have a look at themselves.
Have fun.
Could it not just be as simple as people agreeing with his post?
Except in this case there is nothing to agree with. I didn't actually say that anyone to the right of Marx is Tory-lite, so what are they agreeing with? Nothing.
They were presumably liking the post because it was seen as having a dig at someone. It's basically primary school politics, never mind the 6th form.
If you cant afford more then dont have more.
I just lost my job and had to take one which pays considerably less.
What do I do with the third kid? Put them up for adoption and if so should it be first in, last out or should I ask them to reapply for their jobs?
dissonance
Full Member
If you cant afford more then dont have more.I just lost my job and had to take one which pays considerably less.
I was just about to post that as a theoretical scenario. Sorry to hear it's actually happened to you and your family mate.
I just want to understand really, why is it important to you how people define themselves politically?
Well it obviously isn't. I made it clear that personally I prefer to use the term right-wing but they seem to prefer the term centrist, so I tend to use that more these days.
I genuinely have no idea why people who are right-wing tend to prefer not to be called right-wing, it seems to be a common theme across political parties and throughout the world.
I think I see Ernie and thanks for taking the time to reply.
If you cant afford more then dont have more.
I like that, it is an honest declaration that you support the policy.
However it isn't relevant in the context to how it is being discussed here. The current Labour government fully accepts that there is no moral justification for the two-child benefit cap and have made it clear that they will scrap it just as soon as they feel it is affordable.
The issue is whether it is affordable to scrap it or not.
It was hypothetical thankfully. I thought the FILO and reapply for jobs was sufficient but perhaps I should have added more.
Ah, sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick!
I prefer to use the term right-wing but they seem to prefer the term centrist, so I tend to use that more these days.
Can you not see how that sort of language is part of the problem?
They? Who are they?
I'm certainly not 'right wing' by any standard definition of that term. I despised the conservative government for exacly that.
I voted labour despite philosophically being a lib dem.
Give Kier a chance FFS, it's not even been 3 weeks yet, before casting sweeping assumptions.
Joke edit.. if this was a conservative government, we'd be have cycled through at least 2 PM's by now.
@dissonance yes making sure that minimum wage work pays enough to live on is a priority for me too.
Unemployed people with more than 2 kids not so much.
Give Kier a chance FFS, it’s not even been 3 weeks yet, before casting sweeping assumptions.
What sweeping assumptions?
What sweeping assumptions?
The cabal of ultra left Hyenas* on here
* copyright acknowledgement @binners
It makes every political thread really boring when the usual few suspects just cluster bomb it with a load of crap.
The cabal of ultra left Hyenas* on here
* copyright acknowledgement @binners
It makes every political thread really boring when the usual few suspects just cluster bomb it with a load of crap.
This plea will fall on deaf ears. It's just myopic righteousness. We're all wrong because we don't agree with the narrow sliver of the politics or economics they adhere to.
There's no nuance, no understanding or acceptance of different perspectives, and worst of all, no sense of humour.
This plea will fall on deaf ears. It’s just myopic righteousness. We’re all wrong because we don’t agree with the narrow sliver of the politics or economics they adhere to.
Its the narrow sliver of righteous centrists screaming every other view down that's the problem. I notice they have now got sensitive about labels when they have been applied to them, they couldn't give a flying **** about labels when they have been screaming "shit thick racists" at the poor, "commie" at anyone to the left of thatcher or "racist pensioner" at the old. Where were the smug self proclaimed "adults in the room" then? Where were you when binners decided that having mocking children in poverty and brown people getting slaughtered in Palestine was such a fun good way of attacking the left, clicking like and egging on the abuse?
And don't tell me your you/they are sensible ones when the populists say the boiling point of water is a parrot, so they say that the boiling point of water is halfway between 100 and a parrot, because that's the "sensible balanced position". And every time the populists become more extreme the centrists step towards them like moths to the flame ever more convinced of their righteousness, while hurling abuse at those they left behind.
Its the narrow sliver of righteous centrists screaming every other view down that’s the problem. I notice they have now got sensitive about labels when they have been applied to them, they couldn’t give a flying * about labels when they have been screaming “shit thick racists” at the poor, “commie” at anyone to the left of thatcher or “racist pensioner” at the old.
That sounds very much like something out of the Donald Trump play book, Slow clap for you.
Would it really hurt you to step back, and have a think??
centrists screaming
they couldn’t give a flying * about labels
For someone who doesn't like lables, you seem to be very sensitive to lables, you cheeky Nazi, you!
Give my regards to Nigel when you see him in hell. Sorry, not hell, wetherspoons.
I am sure trying to paint my words as Trumpian fascism made sense in your head, but it is frankly a rather weird Interpretation.
Although talking of the Trump playbook, the centrists calling of the poor and the leas fortunate does frequently remind me of Trump mocking disabled veterans.
I can't edit my post now, the quotes and formatting is messed up, but it should be quite obvious what I mean.
yes making sure that minimum wage work pays enough to live on is a priority for me too.
Unemployed people with more than 2 kids not so much.
What would you increase the minimum wage to and how do you think that would work out? Let's make it £25 per hour, what are all the things that happen economically when you do that?
And try to remember, the 3rd and 4th kids haven't decided to be born into poverty but they are in it anyway. People are unemployed with more than two kids for many reasons but the reasons are irrelevant as regards to any cap, the cap is simply making the kids lives worse (those kids who will become the adults in the country sometime soon)
Kerley - its not just unemployed. Its child benefit paid to all. Its in work benefits. its tax credits. all affected by the 2 child cap
Except in this case there is nothing to agree with. I didn’t actually say that anyone to the right of Marx is Tory-lite, so what are they agreeing with? Nothing.
They were presumably liking the post because it was seen as having a dig at someone. It’s basically primary school politics, never mind the 6th form.
The only one acting like a child here is you Ernie. You’ve picked one sentence from a rather lengthy post and decided that’s what it is that everyone is liking. I’ll go out on a limb here and say you’re wrong. In fact I know you are because I’m one of the people that liked his post and it had nothing to do with you and the Tory-lite bit. Perhaps go back and read the entire post and have a think about why people might have given it a like that wasn’t anything to do with you.
Yes, well aware of that. I was directly responding to the comment made about unemployed peoples kids not 'deserving' it. Likewise, if minimum wage was £25 per hour then no doubt a lot less people would be claiming it but minimum wage is another discussion and in this case I would guess being used as a diversion.
This thread is a shit show, and I'm not seeing any winners.
Anyone on the left thought there may actually be more to it than just waving a magic wand and saying make it so. Even the Tories had woken up to the fact that the child benefit rules were grossly unfair based on the income of the highest earner. Just maybe they want to resolve that and base the threshold on household income, maybe at the same time help fund the cap removal by reducing the income threshold to say £60k, does a household with a £60k gross income really need child benefit. Any I imagine there's work to be done behind the scenes to make sure the mechanisms can be put in place to make it all work and I doubt they want to reduce the threshold weeks into their tenure.
They can't do everything all at once and have already shown they actually do have a plan unlike Rishi and I haven't heard much moaning about what they have announced so far.
Lefties you lost (actually you were never in it to win it in the first place as there was no credible party standing with your views) get over it. You sound like whiny teenagers just looking for an argument, just like the 7 grand standing MPs who are now suspended.
As above every debate just get bombed into submission and if you think the dirty centrists are now pretty intolerant I wonder why, maybe it's the constant and unproductive repetition of the same old cliches. We all have a world we like to live in, unfortunately that's not the one that challenges us everyday.