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Both Nigel Farage's and Labour's prognosis seems remarkably similar.
Whilst we may disagree on a lot, I hope we can both agree that Starmer won the last GE on borrowed votes, and he's now acting like he has a real mandate to sit on the fence, in perpetuity.
The question now, if Starmer fails to stand up, is, who will fill the vaccum?... and I suspect that will be mostly reform.
I also hope, I am very, very wrong.
How is sorting out the broken driving test system “performative”? It’s just cleaning up the mess.
SEN provision and demand for it is an entirely different issue to mental health diagnosis, especially as regards fitness for work.
On renewable energy, both Miliband and Starmer have been defending the accelerated shift to it, this week.
How is sorting out the broken driving test system “performative”? It’s just cleaning up the mess.
SEN provision and demand for it is an entirely different issue to mental health diagnosis, especially as regards fitness for work.
On renewable energy, both Miliband and Starmer have been defending the accelerated shift to it, this week.
To play devils advocate..., IMO, that's just 'bread and butter work' they should be doing anyway, it's what their job is. It's why they get paid very well, and with a gold-plated retirement package most of us can only dream of.
There should be no 'fanfair' for this kind of thing... it's the bare minimum, and I think we should expect a little bit more than the bare minimum from MP's.
Doing the job is all we’ll get. There are no miracles around the corner for the UK. No rabbits to pull out of hats. Just a slow slog ahead.
True.
SEN provision and demand for it is an entirely different issue to mental health diagnosis, especially as regards fitness for work.
Wow, could you really not read the links? Let me help you..... one article says :
The Reform UK leader claimed GPs are over diagnosing adults with mental health problems
The other article says:
The health secretary, Wes Streeting, has said he believes there is an “overdiagnosis” of some mental health conditions.
Did you miss that, or are you seriously suggesting there is no similarities between the comments made by both Wes Streeting and Nigel Farage?
It is obvious to any reasonable person that they are both singing from the same hymn sheet and are attempting to make the same point.
Neither of them are medically qualified btw. But both are attempting to use the claim of "over-diagnosis" to justify restricting spending on mental health.
Did you miss that
No. Next question?
I'd normally give the benefit of doubt... But such poor use of language from Streeting certainly seems to be intended rather than accidental.
For example... I'm well aware I rub people up the wrong way on here sometimes...
...and I'd be a liar if I pretended that I didn't, but then, this is a mountain bike forum, and I'm not getting paid whatever MP's get paid, not even close, and I also don't have the luxury of a platinum plated pension, either.
How are these people even in government? Someone must have voted for them... A lot of people must have voted for them. 😕
I hope we can both agree that Starmer won the last GE on borrowed votes
Well if Starmer did he certainly didn't borrow many votes! Labour actually won the last general election with half a million less votes than they received in the 2019 general election.
If there was one single reason that Labour won the last general election it is that Nigel Farage very effectively split the Tory vote.
Something which Farage wasn't prepared to do in 2019 (when the threat to the failed neoliberal project and hard-right bigotry was very real).
Farage appears to have calculated, correctly it would seem, that Starmer's Labour Party are no threat to his long-term plans.
In fact they are probably an asset.
Did you miss that
No. Next question?
So you chose to ignore the two identical comments which both Wes Streeting and Nigel Farage chose to publicly make.
Well I guess that's one way to deal with it. I reckon Donald Trump would approve of your tactic!
No further questions btw.
So you chose to ignore the two identical comments which both Wes Streeting and Nigel Farage chose to publicly make.
Well I guess that's one way to deal with it. I reckon Donald Trump would approve of your tactic!
No further questions btw.
That's such false equivalence, and you bloody well know it. C'mon... you are better than this!
False equivalence, what on earth are you talking about?! 🤣
False equivalence, what on earth are you talking about?! 🤣
Do I really need to spell it out? I will, anyway...
You are comparing an arguably 'frozen with fear' centrist politician (Starmer) with out-and-out facists such as Farage & Trump.
That's False equivalence.
Starmer should grow a spine and re-join the EU single market and customs union., it would be a massive boost to the UK just by clicking a button. Technicaly clicking two buttons, but whatever.
You are comparing an arguably 'frozen with fear' centrist politician (Starmer) with out-and-out facists such as Farage & Trump.
Eh? I have made no such comparison, you have obviously misread what I wrote. I suggested that Kelvin's "no, next question" tactic was one that Trump would likely approve of. Have you ever seen Trump take questions from the press?
As for your comment, I don't agree at all that Starmer is "frozen with fear", I think that is a ridiculous claim to make. Starmer does what he does, and says what he says, because that's what he is told to do and say by his advisors, frozen with fear doesn't come into it. What do you think he is scared of?
And yes, since you mention it, there are quite a few similarities between some of Starmer's policies and Farage's..... cutting the international aid budget, permanently denying British citizenship to successful asylum seekers, boasting about being tough on immigrants, deregulation/cutting red tape, right-wing economic policies, cuts in benefits, and of course non-existent criticism of Donald Trump.
That's False equivalence.
Reeves is literally out their licking his boots and they are courting the likes of BlackRock.
The UK is literally on the same trajectory.
What's not comparable are the personalities but the politics are both deadly and regressive.
Liberals have found their new play toy of US fascism whilst ignoring the UKs much stealthier descent of cruelty in the name of 'necessary cuts'. which is called DOGE in the US. Ahem.
Starmer is smart enough to realise the UK is much weaker than the USA so can't strut around with the same vile exterior.
People must really hate immigrants a lot to hurt themselves on purpose, as an ironic act of defiance.
Were you not around in June 2016?
my vote was only 'on loan', and if Starmer doesn't get off the fence soon, my vote will go back to either the greens or lib-dems, next opportunity
Same here.
If Starmer doesn't tackle Reform head-on, now, rather than trying to emulate them to keep bigots happy - he can go **** himself as far as my vote is concerned.
Meanwhile - let’s crack down on cyclists - well known menace to society.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/apr/24/death-by-dangerous-cycling-crime-policing-bill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
the two identical comments
Two identical conments...
"I eat babies and lamb"
"I eat lamb"
Uproar about baby eating...
"They're all the same"
Reeves is literally out their licking his boots
Starmer is smart enough to realise the UK is much weaker than the USA
Looks like you understand but pretend not to. Ministers are burning good will at home to try and avoid punitive knee jerk reactions towards the UK from an unstable USA. They won't be thanked for it, not by those that voted for them, not by those that didn't, not by you, not be me... but the reasoning behind their actions is clear. Should they "stand up to" Trump? Wouldn't that be lovely. It's people in manufacturing in the UK they'd be putting at risk though, not their own livelihoods. Not to mention people in war zones.
Meanwhile - let’s crack down on cyclists - well known menace to society.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2025/apr/24/death-by-dangerous-cycling-crime-policing-bill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
"The amendments renew a planned change of the law under the Conservatives that was derailed by the general election."
I am not sure who to thank for these amendments, the Tories or Labour? On the face of it Labour but would Labour have bothered if the amendments didn't meet the approval of the Tory Party and their voters?
And the approval of Nigel Farage's voters as well of course :
Nigel Farage’s Reform UK party to target pro-cycling councils in next year’s local elections
https://road.cc/content/news/farage-target-pro-cycling-councils-local-elections-279295
It seems to me that all right-wing politicians are in agreement over this issue. Although I dare say that Kelvin will tell me that I have got it all wrong and I am making a false equivalence.
my vote was only 'on loan', and if Starmer doesn't get off the fence soon, my vote will go back to either the greens or lib-dems, next opportunity
Same here.
If Starmer doesn't tackle Reform head-on, now, rather than trying to emulate them to keep bigots happy - he can go **** himself as far as my vote is concerned.
He lost mine over his stupid adhetence to a hard brexit and gaslighting over it and the two child benefit cap
Looks like you understand but pretend not to. Ministers are burning good will at home to try and avoid punitive knee jerk reactions towards the UK from an unstable USA. They won't be thanked for it, not by those that voted for them, not by those that didn't, not by you, not be me... but the reasoning behind their actions is clear. Should they "stand up to" Trump? Wouldn't that be lovely. It's people in manufacturing in the UK they'd be putting at risk though, not their own livelihoods. Not to mention people in war zones.
I dunno Man. You extrapolate all of this and I just think they have no plan - just reactions. They can't stand up to Trump. Not gonna happen. Actually it's not me putting that out there - it is very much the Liberal knee-jerk boycotting consensus that I keep reading about; that all of a sudden you pull out the sticker 'fascist' and suddenly the USA has become a bad lad? Really?
I have no problems pragmatically with the the UK trading with other countries including the US (Let's face it human rights records and such issues have been normalised with many countries. Giving the US as a whole a difficult time with Trump in charge - not worth the effort. It's temporary anyway. USA has always been an aggressor. )
For the record - I won't be boycotting the USA and will still be taking a trip there - I can straddle what I believe is a fantastic country to explore - blighted by terrible politics and inequalty. But that is nothing new with the USA - that would be my beef with this debate.
I just don't like the constant straddling of ideals which you have confusingly explored.
What I have an issue with is going to the states begging for £££. They just need to do investment here. Everyone's happy.
P.S Starmer burnt all his goodwill ages before Trump came on line. He simply has not done the things the UK needs. There is no strategy here.
For the record - I won't be boycotting the USA and will still be taking a trip there
A different thread, but I won’t be going to the US because I don’t want to risk ending up in jail. A small risk maybe, but I spent many years there and I’m willing to bet that some of what I did would not be viewed sympathetically by the Tangerine in Chief.
my vote was only 'on loan', and if Starmer doesn't get off the fence soon, my vote will go back to either the greens or lib-dems, next opportunity
ah , the purity test . The curse of the left.
Should they "stand up to" Trump? Wouldn't that be lovely. It's people in manufacturing in the UK they'd be putting at risk
Not standing up to trump guarantees UK jobs are at risk, that's the whole point, Trump is trying to force the rest of the world to give up jobs and move manufacturing to the US, any "deal" done with him will sacrifice UK jobs. The less risk is the ROTW standing up to him to accelerate the US themselves giving him the boot. But the rest of the world needs to stand together, individual capitulation weakens everybody.
Failing to stand up to fascist bully's isn't pragmatism, it isn't protecting jobs, democracy and the economy, it is allowing the facist bully to win, and it is cowardice.
ah , the purity test . The curse of the left.
Ah preach capitulation to the fascists and attack the left, the MO of the centrists.
And if anyone wants a realistic path back to the eu...
Carney is advocating for a Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand free trade and mobility zone in the Canadian election. Starmer should go full bore for that.
Then in a few years, negotiate a customs union between the EU and the new free trade zone.
Then a few years after that look at merging the 2 into an expanded single free trade and mobility zone.
That would be a far better tactic than kowtowing to the US.
But the rest of the world needs to stand together, individual capitulation weakens everybody.
I agree with you on that.
Starmer has a huge issue here. A US trade deal requires us to accpt US beef and chicken. If he does so the deal with the EU on food standards becomes impossible.
He is going to have to choose one out of two
They'll be no wide ranging UKUSA trade deal. There will be cars for cars. Little else.
Agri & food can't be squared, for the reasons you state.
Pharma... too expensive to remove the way NHS buys in.
And if anyone wants a realistic path back to the eu...
Carney is advocating for a Canada, UK, Australia and New Zealand free trade and mobility zone in the Canadian election. Starmer should go full bore for that.
Then in a few years, negotiate a customs union between the EU and the new free trade zone.
Then a few years after that look at merging the 2 into an expanded single free trade and mobility zone.
That would be a far better tactic than kowtowing to the US.
thats certainly the next best option assuming rejoining the eu isn’t going to happen
ah , the purity test . the curse of the left.
Ah preach capitulation to the fascists and attack the left, the MO of the centrists.
Actually nickc was attacking a comment originally made by a self-identified centrist claiming that their vote was only on loan to Labour.
Starmer......so bad that he is even causing divisions among centrists.
Starmer......so bad that he is even causing divisions among centrists.
Hardly a surprise. I doubt even the most enthusiastic Starmer fans expected him to jump on Trump and Farage's reactionary fascist bandwagon. Starmer was supposed to be the flag waver of metropolitan liberal grown-ups, not slackjawed yokels from the fens.
Farage's reactionary fascist bandwagon
Is that the new name for the Brexit Bandwagon?
Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal
The source added that ministers wanted "to ensure the public is kept better informed about the number of foreign criminals awaiting deportation, where they are from and the crimes they have committed".
But what was clear was that the policy had provided “legal framing” for the longstanding, xenophobic public discourse that had falsely sought to link immigration to crime. “The issue with these changes is that it perpetuates the problematic perception that ancestry and ethnicity play a role in determining criminality,” he said.
Indeed. And apparently the foundations were laid down by another UK Prime Minister:
The roots of these changes can be traced back partly to the early 2000s when the UK government – led at the time by Tony Blair – began casting citizenship as a privilege rather than a right, said Christian Joppke, a sociology professor at the University of Bern.
Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal
Bullshit. We're in no position to be choosy after Brexshit.
The new Labour buzz-line is.
"All options are on the table."
Starmer kept going on about it with British Steel and now Nandy with the TV license.
This is the new marketing gambit for - "we don't know what we are doing." What are all the options then please?
Vague, fence-sitting Tory speak.
I think this piece demonstrates exactly where we are with politics.
Just about everything we discuss is reflected here in Runcorn and Helsby as Bastani goes on mic rove.
It really doesn't take a logical leap to understand people want stuff fixing and making better and then the immigration issue will likely subdue.
That could still take ages but would be a half-decent coherent plan.
But that would be ideologically at odds with the three main parties now.
It really doesn't take a logical leap to understand people want stuff fixing and making better and then the immigration issue will likely subdue.
There is a reason why reform and the tories are keen on the immigration issue. It is a handy thing to blame for their (lets face it reform policies are tory) policies which have wrecked the UK. The problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of our assets to sell on the cheap and the rental bill comes due.
Problem is the labour right are equally keen on Thatcherism but slightly (although only slightly nowadays) squeamish about blaming immigration and havent found another good candidate yet aside from the side game in blaming all that evil redtape from keeping the housing companies from building enough.
Reevrs in an interview seems to have stated Europe is more important than the US in terms of our trade and there have been noises about not lowering standards so looks like there willbe no US deal
Bullshit. We're in no position to be choosy after Brexshit.
We can have only one of the two. A deal with thr EUon mutual recognition on food standards or a trade deal with the US. They are mutually incompatible
We gotta break this cycle.
Market doesn't deliver - government doesn't want to spend in any meaningful way. Voters blame migrants. New right-wing government elected to solve this.
Back to start.
That trade deal stuff will be interesting if (probably when) Reform do very well in the locals and probably win Runcorn too.
Then Morgan "Don't upset the racists" McSweeney will be bleating on again despite Labour being 3 or 2 times more likely to lose votes to Libdem or Green (respectively) than Reform. Unfortunately the survey that found those stats didn't seem to pay any regard to where those things would happen in terms of constituencies.
Then Morgan "Don't upset the racists" McSweeney will be bleating on again despite Labour being 3 or 2 times more likely to lose votes to Libdem or Green (respectively) than Reform.
This is true although according to most opinion polls it is the Greens who out of the two have seen the greatest increase in support since the general election.
If correct support for the Greens is almost double what it was in the general election whilst support for the LibDems hasn't increased much more than a couple of percent.
What will help Starmer/McSweeney will be the likely false comfort of Labour actually increasing their number of council seats in the local elections.
The last time those seats were up for grabs was 2021 when the Tories were riding very high and Labour only received 30% of the vote. With the Tory vote now deeply split with Reform UK it is likely going to help Labour win quite a few seats
The Runcorn by-election result will be harder for Starmer/McSweeney to explain and I fully expect them to double down on the racist dog-whistling, that is the usual reaction to a far-right threat.