I make no apology for not seeing it that way.
I made some quite reasonable caveats in my posts, and the avoidance of doubt I am voting Labour for precisely some of the reasons that you raise. The question asked was 'in what way will Labour cost you more?', so I answered.
I do not think for one minute that I should impose my views on others as being unequivocally correct, or ridicule an alternative perspective. I don't expect everybody to agree (what dull place the world would be were that the case!), but there are ways of disagreeing that add rather than detract from one's argument, and that isn't always the case on here. STW does have something of a reputation for being the domain of the occasional troll.
I've restrained from posting on these political threads up to now, but oh how I wish I'd had the time to compose and post as eloquently as @solarider above.
Blimey, another free member.
It's a shame this election is so boring we've decided to go back and discuss who we should have voted for in past elections.
School Fees is interesting, our kids went to private schools and we paid (not grandparents or anything) – feels to me you’re choosing something you can’t afford if £5k is your “entire disposable income”.
And based on the increases in school fees over the years, they’ve gone up by far more than average wage inflation (looking at the prices now for where we sent ours), how long will you actually be able to afford to do it anyway?
To answer your specific questions. As I outlined, we make sacrifices to pay the fees. It's not that we can't afford it. More that we choose not to spend money on certain other things instead. If we didn't think it was worth the sacrifice, we wouldn't do it. Please re-read my post. I am fundamentally in favour of a strong state education system and would not be making the sacrifice if I didn't feel i had to.
Your judgement of my level of affordability is based on your own perspective, but please don't worry for us. At the point it all becomes too much, we will be instantly £20,000 a year better off, the independent school industry (let's not forget it employs lots of people BTW) will be £20,000 worse off, the Labour government will lose the £5,000 in VAT that they have banked on from our fees, and our local comprehensive school will have 1 more pupil to educate in their already struggling infrastructure. That really doesn't sound like the win/win that it is meant to be to me.
Your second comment refers to the concept of the boiling frog (bear with me here!). You are right, school fees have slowly and steadily increased at a higher rate than inflation for a number of years. In effect, the temperature of the water that the frog is sitting in has gradually increased. What we are considering here is a sudden increase of 20%, like dunking the frog into suddenly and significantly hotter water. Whilst the frog may sit happily in the gradually increasing temperature, it will jump out of the suddenly hotter water. 50,000 frogs all at once is quite a lot!
No one had this on their 2024GE bingo card
https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1799063975197552846
I heard Rishi’s sorry/not sorry non-apology before. As usual he sounded tetchy as the little brat he clearly is and just kept repeating ‘this schedule was put in place weeks ago’ to the Sky News interviewer, who then ended the interview with the (accurate) statement ‘you sound more irritated than apologetic Prime Minister’
They then cut straight to the clip of one of the veterans saying Sunak had let the country down
He just doesn’t get it, does he?
It's a shame for the Tories that "Labour is riddled with anti-semitism" is so last general election.
But I guess that when things are this desperate anything is worth a punt.
Keir Starmer is surrendering to Jihad
Apparently.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/07/labours-palestinian-state-is-a-gift-to-jihad/
the Labour government will lose the £5,000 in VAT that they have banked on from our fees
Unless you choose to spend that 20k on any other VAT-able business or product.
50,000 frogs all at once is quite a lot!
It is, and I'm not underestimating the impact or being dismissive, but the capacity issue might not be as dramatic as it was 10 years ago. London, for example, just had a drop of 4,000 in the number of secondary school slots required.
Could this finally be a Brexit benefit?
just kept repeating ‘this schedule was put in place weeks ago’ to the Sky News interviewer
Why was that in place before the election decision was made?
Either they were lining up press for a routine chit chat instead of the remembrance event in France
or
He is lying.
And @solarider - thank you for your honesty. Always good to be reminded of others views, even when I don't share the same views.
@Solarider, thanks for your contributions and putting your side across so eloquently. It is a brave thing to do when 99% of people are against the party you align to.
But ‘in what way will Labour cost you more?’ is slightly missing the point as surely it's more appropriate to ask "what unpopular decisions do Labour have to make to make this country a better place to be, which may cost me more but are wholly down to the last 14yrs of Conservative rule, of which i voted for?"
You blame Labour for making these choices but if they weren't given the sh*tty end of the stick they wouldn't be in this position to begin with.
Unless you choose to spend that 20k on any other VAT-able product.
Are coke a hookers vatable now? What has the world come to?!
Nope, we will choose instead to put it away for a rainy day and for solarider jnr's future. We see the current investment in school fees as just that - an investment in his future. We won't simply spend that money. We will put it into a tax free investment, making the rich richer, whilst still depriving the Labour government of its VAT and ensuring that the inequality gap continues for generations to come.
Furthermore, the £20,000 that I deprive the independent school sector of might mean that the business (because that's what it is, right? Isn't that precisely why VAT should be paid?) has to make somebody redundant. It might not be a teacher. It might be one of the support, or admin or other staff. That person will then require unemployment benefit, stop paying tax and national insurance and become a burden on that state far greater than the VAT that has been lost.
For the avoidance of doubt, that is an intentionally provocative post for effect, but hopefully you can see my point?
And for what it is worth, as a firm believer in state funded education and healthcare, I am an equally firm believer that those with the broadest shoulders should take the weight when it comes to funding that state system. But there is a limit anybody's shoulders and it does feel like those with truly abnormally wide shoulders seem to somehow avoid their responsibility whilst those of us with marginally broader shoulders than the rest have to carry everything.
And about private schools and cost - I bet that we
a) won't see an overnight 50k kids looking for state school places and
b) a middle-class fuelled mini-housing boom in places with good schools instead, displacing poorer families. I have neighbours who are open about the fact that they left London to find the 'best rated school in the UK' and therefore could afford a nice big house instead of school fees and London house prices. (IT Contractor, natch). They are one of many. Dunblane High is currently undersubscribed, so the first few families moving here are guaranteed a place...
We will put it into a tax free investment, making the rich richer, whilst still depriving the Labour government of its VAT and ensuring that the inequality gap continues for generations to come.
It is all good. I am reliably informed you wealthy lot will pay £2k a year more tax if Labour get in, reducing your disposable income..
Nope, we will choose instead to put it away for a rainy day and for solarider jnr’s future
At which point you/they may spend it on VAT-able products? (or C+H obvs)
As usual he sounded tetchy as the little brat he clearly is and just kept repeating
He wouldnt do well on just a minute. He seems to memorise a few lines and then just trots them out repeatedly in varying combinations.
The "schedule was already set" really needed the follow up question "why?"
Would be be okay for him to skip it if he wasnt in election mode?
A short humour break if I may..
Only it is close to truth.
🙁
https://twitter.com/Parody_PM/status/1798795498440311211
https://twitter.com/Parody_PM/status/1798795498440311211
Don't worry Rishi
We'll do a mini reset get some snaps of you with some adorable kids at a school
Completely distract from all that D-Day stuff
https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1799071328567505041
It must be noted A levels are harder in the state sector. Cambridge International, the exam board adopted by the independent sector, allows for units to be re-sat to improve grades, Gove abolished that in the state sector. When one of our mob was up for his medical school interviews there were loads of kids from the private sector, he didn't see many of them when term started.
There is definitely a plant in cchq, that street name cannot be a coincidence
The teachers employed in private schools would be working in state schools in private schools didn't exist.
I think that the parents intent on their kids being privileged (insert Molgrip's favourite insult here) 🙂 will find the cash and the 50 000 figureis bollocks. Bookmark the page and we'll see.
It only requires a fair and progressive tax system and there will be more than enough money to provide an excellent education for all in well-maintained state schools.
The UK has a tax system that means those with the most wealth and income don't pay nearly enough tax. The Tory party has rigged it. The poorest families have to pay VAT on their kids' pens and pencils which is more of a hardship than VAT on entirely unnecessary private education.
Perhaps if the rich had to use the same schools, hospitals, dentists, doctors... as the rest of us they'd less against paying the tax needed to raise standards of service.
Let's not lose sight of the issues of the day (and BTW another nail in the coffin of me voting Conservative).
Despite appearances to the contrary, Rishi is not a dictator. There is a massive team behind this campaign who thought that the decision not to stand shoulder to shoulder with the leaders of the free world on what will probably be the final significant anniversary of one of the greatest sacrifices in living memory to be attended by people who were actually there was less important than an ITV interview for an election that is already lost. It is a miracle that so many were there this time, but they surely won't be there for the 90th anniversary? And not supporting them was less important than an ITV interview in which he would only come across as out of touch anyway? He has followed Boris's strategy of avoiding the media for 2 years, and now he is finally more visible you have to say it was probably a good plan!
Not only does this reflect poorly on Rishi, but the entire Conservative Election Team. Did nobody think this was a bad idea?! Who the hell are his advisors?! These events aren't impromptu gatherings of random old mates. Every second, every media moment, every gesture is carefully orchestrated months in advance. This didn't happen by accident. It was a pre-determined judgement call and the decision was taken that election media was more important than taking just 2 days off to reflect on an event which (literally) moved me to tears. They handed the opportunity to Starmer on a plate who of course didn;t miss his opportunity for photos with Zelensky and Biden whilst Rishi was on a helicopter thinking of his next truth stretching statistic.
It is not lost on me that Joe Biden, who is also facing a massive election found the time to cross the Atlantic and attend in person. And to rub salt in the wound, the architect of the biggest 2 fingered salute to the free and democratic Europe that D-Day helped to save (David Cameron) stood in for him instead. It truly defies belief. They have made themselves unelectable. Might as well hold the vote tomorrow before Farage gets too much more support.
@solarider if you’re struggling to find the extra £400 a month for your kids school fees after the election have you considered working harder or finding a higher paid job? That’s the usual tory solution isn’t it?
His next job could be in cyber
I sort of sympathise - but the £20k you are currently spending on fees could buy an awful lot of private tuition (should they need it) if your children were forced back into the state schools. And also fund a better university experience.
Let’s not lose sight of the issues of the day (and BTW another nail in the coffin of me voting Conservative).
*snip*
They have made themselves unelectable. Might as well hold the vote tomorrow before Farage gets too much more support.
Well said.
And the 'apology' that it was organised weeks ago is bigger BS. Is he just going freelance or has anyone in the huge tory election system not told him to calm down, step back and think for a moment?
I'm not the first person on the thread to suggest this series of gaffs is being orchestrated by forces within the Tory party to get rid of Rishi. And he's failed to see he's being set up to fall. The alternative being he's planning all these gaffs himself for reasons known only to himself.
Shit, I'm back on the election thread, drawn in by elitist bollocks about private schools. I'd shut the lot and turn them into centers for refugees.
*dips out again*
Twitter is quite worth spending some time with today.......can't help but think Sunak is toast
I’m not the first person on the thread to suggest this series of gaffs is being orchestrated by forces within the Tory party to get rid of Rishi.
He's out at the next election anyway, so why bother? At this point he's as good a person as any to take the blame.
Suspect this doesn't affect many on here directly, but if you know anyone who wants to vote without a fixed address and feels they are disenfranchised.....
Its odd.
His manoeuvring to increase his power as chancellor after accepting it when Javid walked away rather than be controlled by Cummings and co indicate some political skill. As does his careful planning around when to knife Johnson without being the knifer in chief but it appears to vanish entirely once he deals with anyone but tory mps/officials.
Hemel Hempsted: Tory MP has pulled out at the very last minute (no explanation, but assume skeleton in his closet about to emerge) so theyve signed up a local councilor
doesn’t that just end up as “the poor are lazy” ?
The trouble with that sort of straw manning is it convinces no one to listen to a valid argument.
I try to take a balanced view on these things and see both sides. And explained it to my politically uninterested nephew last week (who can vote but doesn't) how it's supposed to work. It is possible to frame both ideologies in a positive way and then let people make up their mind based on either which argument they agree with or which political party just does things more competently.
Left of center -
The rich pay pay taxes which pay for a bus lane which brings people to their business, therefore they make more money overall.
The poor have access to a bus which get's them to work, therefore they make more money.
Right of center -
The rich pay less taxes and no bus lane is built. Therefore they have more money.
The poor pay less taxes therefore have more money in their pocket to buy a car and don't need the bus.
Substitute in education, defense, health care or whatever you like into the analogy as appropriate.
It's entirely valid to extend that analogy at the moment and say that the Tories are actually spending money on busses but the bus company is owned by their mate and doesn't have any busses and the staff are all on strike because they've not had a fair pay deal in a decade so no one is benefitting. And that should be enough to convince you to vote for something else even if you are philosophically right of center.
The “schedule was already set” really needed the follow up question “why?”
No, the follow-up should've been a statement, "Oh, you were never going to stay..." and be silent.
It's an interesting thought experiment to think about what might happen if Sunak resigns before the election. Presumably the tories would have to install an emergency interim leader. But who? Morduant is almost certainly going to lose her seat, Hunt and Shapps are also on the at risk list. The only other one I can think of is Cameron. At least he can't be kicked out of parliament but I doubt he wants it. Actually maybe he does and that's why he didn't stop Sunak buggering off to do his interview? Him coming to the rescue to rebuild whatever's left would allow the centrists to regain control of the party in much the same way as Starmer did with labour. I can't image having a lord as leader of the opposition is going to work though for obvious reasons.
I can’t image having a lord as leader of the opposition is going to work though for obvious reasons.
It's convention that the PM is an MP, but not essential. So I can't see why a Lord couldn't be leader of the opposition.
The pragmatic solution is to get an MP in a safe seat to quit and hold a by-election, although that's probably easier said than done when there might not be all that many safe seats and you've lost your leverage of being able to make them a peer in return.
that hemel hempstead candidate..
https://twitter.com/tomorrowsmps/status/1799088558994776191
actually a shame this didnt come out after 4pm then they'd have to expell him but keep him on the ballot, in that rarest of things, a safe Tory seat!
get the popcorn out for othe candidates being outed over the weekend
The pragmatic solution is to get an MP in a safe seat to quit and hold a by-election
He'd have to renounce his peerage before he could be elected as an MP. I doubt he would want to do that as it gets him invited to all sorts of nice parties.
Just came here to post the same pic as Kimbers. Twitter is brutal today and deservedly so.
The immediate interest for me is how tonitghts debate plays out........How does Sunak handle that? Is it just more hectoring and truculence? How can his spads possibly give him any kind of playbook?
