MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I reckon he’d bring in some policies much to the left of where Starmer currently is.
I struggle to believe that although I have to confess that I don't really follow what Farage says about anything much. The little that I hear him say is invariably, imo, bollocks.
Although as I said earlier that my heart sank this afternoon when I realised that I was agreeing with his comments about PR and the House of Lords, and how it was the sort of thing that Starmer should be talking about. Do you mean that?
Quite amusing if farage splits the Tory vote & gifts Clacton to Labour
Well of course that's what we would expect but the tracker suggests that if the Reform vote increases a large number comes from Labour. Not as many as Tory but enough to prevent a Labour win.
What’s your reasoning behind that?
Hitler gave us the Volkswagen.
Mussolini made the trains run on time.
Umm...
Not sure if it’s been posted but I’ve just read the Rory Stewart article in the Guardian here that was posted on another forum (yeah……there’s actually “other” forums out there) and it’s hard to argue against what he writes
if the Reform vote increases a large number comes from Labour.
Well Reform support has trebled in the last year whilst Labour support has remained fairly stable, if anything it has slightly increased.
So I would be genuinely interested in how that conclusion has been arrived.
I went to meeting in the same building as the Tory Party Campaign HQ, about 2 months back.
Ohhh to have to opportunity to go there again and knock on their door and stick my head around, and offer a voter's 'assessment' 🤣🤣🤣
The politically engaged. There's something about the demographic I can't quite put my finger on!
somafunk
Full Member
Not sure if it’s been posted but I’ve just read the Rory Stewart article in the Guardian here that was posted on another forum (yeah……there’s actually “other” forums out there) and it’s hard to argue against what he writes
A good read but how to correct all these short comings?
(Obviously it's a book excerpt so he probably does have some ideas!)
There’s something about the demographic I can’t quite put my finger on!
Was just going to type that till i realised you already had.
Thing is, I bet most of them go weeks at a time without meeting anyone even remotely "foreign" yet they consider it the defining issue of our time. I'll never get it.
Jesus that photo is depressing
The first image from google search with a crowd for a Labour love-in was slightly better but was still dominated by people who looked thrilled to be out of the care home for the day!
Love the little caption the Beeb have put at the bottom. 👍😁Lol, I did have a chuckle at that headline.
Thing is, I bet most of them go weeks at a time without meeting anyone even remotely “foreign” yet they consider it the defining issue of our time. I’ll never get it.
They are either just racists or they have so little to worry about/prioritise in their lives that immigration seems a priority for them - or probably both of those things.
How may radios and TVs will get broken now Farage is on them full time?
On Radio4 at the mo.
The anger (on my part) comes from the fact he's damn good at what he does when given a platform... he's still more threat than joke.
Depends what your issues with Labour are. You vote for the person not the party and there are a number of left wing Labour candidates around. Also lots in support of Gaza. If you have one then you are in a great position as they will have some influence on the party likely to be in power.
Each of us only has one person to vote for, who (or more accurately, which Party) are these people who've an 'issue' with Labour/Starmer over Gaza going to vote for?
The anger (on my part) comes from the fact he’s damn good at what he does when given a platform… he’s still more threat than joke.
love him or loathe him, its hard to deny he's been one of the most influential political characters of the last decade or so.
I'd love to know what vote share the greens might be on if they were given the airtime that farage is awarded. The airwaves would be a nicer place too
love him or loathe him,
Hang on , give me a minute.... I think I'll go with "loathe"
love him or loathe him, its hard to deny he’s been one of the most influential political characters of the last decade or so.
I’d say the most influential by miles. He’s scared the Tories into the referendum then won it for Leave, the Tory party has now been purged of all moderates and is just a 2nd rate UKIP/Reform tribute act and he could be about to completely destroy ‘the natural party of government.
All without ever being elected or having to shoulder the burden of the realities of anything
Power without responsibility is a nice position to be in.
Like Boris and Gove with Brexit, he’ll be hoping for glorious defeat by as narrow a margin as possible.
He’s no interest in the mundane day-to-day realities of dealing with constituents problems, just as Boris and Gove had no interest in actually delivering Brexit.
In the unlikely event he’s actually elected, I’ll imagine he’ll be about as chuffed as these two were about the ‘victory’
its hard to deny he’s been one of the most influential political characters of the last decade or so.
Which is a depressing thought if you're comparing him to more mainstream politicians, who should by rights easily knock everything he says into next week, shouting 'four' every time. That they can't; speaks volumes.
chestercopperpot
There’s something about the demographic I can’t quite put my finger on!
They're all ****s?
There’s something about the demographic I can’t quite put my finger on!
Ah fingers. That's it. Have you counted them?
Looks like Nige isn’t really a details man. Who’d have thunk it?
https://Twitter.com/livefrombrexit/status/1797898848255492135?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
Cleverlys involuntary smirk/eyeroll when McVey's name is read out on list of MPs to lose their seats is priceless (10 seconds in). Gets funnier every time you watch it.
https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1797883628384391667?t=6Gb3O1o3PfO227_SASnkpg&s=19
its hard to deny he’s been one of the most influential political characters of the last decade or so.
I don't think Nigel Farage is anywhere near as influential as some people, including obviously himself, like to think.
I don't understand why despite intense efforts his clear and very long inability to win a seat in the House of Commons is dismissed as unimportant with regards to assessing his popularity.
The whole claim appears to be based solely on the premise that the UK would have voted for remain in the EU if it hadn't been for Nigel Farage's enormous influence. And yet he didn't even that much of a prominent role in referendum campaign. I associate Boris Johnson more with the Leave campaign, and Johnson only decided a few weeks before the vote which way he was going.
And yet he didn’t even that much of a prominent role in referendum campaign.
I think it was the years of stoking anti EU sentiment before that that was important and his popularity might have pushed the Tory party towards the referendum in the first place.
Looks like Nige isn’t really a details man. Who’d have thunk it?
More than that he doesn't seem to agree with his own party's policies.
Which should come as no surprise - Nigel Farage has a long history of confessing, quite correctly, that the policies that he espouses are drivel:
Nigel Farage: 2010 UKIP manifesto was 'drivel'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25879302
there would not have been a referendum without him
That claim is based on what evidence exactly?
I’d love to know what vote share the greens might be on if they were given the airtime that farage is awarded. The airwaves would be a nicer place too
Greens might have played a blinder in our constituency, candidate has exactly the same name as the conservatives, even if the same % of voters on either side make a mistake the Greens will have a net gain 😀
Seems like the peoples vote are also active to try and keep the cons out, even though it's a new constituency.
Do you mean that?
Not really. I don't have any specific policies in mind, just that all his rhetoric yesterday of politics not working for normal people (the white male ones at least) would require some form of reform to hand power back and/or do some stuff to keep the proles happy. Like Johnson I think he has little interest in the 'rules' of fiscal management and would splash the cash on pet projects and other stuff irrespective of whether it was affordable or not.
Nicely summed up by Malcolm Tucker…
https://Twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1797896824583315470?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
I don’t think Nigel Farage is anywhere near as influential as some people, including obviously himself, like to think.
UKIP got more votes than the Lib Dem in the 2015 election (12% of the electorate) making it the third party on vote count. That it failed to get a single MP is a system failure rather than a measure of UKIPs (and undoubtedly Farage's, as who can name a single other UKIP candidate?) unpopularity. He was ranked in the top 5 right winger by the Telegraph about the same time, and was Briton of the year (or some such nonsense) in a poll in the Times.
There's no doubt in my mind that if you asked the average punter on the street to name a popular right wing politician, a good percentage would be able to name him above say Oliver Dowden (officially the deputy PM) or Victoria Atkin (who's the Health Minister, in case you've never heard of her)
Anyway, getting back to actual political parties with actual policies, time to get those tiny violins out again…
https://Twitter.com/jamesdaustin/status/1797871343003717847?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
It's great how everyone on this thread is celebrating the lack of real power of Farage and Reform UK. Probably worth pointing out again that the only thing guaranteeing that persists is first past the post. PR would hand him enough seats to be the third party and potentially the official opposition. This is the one thing he craves more than anything else so I continue to be baffled why almost all of his pro-EU opponents want to give him it? 🤷♂️
time to get those tiny violins out again…
No waitrose where they live? Seems like they can solve all the problems at once. Move near a waitrose and chances are there will be a good school there.
You’re wasted on here @dissonance. You should move to Tufton Street and set up a thinktank 😂
Another amusing Tweet from this morning, because we were all thinking it…
https://Twitter.com/aiannucci/status/1797895746873958620?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
PR would hand him enough seats to be the third party and potentially the official opposition.
And yet, there's a good proportion of folks on here that think introducing PR would be a good idea...What's that expression about the dangers of getting what you ask for?
PR would mean that the Tories would never hold power again.
I also believe that Reform would fade away as people got sick of their shite.
PR would hand him enough seats to be the third party and potentially the official opposition.
Because these parties oxygen comes from the fact they aren't in power.
In countries with PR these parties get seats and sometimes even get to be in a minority government. Once that happens and they actually have to deliver on their promises their 'simple' solutions tend to slam head first into reality.
UKIP and Reform got what they wanted without ever winning a seat. They did this because FPTP means they can complain and play the victim but are never forced to deliver.
dazh
It’s great how everyone on this thread is celebrating the lack of real power of Farage and Reform UK. Probably worth pointing out again that the only thing guaranteeing that persists is first past the post. PR would hand him enough seats to be the third party and potentially the official opposition. This is the one thing he craves more than anything else so I continue to be baffled why almost all of his pro-EU opponents want to give him it? 🤷♂️
I can never figure out why anyone wants PR with that in the background either. At least they'd be out in the open and the Greens would balance them out (a bit)
Once that happens and they actually have to deliver on their promises
They rarely do actually. There's ample evidence that the parties in coalition govts don't get their policies enacted because invariably they have to horse trade with their coalition partners. it's FPTP that results in majority govts who can pass bills - especially in Westminster, as they control the House activity.
And yet, there’s a good proportion of folks on here that think introducing PR would be a good idea
You mean as opposed to now where the tories dance to their command and then labour lurch rightwards after them?
Also the fact a lot of people arent being represented, whether on left or right, is the main problem with FPTP. That never ends well.
Also the fact a lot of people arent being represented, whether on left or right, is the main problem with FPTP.
Hey, I never said that FPTP is what I'd prefer, just that straight PR would see parties like Reform gaining significant power and influence which our current system at least; prevents.
Because these parties oxygen comes from the fact they aren’t in power.
Better for them to have publicity with no power than publicity with power. Allowing Farage to be the main opposition would be an incredibly dangerous experiment which would almost certainly result in him being in govt at some point in the future. I'm sorry the greens are also marginalised but it's a price worth paying to keep Farage away from being able to implement his Trumpist policies.
In the meantime, a lot of people are effectively disenfranchised (though not so much if you live in a Tory 'safe seat' this time) leading to protest voting, and many people have to vote tactically for their least worst option rather than for someone they actually want.
You can argue that he's been remarkably successful at getting what he wants without being elected, and I'm not sure that power without electoral accountability is a great thing either.
"And yet, there’s a good proportion of folks on here that think introducing PR would be a good idea…What’s that expression about the dangers of getting what you ask for?"
Because it would be properly democratic. The Right and Left wing may support a more centrist party on some issues, but the tail would not wag the dog!
interesting that UKIP, reform and the like have never got into the scots parliament which is elected on PR with a 6% ish threshold for seats. funny that. Its almost as if PR forces flok to think about their vote more carefully and stops folk making protest votes
If we had PR for Westminster we would NOT have had all those damaging tory governments and would still be in the EU.
Awkward thing this democracy giving us representative governments unlike FPTP which is not a real democracy and allows majority governments on a minority of the vote and penalizes smaller parties
If we had PR for Westminster we would NOT have had all those damaging tory governments and would still be in the EU.
I see that's my cue to mention Blair reneging on a '97 manifesto commitment to electoral reform (Jenkins Commission recommendation was to introduce AMS as used in Scotland, Wales and many other places)
I’m sorry the greens are also marginalised
If the Greens were at all interested in actually enacting any environmental change they would've merged by now with Labour. Because under our system that's the only way they'd see any chance of doing anything constructive. That they haven't says all I need to know about whether they're either just a protest movement or have ambitions to y'know; achieve anything.
interesting that UKIP, reform and the like have never got into the scots parliament which is elected on PR with a 6% ish threshold for seats.
Not interesting at all as UKIP and reform were/are an unashamed English nationalist party. It's no different to the English gloating about how the SNP or Sinn Fein don't get any seats in England.
Interesting though that many on here are keen to flirt with giving Farage the foot in the door he craves because of idealistic concepts of democracy and representation. Maybe it's just me but I care much more about keeping fascists away from power than making democracy a tiny bit fairer.
They stood in Scotland in some elections. Its not gloating - its countering your daft ideas abourt PR.
At least they’d be out in the open and the Greens would balance them out (a bit)
I'm a small 'd' democrat so I think it's just as unjustifiable that Reform have so few MPs as it is that the Greens are so underrepresented, even though I believe that Reform is a barely disguised ponzi scheme wearing the trappings of a political party.
Screeching from the sidelines without actually ever being responsible for running anything is Farage's whole MO. The purity of opposition is everything to him.
A few people may recall that in the late 2000's early 2010's UKIP went through a phase of winning council seats, almost all their Councillors were ejected after 1 term (if they even lasted that long) as they were generally lazy, ignorant and disinterested in doing the job as it was a lot less fun than 'owning the libs' with all the shouty campaigning.
Their MEP's were just as bad if not worse but they were only there to smash things up and be obnoxious anyway.
Unlike the Tories and Labour, I can't see Reform having many 'safe' seats so when their MP's turn out to be similarly poor at being a community's social worker in chief they are fairly likely to get ejected.
Its almost as if PR forces flok to think about their vote more carefully and stops folk making protest votes
PR encourages copy cat centrist parties that echo each other and make mountains out of minor differences, as partnering centrist parties is always required to get in into power under PR systems. Ending in stale govts that cannot make decisions and break apart forcing multiple election cycles.
Every form of democracy isn't true democracy and has faults.
PR would hand him enough seats to be the third party and potentially the official opposition.
But someone would still need to form a government.....
Labour + Liberals + Greens would tend to be a natural alliance, it might not make everyone happy and that might reduce their vote share but it's a big block of the electorate. It also leaves space for the Labour party to splinter into a Blairite "economically liberally socially democratic" faction, and a traditional Labour party with nationalization etc at it's core.
And you assume the Tory party would survive it any better. You could end up with the sensible Tories (Economically liberal, low taxation and no other ideas) in one party (the Ying to the Labour parties economic Yang) and the absolute headbanging socially conservative nutters who want to re-write the human rights act, equalities act, send people to Rwanda, etc.
With a clean slate and no prejudices (i.e. ignoring the fact he stood no chance of winning anything at that point), if there had been an election after Boris or Liz and if Rishi had won it, but not by a majority, then I suspect he would have rather have entered into an "It's the economy, stupid" coalition with the SNP, Liberals, Greens, whoever else would negotiate with him to keep than the "coalition" he's ended up in having to waste all his meager political capital on Rwanda, National Service and LBGTQ+ rights.
FPTP doesn't give us the governments we vote for. At least PR would tend to give us coalitions based around some consensus and would leave breathing room for small-mid sized parties to actually get their ideas across without being silenced by the centrists.
Maybe it’s just me but I care much more about keeping fascists away from power than making democracy a tiny bit fairer.
No not just you, me too. I'd rather Reform were keep as far for power as is possible thanks.
At least PR would tend to give us coalitions based around some consensus
Yeah a consensus to not do much at all and continue with the status quo, which results in more support for rightwing snake oil salesmen who want us to think it's all the fault of immigrants. At the end of the day, PR would result in Nigel Farage being MUCH more powerful than he currently is. I can't quite believe that people on here who profess to hate everything he stands for want to give him exactly what he wants. It's bonkers!
UKIP polled 14% of the votes cast in a general election, without winning a seat. I don't agree with anything they say, but that smarts against my democratic principles. 1/7 of the electorate disenfranchised straight away.
That X clip above with Farage is illuminating and very well played - he had is ass handed to him.
On PR - I don't think support of PR should come from a place of how it might benefit your own political position, as there will always be a negative for any party - but that's the point. It's not about who gets political benefit, it's about democracy and representation, and as a result, a lot more compromise.
Better for them to have publicity with no power than publicity with power. Allowing Farage to be the main opposition would be an incredibly dangerous experiment which would almost certainly result in him being in govt at some point in the future.
I think you need to go and have a closer look at how countries with PR actually operate. You are currently demonstrating a very limited way of thinking.
At the moment you are taking the way FPTP operates and assuming everything will be exactly the same except with more Reform/Green/etc holding seats.
It's a completely different paradigm and does not work the same way at all. If you are going to continue insisting PR is just FPTP but with smaller parties getting seats then it's going to be really difficult to discuss this with you because, to put it simply, your founding idea is completely wrong.
you may have Reform/brexit party/UKIP but they would loses 5% of their vote to BNP/NF/EDL etc and so on
1/7 of the electorate disenfranchised straight away.
Like I said, that's a (very) small price to keep fascists away from power.
It’s a completely different paradigm and does not work the same way at all.
True, it removes the ability of the electorate to choose their govt and hands it to politicians and party officials to negotiate among themselves what sort of govt they want. PR removes power from voters rather than the opposite.
Labour + Liberals + Greens would tend to be a natural alliance
You'd think. In practice a lot of Lab activists give off the impression they'd rather be in opposition than have to share power with anyone.
Completely agree however that a side effect of PR is likely to be splintering of both main parties.
Like I said, that’s a (very) small price to keep fascists away from power.
I'd argue that disenfranchising people based on their political beliefs IS Fascism.
You’d think. In practice a lot of Lab activists give off the impression they’d rather be in opposition than have to share power with anyone.
If true (maybe it is because they don't believe that the current Labour party is what they would vote for so it doesn't matter if they are in power or not just because they wear the same colour tie), then they wouldn't survive as a party in PR. People would (theoretically, hopefully) vote for parties with smaller more targeted manifestos that can bring something to the negotiating table.
SNP - wants an independence vote, everything else is peripheral, they don't need to be anything else. Makes them more appealing to Scottish conservatives if nothing else.
Green - wants renewables and public transport and active transport, they don't need have a stance on anything else.
Social conservatives
Social progressives/liberals
Parties based on economic policies (Social democrats, centrists, liberals, free market's)
In reality the parities based on economic policies would probably win the biggest shares, and then have to form a coalition with some single-issue parties. Or they form a minority government because they can form individual agreements to get most of their manifesto through with different parties. It's how it ends up working elsewhere.
True, it removes the ability of the electorate to choose their govt and hands it to politicians and party officials to negotiate among themselves what sort of govt they want. PR removes power from voters rather than the opposite.
And if the voters aren't happy with the way they figured it out amongst themselves then the party gets severely punished at the next election.
Afterall, there's nothing stopping voters switching party, is there? Unlike FPTP.
Anyway, you've quite clearly got a single oversimplified idea stuck in your head and no amount of real life examples is going to change your mind so crack on.
1/7 of the electorate disenfranchised straight away.
Interestingly (or not) I've been reading about the Putney Debates - The horse trading that the New Model Army and the Levellers (amongst others) had during the pause in fighting the First and Second Civil War. There's the Levellers saying "Every man should have the vote" and there's Cromwell and Ireton saying "If you give poor people the vote, they'll sell it cheaply to the first man that promises them anything" And lo...Farage
Anyway, you’ve quite clearly got a single oversimplified idea stuck in your head and no amount of real life examples is going to change your mind so crack on.
If you'd lay off the implicit personal insults that you throw around liberally, I'd expect more people would engage you with your input, But y'know; crack on.
Its almost as if PR forces flok to think about their vote more carefully and stops folk making protest votes
That's certainly not been the experience in Australia or Ireland. I don't think voters are consciously changing their voting patterns based on the PR system in place. And UKIP/Reform won't have bothered spending any money or time in Scottish constituencies. The fact they didn't win any seats in one election is too thin to draw any conclusions from.
FPTP which is not a real democracy and allows majority governments on a minority of the vote and penalizes smaller parties
This is absolutely true tho. In Scotland in the 2019 General Election, the SNP got 45% of the votes and got 81% of the seats. Labour got 27% of votes and 1.6% of the seats. The Tories got 25% of votes and 10% of the seats. It's nuts! Glad to see we are agreed that FPTP results in the wild overrepresentation of nationalists at Westminster, and that there should be more Scottish Tory MPs to reflect the will of the people.
To be fair, the demographic is pretty precisely that of the STW frequent posters. Put a few Santa Cruz in the picture and it’s us
To be fair, if the snarky comments are about how overwhelmingly white the crowd is, maybe that's because Skegby* is...overwhelmingly white. The ward is 96.8% white.
It's interesting that none of the STW comments seem to have picked up on the fact that the punters are overwhelmingly middle-aged men.
I can’t quite believe that people on here who profess to hate everything he stands for want to give him exactly what he wants. It’s bonkers!
I think this is understating just how powerful their 'anti-establishment/outsider' image is when it comes to their support.
UKIP polled 14% of the votes cast in a general election, without winning a seat.
All of which helps fuel their overall message of grievance and grievance is by far the most powerful fuel for populist demagogues. This dynamic where they're seen as being 'shut-out' of power by 'the elite' hugely boosts their appeal, the idea that the 'establishment' was somehow anti-Brexit was absolutely crucial to getting it over the line.
What Farage really wants is for the Tories to go down in flames in July, the harder they lose, the more desperate they're going to be and the more likely he's going to be able to walk in there as their shining savior, negotiate from a position of strength, merge them with Reform and take them over.
Tory leader is what he's always wanted to be.
that’s my cue to mention Blair reneging on a ’97 manifesto commitment to electoral reform (Jenkins Commission recommendation was to introduce AMS as used in Scotland, Wales and many other places)
I think you may win a prize for being the first to accuse Blair of breaking a 1997 manifesto promise...and it was actually in the manifesto and he did break it! 🏅
and it was actually in the manifesto and he did break it!
Apparently Jack Straw deserves most of the "credit" for that.
PR encourages copy cat centrist parties that echo each other and make mountains out of minor differences, as partnering centrist parties is always required to get in into power under PR systems.
Have you looked at our FPTP? The difference under PR is the centrists need to negotiate as opposed, as with Starmers labourites, demand that they are completely pandered to.
If you’d lay off the implicit personal insults that you throw around liberally, I’d expect more people would engage you with your input, But y’know; crack on.
There is a really interesting debate to be had on the merits of FPTP vs PR because it's not a simple question and is very much tied up in tradition and culture. Up until fairly recently I would have been arguing strongly in favour of FPTP.
However, if you are going to ignore the actual issues and just call everyone else a hypocrite and bonkers because they don't subscribe to your demonstrably wrong interpretation of PR then you deserve at least a bit of a dig.