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We shouldn’t forget that on the day of the BLM protest in Parliament Square Boris put out 10 tweets encouraging his Pretorian guard of racist football hooligans to come and protect Winston Churchill’s statue, (and to have a punch up with the Police and attack a few black people)
Except one of them was trying to subvert democracy while the other one was protecting a statue.
The bloke sat in Pelosi's office is called Richard Barnett apparently! Seems like a fairly fitting name
"Except one of them was trying to subvert democracy while the other one was protecting a statue."
Except that the statue didn't need protecting as it had been boarded up. His tweets suggested that the Police were incapable of defending Parliament Square and needed the back up of a thug militia.
So I take it that you thought Boris was doing the right thing? You agree with encouraging mob violence?
Except one of them was trying to subvert democracy while the other one was protecting a statue.
In their eyes they were protecting something far more important than a statue though... Viewpoint and context. If you want a statue protected get the correct agencies to do it, not post on Twitter.
The far right seem to have been live streaming their insurrection
Loads of them IDd on twitter, people still trying to claim they were antifa agitators too 🤣🤣
Wonder what the prison sentences will look like?
The USA (inc DC as far as I can tell) has this weird law called 'Felony Murder'. This basically means that if someone is killed as a direct consequence of your actions, you can be help accountable. I learnt about it when a man was found guilty of murder of a person he'd never met / seen / heard of. He didn't stop for police for a drugs stop. The police then killed someone when they jumped a red light giving chase.
I wonder whether the protesters (assuming they committed a crime, which I'm guessing they did, by crossing a police line or unlawfully entering a government building or something) can be on the hook for the murder which happened as a direct result of those actions. It'd be quite satisfying after they displayed their smug faces strolling around the Capitol.
EDIT:
1) I am not the first person to have thought about this
2) It's complicated
3) Probably not gonna happen
I agree they are both right wing populists who appealed to their audience to get on the street. However the difference in seriousness between the the two things is of such an order of magnitude that comparisons are a bit invidious. There is a problem on the internet that if you indulge in too much hyperbole that when the really bad stuff happens you run out of a vocabulary to condemn it. Don’t underestimate the significance of what just happened in Washington. I’m no fan of Johnson, but his actions are nowhere near as bad as Trump’s (so far)
Insurrection can get you a 20 year sentence in the US.
I doubt the judiciary will show any leniency; it's likely the sentences will be at the top end of the sentencing scale.
There are calls in some US media for trump, his namesake son and giuliani to be prosecuted for their blatant incitement on Wednesday; yes, do them.
The brat and giuliani - now; wait until Jan 21 and then go after trump.
It will take some time for the smell of shit to leave the WH.
Will twitter and fb ban trump from their platforms permanently the moment he is no longer president? Here's hoping.
The USA (inc DC as far as I can tell) has this weird law called ‘Felony Murder’. This basically means that if someone is killed as a direct consequence of your actions, you can be help accountable. I learnt about it when a man was found guilty of murder of a person he’d never met / seen / heard of. He didn’t stop for police for a drugs stop. The police then killed someone when they jumped a red light giving chase.
Ladies & gentlemen - I give you the land of the free.
which I’m guessing they did, by crossing a police line or unlawfully entering a government building or something
In an unintentional twist of irony....
"I have authorized the Federal Government to arrest anyone who vandalizes or destroys any monument, statue or other such Federal property in the US with up to 10 years in prison, per the Veteran’s Memorial Preservation Act, or such other laws that may be pertinent.", the president wrote on Twitter.
"This action is taken effective immediately, but may also be used retroactively for destruction or vandalism already caused. There will be no exceptions!"
The brat and giuliani – now; wait until Jan 21 and then go after trump.
Surely we'd need to wait until 21st so Trump doesn't immediately pardon Don Jr and Guiliani? He may still pardon them 'just in case' which apparently he could do.
Of course, he can't pardon anyone if the 25th is invoked...
In an unintentional twist of irony….
Ooooh, that'd be so good. Worth prosecuting using that specific bit of law even if you don't have to!
Facebook has extended the ban on trumps Facebook account indefinitely, 4 years too late im afraid, I wonder if similar bans will be forthcoming from twitter, etc.
Insurrection can get you a 20 year sentence in the US.
I doubt the judiciary will show any leniency; it’s likely the sentences will be at the top end of the sentencing scale.
That prayer for Elizabeth better be good or she will be back on TikTok in tears some more shortly.
Republican Congressman calling for the 25th to be invoked.....
https://mobile.twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1347207878801846276
Trump can issue group pardons even if the individuals are unknown, it's been done before in 1865 so that confederate lawyers could practice in the US.
The 25th will have to be invoked before he gets the chance to do it, it's a race against time and will depend on how much the American establishment want to punish those responsible for the assault on their democracy. If they let Trump get away with it, they might have averted a disaster for now but it would be the the final act in beginning of the erosion of American democracy. Republicans might be blind to that, even if they can see that what happened yesterday was bad.
Imnotverygood,
Democracy dies at the end of a very slippery slope. Or, as Mitch McConell so eloquently put it, "in a death spiral"
So whilst you suggest that I am making a false equivalence due to differences in order of magnitude I can still recognise the similarities with strategy and tactics. Both here and the US we've woken up every day for the last 4 years asking ourselves how much worse can it get? So called 'moderate' conservatives think they can keep a lid on it, somehow controll the madness, limit the excesses etc. When what they are actually doing is enabling.
As are you, when you suggest that Boris's tweeting isn't that serious. (Or dangerous)
Trump can issue group pardons even if the individuals are unknown, it’s been done before in 1865 so that confederate lawyers could practice in the US.
The 25th will have to be invoked before he gets the chance to do it,
"The President" issuing a pardon is only the start of the process - if the process isn't completed and "the President" changes his mind then 'the President' can reverse it. The president issuing the pardon and the one changing their mind can be two different people if the time frame is right
Andrew Johnson pardoned a prisoner towards the end of his term, the prison governor left the letter sitting on his desk for a few days, President Grant withdrew the pardon before it had been enacted.
Issuing pardons so close to the end of his term means there only needs to be one person dragging their heals down the line for the next administration to sweep them all away again.
I could do without any quotes from McConnell; he's been actively working against democracy for years; his only interest is power.
“The President” issuing a pardon is only the start of the process – if the process isn’t completed and “the President” changes his mind then ‘the President’ can reverse it. The president issuing the pardon and the one changing their mind can be two different people if the time frame is right
said Captain Jack Sparrow after drinking the rum
...sorry, just (re)watched POTC with the kids last night...
Republican Congressman calling for the 25th to be invoked…..
https://mobile.twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1347207878801846276/blockquote >
I've been wondering if/when Republicans would turn on him. I don't know if it's because they're trying to balance distancing themselves from a 'dumpster fire' of a President with losing his base, or more simply, because you don't make an enemy of someone like Trump until you know he's beat.
Cheers Mac! Good post.
The video of the woman getting shot is quite amazing, not because of the shooting, but because everything goes on relatively normally around it. There is a guy standing right next to her appearing to text rather that getting the **** out of there. Someone else is standing talking to the person next to them. At what point did someone getting killed next to you while a swat team are coming up the stairs get normalised 🙁
Democracy dies at the end of a very slippery slope. Or, as Mitch McConell so eloquently put it, “in a death spiral”
Don't always agree with you on issues, but yes, Boris' tweets were a low key version of Trump's, and the longer term damage that could do, if not recognised and refuted, were on show last night.
A few of us on here - myself included - have talked/joked about taking to the streets over one issue or another. It's not so funny when you consider where it might lead.
I had to laugh when I saw a picture of a guy with an actual pitchfork in his hand.
The video of the woman getting shot is quite amazing, not because of the shooting, but because everything goes on relatively normally around it. There is a guy standing right next to her appearing to text rather that getting the **** out of there. Someone else is standing talking to the person next to them. At what point did someone getting killed next to you while a swat team are coming up the stairs get normalised
It's because a lot of people don't look at the situation to decide what to do, they look at the reactions of the people around them to know what to do. If you've ever seen a stabbing or a terror event take place, be it in person or a video you might notice that depending on the situation people stand around like tools gawping and wondering what to do until one person pegs it and the rest follow.
It's why I've once had to stop people from walking towards a scene where everyone on the street could quite clearly hear a guy shouting "Alluah Ackbar", making threats and swearing. Didn't turn into anything in the end and the police cuffed the guy - but it was eye opening.
Oh good... the BBC have got Andrew Neil on to talk about how the left are just as much of a problem... lots of "get real", "what about" and "nothing to see here" about yesterday... just as I was warming to the "it's an American problem".... it really isn't, is it.
At what point did someone getting killed next to you while a swat team are coming up the stairs get normalised
Given that it's not even unusual in the US for someone to go on a mass shooting spree around a school with semi-automatic assault rifles, one person getting shot at a time, while involved in criminal activity is almost quaint and old-fashioned
Andrew Neil is a proper ...
Oh good… the BBC have got Andrew Neil on to talk about how the left are just as much of a problem… lots of “get real”, “what about” and “nothing to see here” about yesterday… just as I was warming to the “it’s an American problem”…. it really isn’t, is it.
Don't worry. He'll soon have his very own TV Channel. No need to bother with all that Social Media nonsense.
Indeed. And no doubt continue to attack journalists who dare to look into the affairs of his friends.
Andrew Neil cancelling himself.
The conservative media in the UK has disgraced itself this last year. When people objected to police brutality, they yelled "but communism" in unison.
Remember the Waterloo incident? (where a racist, ex police football thug needed to be rescued by a good Samaritan who was black) I'd like to ask Andrew Neil and his ilk wether they saw it as ironic or profound.
Although I know the answer would be that they didn't see it....at all.
Apologies to franc, who says he doesn't need to hear any quotes from Republicans but I'd like to scream at Andrew Neil what Mitt Romney at his fellow Republicans as the mob took over the chamber...."YOU DID THIS"
It’s because a lot of people don’t look at the situation to decide what to do, they look at the reactions of the people around them to know what to do
Good point. We do rely on others rather than thinking a bit too much. It's faster and easier but not always best.
Inkster, I referred to McConnell specifically - not Republicans generally; having said that, there are several whose emissions I wouldn't miss.
Cruz would be close to the top of that list.
No worries franc, just playing the ball not the man with regards McConell's comments. Same with Lindsay Graham, who comes out with the odd killer line from time to time.
As for Ted Cruz, I promise never to quote him, an easy promise to make given the odds of him ever saying anything interesting let alone truthfull are about as big as Donald's pecker.
Not heard this mentioned so far but what if Trump really is experiencing a form of mania/psychosis related to having covid/long covid and when you add in the cocktail of drugs he received at the time/could well be still on them isn't it now time to call a halt to his presidency?.
Barr had many opportunities to criticise trump but chose not to; better late than never.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/barr-trump-committed-betrayal-of-his-office-455812
The conservative media in the UK has disgraced itself this last year.
Indeed. Also I seem to remember various people on the right complaining about the BBCs 'woke agenda' and anti-Trump bias, how comparing him to autocrats and dictators was outrageous - those comments haven't aged well have they.
Biden is knocking it out of the park right now.
what if Trump really is experiencing a form of mania/psychosis related to having covid/long covid and when you add in the cocktail of drugs he received at the time/could well be still on them isn’t it now time to call a halt to his presidency?.
It certainly is time, but I think the simplest explanation is the theory TJ reminded us of the other day: he has narcissistic personality disorder. Therefore he believes he cannot fail, and therefore any negative outcomes are due to people conspiring against him. I remember this being discussed earlier in his presidency; I still think it's true.
Grum,
My Favorite is Niall Ferguson, who has been blathering on for the last couple of years about how people who see echoes of the 1930's in what's happening now are mistaken, and what we are seeing is more like the 1500's and the information revolution launched by the invention of the printing press. He couldn't see that elements from both eras could be run concurrently.
Checked his Twitter account yesterday and had to laugh when he said he's considering rethinking that synopsis and that he "might" have been wrong.
I'd invite him to revisit everything else he's ever said or published and apply to it the same scrutiny.
Do you remember when you were a child and you watched the election results play out on TV and mistook it for a horse race as the numbers came in?
That's Trump, wether or not he's suffering from mania or psycosis, the truth is that the man is a child.
He's a narcissist and sociopath at best, but possibly a psychopath.
what if Trump really is experiencing a form of mania/psychosis related to having covid/long covid and when you add in the cocktail of drugs he received at the time/could well be still on them isn’t it now time to call a halt to his presidency?.
It certainly is time, but I think the simplest explanation is the theory TJ reminded us of the other day: he has narcissistic personality disorder. Therefore he believes he cannot fail, and therefore any negative outcomes are due to people conspiring against him. I remember this being discussed earlier in his presidency; I still think it’s true.
He’s just a nasty self serving prick of a man in my opinion. Not suffering from a mental disorder or mania from Covid or drugs. Some people are just massive ****s and he’s one of the biggest