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What do you think the x3 deaths from medical emergencies were all about?
I was assuming heart attacks as going up the stairs was probably a new thing for many gravy seals.
But then since our society apparently can’t universally accept whether the moon even exists
I always thought it was the same thing as the sun.
At least one of them was a 53 year old man who apparently tazered himself. I haven’t been able to find a verified source for this. It sounds a bit too… poetic.
He should have just complied with himself, then he would have been OK.
I've looked into it. Apparently one heart attach, one stroke and one person crushed. There is also the report of someone tazering themselves, not sure how that fits in to the numbers.
There is also the report of someone tazering themselves, not sure how that fits in to the numbers.
I think the taser is the 'heart attack' guy.
Getting tasered can potentially lead to an instant cardiac arrhythmia (VF). Which consistently, incorrectly, is reported as a heart attack.
Complete bullshit, an excuse of defeatists who wouldn’t even try to make change, so fully representative of current democrats.
Or it’s an indication not just how broken the US political landscape is - hopelessly partisan without prospect of senators voting their conscience.
Removing political interference from the judicial system is an easy sell to all parties supporters, it is selling an argument their is universal agreement for, but it is a power I suspect the politicians want to weld, so that is the only reason they won’t try, not because it can’t be done.
Sure. Remove the influence those guys on the other side of the aisle have on the judiciary!
Complete bullshit, an excuse of defeatists who wouldn’t even try to make change, so fully representative of current democrats.
Removing political interference from the judicial system is an easy sell to all parties supporters, it is selling an argument their is universal agreement for, but it is a power I suspect the politicians want to weld, so that is the only reason they won’t try, not because it can’t be done.
Look at the history of Obamacare. It was basically copied from what Mitt Romney did as Governor because it was assumed that adopting a Republican policy would help to get bipartisan support. There was fairly strong public support for the actual policies of Obamacare, but Republicans united behind opposition to it. Not because they opposed it on its merits, but because it came from a Democratic President and they were desperate to prevent him from succeeding. Donald Trump campaigned simultaneously on ending Obamacare and protecting the things it did, which are actually very popular among Republican voters, especially older people.
Things now are even worse. Probably about 30% of the U.S. population will be utterly dead-set against anything that Biden attempts to do. Not on the merits of the policies, but because they just do not want to give him any victories. Getting a constitutional amendment passed in that environment is pretty much impossible. Not because the pardon power isn't ridiculous, but because Republicans will oppose it out of sheer bloodymindedness. The constitution cannot be amended without fairly solid bipartisan support, so Biden would be wasting his time trying to go down that route.
Not on the merits of the policies, but because they just do not want to give him any victories.
That's one of the saddest things about modern partisan politics;
Genuine progress where everyone wins is resisted to make sure the 'other side' lose/don't win.
Sure. Remove the influence those guys on the other side of the aisle have on the judiciary!
But it's not is it, it is sacrificing the power "we" currently have to cement the independence of the legal system.
The Republican's ploy has been to prevent the legislation being voted on, now they can't do that, bring it to a vote and let the people decide on the voting records at the next election.
Or just give up without trying, the systems broken, we are in power but we won't try and fix it, because it is broken. FFS is this really all we are going to hear as an excuse for failure to take any action from now on.
When the right wing fanatics win, they don't hesitate to enact their cruel and greeedy agenda, the centrists* need to stop running scared and at least try to bring some balance, otherwise we really will just keep[ marching rightwards until the system collapses under its own avarice.
*the dems are a right wing party mind you, just not as extreme as the republicans.
The Republican’s ploy has been to prevent the legislation being voted on, now they can’t do that,
They can filibuster it in the Senate. You need 60 votes to break the filibuster. You will not get 10 Republican Senators defecting to help out Joe Biden.
The recent 4 years in the UK and US have made something apparent to me that in my 52 years I'd never really considered.
Democracy really isn't the default option of government that we can just depend upon to always be there. It really is fragile and easily usurped if enough people allow it to be.
Just as shocking to me is how fast it can happen.
Turns out being an antimasker has other downsides too.😁
Democracy really isn’t the default option of government that we can just depend upon to always be there. It really is fragile and easily usurped if enough people allow it to be.
A year younger and feel the same.
Keeps being said but the BBC's Rise of the Nazis on iPlayer is an incredible and worrying series.
Sure. Remove the influence those guys on the other side of the aisle have on the judiciary!
Sorry. My sarcasm should have been more heavy handed. Or emojied somehow.
To say “it’s an easy win to get rid of political influence” sounds great.
The reality is more likely to be that both parties are extremely happy that their opponent’s influence is diminished. But less gung-ho about their own being affected.
Repeat for both sides of the political divide. End up back a square one. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
So you agree, it's not that it can't be done that's the problem, it's not the republicans stopping them from trying, but because they don't want to fix the system.
This election was not won on the center ground by flipping moderate republicans, Trump increased his turnout from 2016. There was a groundswell of voters (previously disenfranchised non voters) energized to vote against Trumps corruption. If the Dems want to win the midterms and the next election they need to fight to fix the system, they need to fight for these people and prove that they have their backs and not just be corporate puppets. Then next time they can increase that groundswell and break more records, win more seats and do the right thing.
Or they can do nothing, just continue business as usual politics, suppress the turnout and hand the presidency over to Trump mk2.
Democracy really isn’t the default option of government that we can just depend upon to always be there. It really is fragile and easily usurped if enough people allow it to be.
Yeah I've been thinking about this - people hold up 'democracy' as the ideal end situation, the perfect place from which we can stray by being 'less democratic'. But democracy is only as good as the thought people put into their votes. Otherwise it's less than worthless - it's too easy to abuse.
That's why, as with almost everything, education is the bottom line. And in the UK, as far as politics goes, we get nothing at all.
Whats he going to pardon himself from?
But democracy is only as good
It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.
As soon as you end up too close to a 50/50 split you end up with an issue. Not only is there no genuine majority, but due to the fragile and close nature of the split it pushes people further into their corners and makes co-operation less likely, rinse and repeat until you have half the people working against the other half and no path out of it.
Fundamentally what needs to happen is that people, and the governments that represent them, need a stark reminder that they need to be working for something, and not always against it.
Lasting progress comes through shared goals and compromise on how to get there, not (barely) overpowering the opposition to get your way until the next time 2% swing the other way and it all gets undone.
So you agree, it’s not that it can’t be done that’s the problem, but because they don’t want to fix the system.
The system is working well for Republicans from rural areas. They are in a position to obstruct nearly anything. Democrats want to change things, and I agree with most of what they want to do, but it is not as simple as assuming they just aren't trying. The U.S. system is set up so that rural states have disproportionate power. Wishful thinking won't make that go away.
What Biden can do now that he has a majority in the Senate is get cabinet ministers, judges, etc. confirmed. That allows him to run the government and issue executive orders and regulations. His administration can also appoint special investigators to look into the Trump administration's misdeeds. There will also be Republicans who have reasonable policies they want implemented, but that aren't Democratic priorities. Biden can threaten to veto any legislation related to that.
Stuff like that is how U.S. Presidents get things done. Boldly trying to amend the constitution is not. It might be possible to have the pardon power limited, but it will take years of bipartisan work to make that happen. Biden can't just walk in and demand that it be amended.
probably extends to pardoning his own direct family, but that is more contestable
Which hole did they all disappear down anyway? I know the daughter piped up about daddy but her husband and those other shit bags seem notoriously quiet (I don't follow them on social media, but their deluded thoughts generally get propagated to the mainstream). It'll be tough for them to escape this sinking ship.
Pardon for what?
That Douglas Murray article is the epitome of fake news.
The whole purpose of the article was to smear and draw false equivalence with BLM.
His main assertion is that BLM protesters would have been treated exactly the same as these domestic terrorists were.
That’s one of the saddest things about modern partisan politics; Genuine progress where everyone wins is resisted to make sure the ‘other side’ lose/don’t win.
Probably the biggest single thing (more than corruption and self-serving which has a far smaller impact) to cause me disillusion with politics.
After GravySeals say hi to MealTeamSix
That’s one of the saddest things about modern partisan politics; Genuine progress where everyone wins is resisted to make sure the ‘other side’ lose/don’t win.
The problem is that people don't see it as "everyone wins". They see people they disapprove of winning and assume that it's at the expense of themselves. Currently, the Trumpists are the major problem with this, but it's a universal human thing and right-wing nutters aren't the only ones who fall for this.
FPTP is the problem, it basically guarantees a polarized two party system.
Two party systems tend towards zero sum "I win, you lose" and consensus politics disappears.
Throw in disproportionate franchise and you have the hot mess that is the USA
Guardian reporting that elected republicans from states and off duty police officers were active parts of the mob yesterday. Openly sharing what they were doing on social media and utterly convinced of the rightness of their cause. That’s tragic and a bit scary.
It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.
Agree. This is why PR is so important because it requires co-operation.
Exactly this ^^^.
Like here (to a lesser degree I guess), the US is all about being self-made and successful. if you start handing out free universal healthcare to people that did not pay for it, what incentive is there for others to do the same? Why am _I_ subsidising those workshy scavvers?
I think this has been pushed here with benefit cheats in the tabloids and is a big lever to pull for people that work hard and pay their taxes. It all falls into "commo n good" vs. "individual benefit" and people not being able to see past their own personal bubble. America is just wearing its colour closer to the surface that the UK.
active parts of the mob yesterday [...] utterly convinced of the rightness of their cause.
This is the problem for me, and it all falls back to the tide of fake news that Trump built his whole presidency on.
“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” (1984, George Orwell). It's not the stupid lying-your-way out of trouble that I naively thought it was in 2015. It's always been their policy and this was exactly the intended outcome.
Pardon for what?
This is apparently not important. Pardons can be written to pardon a person for a specific crime, but there is nothing that says they have to mention specific crimes. A 'blanket' pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.
This is apparently not important. Pardons can be written to pardon a person for a specific crime, but there is nothing that says they have to mention specific crimes. A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.
****ing hell!??!!
Though it's still unclear if he can parson himself and it creates the problem that it sort of admits to having commited a crime, this then creates other issues. If he does pardon himself I can see long running legal battles in his future.
I wonder what on earth led to the whole pardoning "thing" being in the constitution?
I'm guessing that there was a genuine and benevolent intention but when the totally immoral are in power any tool can be repurposed for harm.
A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.
Which is what Nixon received from Ford - basically a pardon for any offences committed between two specified dates.
Could a pardon even cover murder? I don't mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?
It also struggles when the people shift to the extremes instead of the middle.
Democracy requires co-operation and majority agreement.As soon as you end up too close to a 50/50 split you end up with an issue. Not only is there no genuine majority, but due to the fragile and close nature of the split it pushes people further into their corners and makes co-operation less likely, rinse and repeat until you have half the people working against the other half and no path out of it.
I think the most depressing thing with our own democracy in the uk - despite our system being not as binary - is when we have a close election and parties have to look to form a coalition the one partnership thats never mooted is one between the two largest parties - each will look to make extraordinary concessions to small fringe parties to just give them the one extra seat they need knowing that the situation will be fragile and that those fringe parties would have them over a barrel - they wouldn't think for a moment to seek to work together and form a governement that represents the largest chunk of the electorate.
A ‘blanket’ pardon covering basically everything is thought to be possible.
I don't know the history of this, but the obvious case is Richard Nixon who was basically given a free pass. Nobody challenged that, but Nixon was disgraced and everyone just wanted to move on. So that was as much a political pardon as a criminal one.
Problem is, no president has tried the self-pardon, so there isn't any case history. If Trump tries it, it will definitely go to the Supreme Court because it defies common-sense.
Another potential problem will be potential charges of obstruction of justice based on Trump pardoning Roger Stone etc. in exchange for them not ratting on him. There is a view in the Department of Justice that sitting Presidents can't be indicted, but no real case history because this sort of thing has never happened in living memory. Also, there's no consensus on whether they can be charged after their term ends.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems pretty clear to me that Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice, including the pardons for his crooked buddies. Assuming the Supreme Court upheld a conviction on that, the question then would be whether the corrupt pardons were revoked or not. This stuff is all unprecedented, so Trump will probably die of natural causes before it's all resolved.
Could a pardon even cover murder? I don’t mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?
Ten examples of murder and conspiracy to murder and a couple of manslaughters too and a couple of attempted assassinations - although in some instance the pardon is about commuting a sentence that was seen to be unconstitutional - where the sentence gave no prospect of release - so they didn't "get away with" murder but the nature of their sentence was later seen to be unfair. Tends to be military personnel too.
Could a pardon even cover murder? I don’t mean inciting I mean gun in hand, pull trigger murder, hypothetically?
You mean like opening fire on a street full of innocent Iraqi civilians, war crimes, etc? Do a quick news search on the pardons Trump has issued in the last few weeks. Utterly sickening.
Cheers, I'll have a read of that.
I'm guessing no president has ever attempted to pardon himself though. When Nixon couldn't/wouldn't have done that I suppose.
Hell, he makes Nixon look like a conventional president.
I wonder what on earth led to the whole pardoning “thing” being in the constitution?
Blatant miscarriages of justice can be corrected. I think most democracies use a review system, where petitions for pardons are reviewed at lower levels and not left to political considerations. The U.S. system is an anachronism, but it's written into the constitution. The constitution has had a few amendments, but Americans worship it like the Bible so most of it reflects 18th century thinking and it's close to impossible to amend it now.
There's a chance Biden may offer him a pardon.
It wouldn't be a bad idea, it could be seen as a way to end division in the US and at the same time, it taint Trump further, because if he was pardoned, he must have done something wrong.
It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the swivel-eyed loons from Qnon etc, but there are a lot of moderate Republicans in the US, some will have voted for Biden, but will likely not vote for Harris in 2024.