[Closed] Tube strikes

Eastern countries etc,,,to places were people are delighted at a chance of a tangible job where previously they really struggled!

Why do you think so many people from the around the world come to Britain? The easy, free availability of heathcare, benefits, education and housing. They can't get this where they live!

There is nowhere else in the world where you can get everything paid for on benefits without contributing!

Spongebob - you do know that you can't get benefits until you have lived a year in the UK and contributed for that year unless you come from a country with reciprocal arrangements

Has anyone noticed that Bob Crow and Frank Sobotka appear to have been seperated at birth?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/bob-crow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sobotka

TandemJeremy - Member

Spongebob - you do know that you can't get benefits until you have lived a year in the UK and contributed for that year unless you come from a country with reciprocal arrangements

Really, so a council housing department will turn away a homeless family who have just arrived in the UK? The NHS hospital won't treat them if they fall ill? For example, how do asylum seekers survive here with no home and no money?

This is getting way off topic! Striking tube workers have no right to close the Tube down for 48 hours in a dispute over pay. They are damn lucky to have jobs, many of which are very well paid for the effort and responsibility demanded of them. People relying on the Tube should not have to put up with the disruption to their lives. Shame on the unions that forced this issue on the workers!

Spongebob - Member

TandemJeremy - Member

For example, how do asylum seekers survive here with no home and no money?

This is the reailty for asylum seekers

Under Section 4 of the 2002 Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act, failed asylum seekers have had state support withdrawn unless they agree to sign up to return home voluntarily. This applies even to those who cannot be returned because it is unsafe. As a result many asylum seekers, who are often terrified at the prospect of returning home, are being left in a kind of limbo, banned from working yet unable to access benefits.

http://www.allwomencount.net/EWC%20Immigrant/destitute_asylum_seekers.htm

[b]TandemJeremy: [/b][i]"Spongebob - you do know that you can't get benefits until you have lived a year in the UK and contributed for that year unless you come from a country with reciprocal arrangements "[/i]

Unfortunately this is not strictly true. These rules main apply to workers who migrated here from the recent EU succession countries in their first 12 months after arrival.

As an aside, the Polish Government is currently running a campaign to persuade Poles to stay in the UK by making them aware of their benefit entitlements as a ploy to reduce the impact on their own benefit system.

Why do you think so many people from the around the world come to Britain?

Because of the cultural links established when we barged into countless other countries around the world demanding money with menaces ?

Yeah, that might have something to do with it...

As an aside, the Polish Government is currently running a campaign to persuade Poles to stay in the UK by making them aware of their benefit entitlements as a ploy to reduce the impact on their own benefit system.

trailmonkey - Member

Why do you think so many people from the around the world come to Britain?

Because of the cultural links established when we barged into countless other countries around the world demanding money with menaces ?

So what about the immigrants from the ones we didn't barge into?

How many hundreds of years do we tax payers have to repay the alleged debt for what the power brokers did many generations ago? Did we bring no benefit to any of those countries?

The notion that we owe everyone from around the world some sort of compensation under these circumstances is nonsense. In fact it's deranged!

Nobody alive today played any part in it, so I don't see why we should feel obligated, or apologetic in any way!

The developed world continues to exploit the undeveloped world, it's called "trade"! Every country has it's own government who have the opportunity to rectify the wrongs. Shame there are so many corrupt administrations. Well as they repeatedly squander everything they get to help rebuild their countries, they can always blame it on the colonialists of a couple of hundred years ago when they are held to account!

Back to the Tube strike.... 😆

The notion that we owe everyone from around the world some sort of compensation under these circumstances is nonsense. In fact it's deranged!

All of that is irrelevant. The fact is that the UK as a place to escape crushing poverty is in the psyche of many people around the world as a result of the links created by the British Empire.

How many hundreds of years do we tax payers have to repay the alleged debt for what the power brokers did many generations ago

Nobody alive today played any part in it, so I don't see why we should feel obligated, or apologetic in any way!

I think you'll find that the British Empire was very much alive and kicking right up until the end of WWII. If you think that the comparative wealth and privelidge that you enjoy today is unconnected with the events of the British Empire then you're highly delusional.

I read somewhere, and maybe our resident Frenchman can confim/deny this that when the French underground staff went on strike they all turned up for work, opened the ticket gates and let everyone have free travel for the duration of the strike, hurting the business but not the commuters.

Make more sense than our lots efforts, even if it's made up!

They used to do that in Holland when I lived there. They got lots of public support and got the attentions of the bosses by hitting them where it hurt the most - in the wallet.

Strikes on the tube today - all I can say is I haven't even had a RPI pay increase in the past 2 years, I've seen my hours increase and actually had my pay cut twice. I have no sympathy for the strikers. Things are tough for everyone.

Shame there are so many corrupt administrations

..that were often installed/supported by the West, to favour Western trade..

Like Saddam Hussein, for example. Augusto Pinochet. Or the recently deceased president of Gabon. And countless others.

Bob Crow has been on the radio, offering to re-open negotiations. So far, TFL jolly well have not responded.

Oh, and quite a few Tube trains were actually running today.

And I notice that some of the reporting of the matter has been less than truthful, and particularly biased against the RMT. Greed and selfishness seem to be taking priority over workers' rights.

>Bob Crow has been on the radio, offering to re-open negotiations. So far, TFL jolly well have not responded.

LOL - TfL were on CH4 news offering to meet the unions tonight or tomorrow morning. When pressed on the same programme Crow said he'd meet them tonight.

Looks like Boris has played a blinder. The fat ****er Crow was tied in knots on C4 news

Could you say that hes a .....scare(D) Crow?

Ah taxi's here

[i]Average Nurse salaries rose to £27K[/i]

Very few ward-based (i.e. doing the grunt work at the bedside) nurses earn anything close to £27k.

What TJ said, plus: a very experienced nurse with outstanding clinical acumen (think senior NCO level, as a rough equivalent) who has chosen [i]not[/i] to take up a sister/charge nurse/nurse specialist/NP/management etc role will not be earning a huge amount over and above her/his starting salary (which has indeed improved). The public get [i]bloody[/i] good value out of those kind of nurses, believe me.

Not moaning about my salary. Just pointing out, is all.

The nurses salary is a different argument. The NHS is massively mismanaged and bloated at higher "positions" with a staff of over 1.4 million (like that many people are needed 🙄 )

I'm sure all the quangos/shit jobs Nu Labour have created for the voters in their heartlands (the NHS/Govt accounts for 75% of the economy in the North East) could be culled and nurses paid an appropriate rate

We need an age-limit for nurses. 23yrs max. Shorter skirts, scratch that- tighter skirts and heels. If a nurse is over 9stone she has to have a GG-rack. If under 9stone, a min. D-cup will suffice.

Lanesra - the NHS suffers from poor management simply because there are not enough mangers and those there are not skilled enough. The NHS spends less on management than other European nations - in part of course because funding is simpler.

The NHS needs more and better skilled managers

hora - Member

We need an age-limit for nurses. 23yrs max. Shorter skirts, scratch that- tighter skirts and heels. If a nurse is over 9stone she has to have a GG-rack. If under 9stone, a min. D-cup will suffice.

Instead you get no teeth and me. I'll wear the skirt if that helps tho. I'm sure no teeth would as well

Shave the back of your hands as well. For me 🙂

TJ, which is what I said. Cull all the waste install some proper management, cost savings across the board and maybe a pay rise for the nurses

Dave, will get in next year and right 12 years of Nu Labour failure

[i]Instead you get no teeth and me[/i]

Hora, be careful what you wish for... 😈

I typed 'spitroast' and images and it came up with this 😕

[img] [/img]

****ing hell Hora, close to the under 16 mark there

Lanesra - really you have no idea. There is no vast number of unneeded people in the NHS. Where do you think these people are? It just ain't happening as you think.

There are no savings to be made except by cutting services. As for Cameron - pledged to destroy the NHS. He gets in with a mandate then expect teh end of the NHS.

[img] [/img]

"This is going to hurt, Mr Hora"

Guys, I only knew one nurse. Gawd she was dirty. She must have filled every mans-stereotype. Bet shes shagged out by now. 8)

How does the NHS need 1.4 million+ people working within it? Doesn't happen in the real world

TJ if you ever get hora under your care, can you please make sure the broom accidentally get sutck up his fat lardy ass?
Or anything else you have under your hand will do though...
Can I ask everyone that have taken a pay cut bla bla bla why did they not went on strike? Why did they not change job?

Oh and griz, please give back trailmonkey password please

Because that how many people it takes to run it. The ration of Shop floor to managers is low in comparison to most healthcare systems. The NHS cost less per person than most of Europe's healthcare and half of what the USA does which is not comprehensive

2003 figures - UK has increase as a % of gdp to around 9 but others have increased as well

[img] [/img]

TJ NHS cost less because you get less care too.
I have been on both side off the channel and health care is one thing I wasn't very happy with UK...

Yup - indeed that is true - you get what you pay for and we don't pay very much.

I'll look out for Hora coming under my care. I do specialise in Dementia care so it might be sson

It does not take 1.4 million people to run/work within an organisation which has a (maximum) customer base of 60 million people.

I should imagine at most times the number of workers within the NHS outnumber the patients by (at least) 5-1.

You seem good at throwing up random bar charts maybe you can find one on that?

ok I'll paypal yyou a beer and the price of a big big stick...
make sure you stuff it very deep inside so you jam his brain and the world will be free off the shite going out of it

Lanesra - no matter how you wish it the position is we have that many staff because that is what is needed. Staff costs are around half of total healthcare costs. Other countries spend more on healthcare 'cos they have more staff. saleries is where the money goes.

Juan, I love you man. 😈

Again, how does the NHS need 1.4 million+ staff (not taking away the good work the 10% do). It's a stupid amount of people to work in one orginisation

Because thats how many staff it takes. You may think its a stupid number but without them you would get no healthcare 1/2 a million of them are nurses. Then there are doctors, Operating department staff, receptionists, cleaners, laundry staff, porters, catering staff, drivers, procurement and supplies staff, payroll staff, maintenance staff, medical physic engineers, lab staff. researchers, training and teaching staff, admn and support staff etc etc. IIRC managerial staff are about 5% ot the total.

500,000 nurses, to take care of how many people?

500,000 people at 20k minimum, plus pensions etc.. how much money is that..

[b]TJ:[/b] [i]"Lanesra - no matter how you wish it the position is we have that many staff because that is what is needed. "[/i]

That is simply not the case.

Productivity has fallen in the NHS pretty much every year since 2000 - this effectively means that the more staff the NHS has employed, the less it has produced per FTE.

Take a trip round many PCTs and SHAs and you'll find a mixture of impactful roles that are undertaken by passionate, committed people, and other roles that don't really seem necessary and are quite often filled by staff that should have been managed out for underperforming but instead have been sidelined into roles that don't really need doing.

Another example. Do we really need 10 SHAs and 151 PCTs, all with seperate Boards / Directors? Do we really need all 500+ NHS Trusts to each have their own IT director and individual model for service delivery? Is this really an efficient model for running a complex, distributed organisation? The answer is clearly no - the NHS needs to be run more efficiently with more of its resources going to front line services / staff.

Get into the clinical professions and you'll find that in some parts of the country, nurse to patient ratios are 15% higher but standards / care is worse.

Put all of these things together and you have a picture of a system that has struggled to use its rapidly increasing resources (£37B in 1997 to £110B next year). As with any system, there's waste, and due to the scale of the NHS, this all adds up. Adopting widely used standards already established elsewhere in Whitehall functions e.g. Online Procurement would also save somewhere between 5-10% of purchasing NHS spend.

Juan, none of this girlyman stuff- proper manlove; Steam tractor engine pistons.

I do not deny there is some waste and innefficiency. However it is very small in comparison to the size of the organisation. To reduce waste and innefficiency the NHS needs more and better quality management.

What people fail to realise is that some of the extra money has gone into improved [b]quality [/b]of outcome that cannot be measured in easy ways.

The "budget tripled" thing is bogus as well. Inflation in medical world runs roughly double to inflation in the general economy. Saleries have also increased. Hence there is not 3X the resources available to treat patients. More like 30% more.

"I do not deny there is some waste and innefficiency. However it is very small in comparison to the size of the organisation"

That's precisely the point. Because it's the world's 4th largest organisation, waste and inefficiency adds up. Take discretionary spend on areas excluding estates and staff. NHS procurement accounts for c£15B of annual spend. The office for government commerce reckons that a 10% spend could be achieved by procuring through electronic marketplaces - representing a saving of £1.5B / year. The NHS doesn't do this, despite the saving representing the equivalent of running 10-12 district general hospitals for a whole year.

FarmerJ - are you the forum member formerly known as ex-yorkshire-truck-whore ? 😀

FarmerJohn - from working in the NHS I am certain that is simply not the case. If you go for a "one size fits all" procurement that in itself has waste. You end up with anomalies where equipment that suits one area is not available and then needs special measures to obtain this equipment.

Efficiency savings could be made but would be a tiny % of the overall cost. Insignificant and most likely swallowed up by the increased management to administer the megalithic set up you envisage

Meanwhile, back at the Tube Strike, London vaguely resembles the Serengeti during Wildebeest migration time. Pouring out of Waterloo station this morning and over the bridges, a vast, jostling crowd of people who normally make their journeys underground were surging along in a great mass of pinstripes and briefcases, slurping on frappamappachinos. The mood was good-natured, with a bit of light eye-rolling and that amazing avoidance of embarrassment that Londoners can manage when you squeeze several hundred of them into a very tight space, someone has a raging boner and everybody catches it. Bicycles throng the streets, London Cycling Campaign actually manages to get positive press for its well-executed and useful "bike tube" initiative, taxis from the terminals are running on fixed fare bands, the buses waddle along, bursting at the seams and the sun shines.

Crow's lot are supposed to be back on this evening by the time we're going home, but presumably many of them won't be able to get to work because the tubes aren't running.

All good fun.

🙂

Andywhit: I beg your pardon?

Not quite so good natured coming into the City from the North BigDummy, lots of irate van drivers trying to squeeze their Sprinters through gaps that even the most determined Lewis Day bike courier couldn't get through

lots of dangers for us cyclists too with scooters and bikers weaving in and out of the gridlock without even a cursory glance; the tube rats forced to the surface, spilling off the footpath
though some stretches of road were bizarrely clear where someone had blocked the turn at the last junction allowing the cyclists to practice their Cavend-ish sprints

[i]FarmerJ - are you the forum member formerly known as ex-yorkshire-truck-whore ?[/i]

😀

That took me back... Where are you now, oh scourge of the unions?

Speaking of dangerous delivery drivers. Large truck this morning had me into the kerb, 100m's on- girl had to jump off her bike onto the kerb to avoid him pushing her over it. I followed him- and got alongside (black sunglasses on a grey morning. Had a rant- took down his reg/employer and a Beemer driver gave me her business card saying he had also cut her up and she'd be a witness.

Is it worth complaining to his employer? (City Link) or would they get soo many complaints a day and probably use agency drivers anyway?!

Do it Hora. I don't know about Citylink, but I do know that UPS directly employ their drivers, so it may well not be an agency. The company will be keen to protect its reputation, and will most likely give the driver a warning if only because they don't want the hassle of dealing with complaints.

Phone them up and ask to speak to their fleet manager, if they get lippy say that you'd like to speak to the MD. I usually say its either one of them or I'll just phone the police instead.
I particularly like it when they have "how's my driving" stickers on the back. I phonbed one and held the phone up so's the operator could record the threats and foul language coming out of the cab window.

😮 I emailed through- contact over another matter'. Woman just called me, checked some details then said she would be speaking to the Depot Manager (do you want him to call you as well?)- I said no need. Wow. So I would say a circa 40mins response time for a general email/through a companies site.

Inflation in medical world runs roughly double to inflation in the general economy

I think that that's what's happening now already.