Am I right in thinking that if your workforce goes on strike, you could sack them all immediately with no fear of paying redundancy or being sued for wrongful dismissal? And then, could you potentially hire completely different people for more money with the small proviso that they are not allowed to strike?
So, effectively, you've given a kick in the teeth to all the people who tried to screw you over (they're jobless and see other people in their old job earning more money), you have a new workforce who won't strike, and you've saved money in getting rid of some employees who you didn't want anyway.
[i]Am I right....?[/i] No.
I had that dream once, too.
🙂
Who's up for a London beer tonight while the socialists/communists/lazy-arsed-****ers put their feet up again? 🙂
You could always just shoot them instead.
stoner - damn, wrong part of town again, anyway got a client presentation in NW tonight.
I'm sure Lord Snooty and his pals will make Flaperon's dreams come true if we're all dumb enough to elect them in.
actually flaperon' spost reminds me of a post I made a year ago or so for which I got royally flamed (including by Mr Moses to IIRC - printing business isnt it?) where I rather cheered at the fact that some strike-happy union in the south west in a print works finally broke the goodwill of the company owners who decided enough was enough and pulled the plug. Folding the company and putting everyone out of work.
The Tubes is a bit different as Boris can hardly close it all down...
Proper blackmail then.
I'm with the striking Tube workers.
Anything that pisses people like Stoner off can only be a good thing. 😀
I'd be up for a beer, Stoner, but a nice beer, not that warm, muddy, flat insipid stuff you like...
What exactly are they striking about this time?
Hours?
Conditions?
Pay?
The fact they have a job and millions are unemployed? 👿
What exactly are they striking about this time?
........................................The fact they have a job and millions are unemployed
Good point, well made. They should work for nothing and let the management thoroughly abuse them until 100% employment is resumed.
What exactly are they striking about this time?
Why not try to find out? There's plenty of information out there... 🙄
I was hoping you would do it for me Rudeboy, seeing most of your "opinions" are googled anyway!
Yawn...
Bored now.
[url= http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jcfoZd44i37WsLyjJS8GDiL6jAug ]Why Tube workers are stiking this time[/url]
I use the Tube. The service is rubbish. These strikers are on another planet! Most have no concept of the customer - the crux of all the issues with the Tube.
Bob Crow is mad supporting a strike in this climate!
He also has spearheaded strikes and disruption over the contracts awarded to the now failed Metronet and also Tubelines. He argues that the maintenance should have remained under the control of the London Underground.
My experience is that LU workers take every opportunity to disrupt the service when there is the slightest whiff of a technical fault of any kind. They then blame Tubelines for this. As far as the LU workers are concerned, the passengers (customers) can go to hell!
There are thousands of people who depend on the tube who are feeling insecure in their jobs. The tube workers frequently make these people late for work and when they strike they make it very difficult to get to work. Many people I know have taken pay cuts and i'm out of work due to these difficult times.
Bob Crow and his bunch of lefty idiots are totaly out of touch!
Sack the lot of them!!!
So basically, because you're inconvenienced, you want all Tube workers sacked?
Why not get another job closer to home, use another form of transport, move to another city where the transport system is perfect?
i'm out of work due to these difficult times.
So, that's the fault of the Tube workers, is it?
Basically, your argument just seems to come down to your own anger and bitterness at how you feel you've been let down, and you want to las out at someone.
Ironic, considering the very people you've taken umbrage with are concerned with trying to secure their livelihoods and future employment...
Just out of inertest; how many of you Tory Boys have actually sat down with any Tube workers, and discussed the issues at stake?
hmmm. pay and conditions for tube workers is hardly that bad - hundreds of thousands of people in the country have opted for pay cuts/freezes/unpaid leave in order to get through the recession and keep their jobs.
striking certainly does not help public opinion sway in favour of the tube workers, most of which did not vote for a strike.
Still, I'll just ride my bike across london tomorrow instead. 🙂
Nearly everyone has a right to strike or to withdtraw their labour, thats what they have done/doing.
Tough, if you dont like it move somewhere else,that isnt dependant on crowded smelly tubes,full of people who youd never speak to,crammed in like smarties in a tube.
pay and conditions for tube workers is hardly that bad
Eh? I woon't fancy doing their job! Stuck for hours underground, in stale air, having to deal with all sorts of pissed-up ****ers in suits of an evening, getting abused, having to deal with emergency situations, fatalities, and a public that moans any time you want to exercise your right to withdraw your labout, if you feel your working conditions/pay aren't good enough.
Would you do it??
So Rudeboy, project, yot think that the tube workers are justified in striking over pay in this economic climate?
I fundamentally disagree with the right to strike! Unions are bullies, not just to management, but to some or all of their members.
Also, the tube network issues have nothing to do with my unemployment! My point is that Tube workers, by disrupting the service, have not the slightest interest in the innocent people their unreasonable and irrational actions impact on. They don't give a damn about their customers!
Moving to a different place to get away from London would be nice, but very expensive and it's not just about what suits me, there are other members of my household. It's also important to remain close enough to where the main sources af work are. If a great job comes up somewhere different, I'll give relocation some serious thought, but as it stands, i'm like most other people - you have to live in a densely populated area to get work.
Finally, I have sorted out an alternative to the Tube. I am not a regular commuter now, but I did my DAS so I that I can get a bike to commute next time a job arises (where otherwise i'd be dependent on public transport). I'd sooner drive to work if it was close enough and without too much conjestion.
The Tube will be the shame of the UK in 2012 when stories of how overcrowded, dirty and unreliable it is reach all corners of the globe. If the people who run and man the underground made the effort, the experience would be in a different league from what it is today.
Rudeboy, if they don't like the pay and conditions, they can always leave!
Frequently Bob Crow defends the safety of teh public on teh tube, hwoever I fail to se how reinstating a member of staff who made false safety claims and opened the doors on the wrong side of a train is doing that.
Two fail at arbitration over disciplinary procedures indicates what a parallel universe the RMT leaders live in.
Interestingly less than half the workforce actually voted for industrial action, yet the picket will stand firm no doubt, inetresting that all these workers will give up wages, when they haven't even voted for teh action rather than disobey the union.
Although who know's what tactics teh RMT use when they can't even manage to run ballots correctly...
I am very happy to support the right of people to withdraw their labour.
But there is a tactical aspect to striking. If you are running what is basically a public service you dio have to bear in mind that striking impactas on users, and how government responds to your striking is affected by public perception.
The tube staff strike rather a lot, and sympathy for them is limited. Tactically I am pretty sceptical that this will get them anywhere very much.
Everyone chooses there job/career. If you don't like it do something else.
rudeboy, I don't recall the recruitment process of the underground involved holding a gun to someones head and making them work on the underground. pay is good. condiditions have always been that way, so completely unjustified to use that as a reason for a strike. what are they going to do? install daylight on the tube? have the customers got worse? maybe, maybe not.
No one deserves to be treated badly by customers, but in a customer facing role, it happens, and is endured by waiters, shop staff, bar staff, bus drivers, train conductors (repeat to fade). MTFU and get on with it!
http://www.backingblair.co.uk/london_underground/
Rude word content, so if listening at work, headphones or not at all!
There's a group on facebook called "Bob Crow and the RMT are a bunch of..." with a graphic showing pay and benefit comparisons for 2008/09 as follows:
Median Private sector / hour: £14.54
Median Public sector / hour: £20.75
Tube drivers / hour : £35.46
They (RMT members) already have 35 hour working weeks and 43 days annual leave. Now they want more pay and less working hours at a time when 2m+ have lost their jobs and most people in the private sector (already paid substantially less) have received pay cuts / freezes and 50% falls in the value of their already limited pensions.
If the driver on the Piccadilly line I saw recently night is anything to go by, it's not a very demanding job. He was slumped back in his chair, on a mobile phone and with his knees up on the dashboard either side of the deadmans handle as the train pulled in to Hammersmith station.
The only tube driver I've known quit the job because she was fed up with the union, not because the work was boring or there was too much hassle from the public...
Does Bob Crow get paid more if the staff strike more often?
"Does Bob Crow get paid more if the staff strike more often? "
In 2007 Bob Crow was paid £79,564 gross salary, plus employer pension contributions of £26,115.
source: [url= http://www.certoffice.org ]Official Certification Officer[/url]
I forgot to add that Crow's wife is Chief Executive of the RMT Credit Union.
Interestingly less than half the workforce actually voted for industrial action, yet the picket will stand firm no doubt, inetresting that all these workers will give up wages, when they haven't even voted for teh action rather than disobey the union.
14% of the LU workforce voted for the strike.
TM
it's one thing to strike in relation to pay, but one of their conditions is that there will be no forced redundancies. how can they possibly think any employer can guarantee that at the moment?
Over to you Rudeboy.
From today's Standard;
A deal to halt tonight's Tube strike was scuppered by union demands to reinstate two train drivers sacked for serious disciplinary offences.Transport for London described it as "a slap in the face" to millions of commuters.
The network shuts down for 48 hours from 7pm but the knock-on disruption could last three days at a cost to London of £100million.
An agreement with the RMT union to call off the strike over pay and jobs was about to be reached last night until the shock demand to give the two men their jobs back.
One driver, Carl Campbell, was sacked for opening the doors on the wrong side of the train at a Victoria line station, then lying about carrying out safety checks.
The other, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is due to go on trial later this month for theft.
f you are running what is basically a public service you dio have to bear in mind that striking impactas on users
True but then users should value the fact that such service exist.
If people think tubes drivers are overpaid they could alway apply for the job. But then don't complain you are not seeing your kids for Xmas.
Anyway, why am I not surprise by some replies on here 😀
True but then users should value the fact that such service exist.
I bet we could restaff this service twice over in quite a short timescale in the current climate. Get rid of some of the ball & chain rights the current employees have whilst we are at it.
You make it sound as if we should thankfull for them doing the job they are paid to do.
If people think tubes drivers are overpaid they could alway apply for the job
You'll be lucky sunshine.
That cushy little number known as tube train driving hasnt employed direct recruits for years. Closed shop run by the Union.
Unfortunately organisations such as the Tube have entrenched old school unions, who whilst they look after they're members interests above all, sometimes don't necessarily get the outcome that their members were hoping for.
Oh, and those of you who think that canning them all and bringing in new people is the way to go would find very rapidly that there'd be no service at all, for weeks if not months.
You make it sound as if we should thankfull for them doing the job they are paid to do.
Well apparently if you are in big trouble when there is no tube you should...
I'm staggered sometimes by what a bastion of conservatism this place is.
God damn it, don't those peasants out there know their places.
Stoner - IIRC, the company in Frome just shut the factory down while the unions were negotiating, there were no strikes nor threatened strikes. The works was profitable, but new owners decided they could save money by offshoring. Result - no one in the UK won.
If I'm wrong, please find the relevant infos...
Parent company Media & Print Investments Plc (MPI) blamed the difficulties on a threat by the trade union Unite to take strike action over new contracts.It said the union's failure to resolve working practices meant finances had been withdrawn.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7381212.stm
As is often the case funding offers are driven by revenue contracts. If those contracts can only be considered conditional because of the threat to meeting the contract obligations by the Unions then no investor (bank or private equity) is going to put their stake at risk.
It was extremely naive of the union to attempt to hold the owner's to ransom. Without being able to offer a stable business from which to deliver client contracts there can be no orders, without orders there is no funding, without funding there is no business.
BTW a follow up to the Frome story.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/2793333/Felix-Dennis-rescues-Butler-and-Tanner-for-500000.html
The company has been bought (for pretty much £0) mainly, it appears for sympathetic reasons. However, what is clear is that it can only support a vastly reduced workforce. That would have been the original problem, and it hasnt gone away. But the Unions called the previous owners bluff and lost. It has taken virtual administration to reduce heacount to a sustainable level for that company. The Unions should have helped do that through cooperation to avoid massive shocks like having to make 300 odd people redundant first.
Mr Dennis said he has put his "full financial support" behind the printing group, and will invest more in the group "when appropriate".Mr Dolan said it was also likely the Mr Dennis will take advantage of British publishers moving their business back to the UK, as costs rise in Europe and China.
However, at this stage the publishing mogul said he could only offer 80 former employees their jobs back - less than a third of the plant's original workforce.
Median Private sector / hour: £14.54
Median Public sector / hour: £20.75
Tube drivers / hour : £35.46
That's right; quote the pay of the drivers (one of the best paid jobs on the Underground, which recruits from staff who have plenty of experience working in other areas of the service), why don't you? We could all find statistics to support whatever argument we have...
Got figures for ticket hall staff, cleaners, maintenance workers, etc?
Whilst I'm sure there are a few spurious reasons for striking, I'm glad there's at least one powerful union, that seeks to protect it's workers from getting shafted by greedy bosses.
I bet most of you lot get paid a darn sight more than yer average underground worker. Tell you what, if you think it's such a wonderful job, with fantastic benefits, why aren't you all applying for jobs on the Tube?
FFS; a couple of days of disruption to your routines, and you're up in arms.
We'll overlook the fact that it's unions that have fought for rights of ALL workers in this country (such as 40 hour weeks, better health and safety conditions, equal pay for women, rights for those with disabilities, the right to appeal dismissal, blah blah blah). And that it;'s often been the unions who've been instrumental in many social rights campaigns, such as fighting racial/sexual discrimination, minimum wages, etc etc.
Many of the rights that we all enjoy in this country have been fought for, and won, by unions.
Long live the unions!
But feel free to carry on with your pathetic, selfish 'me me me' moaning. I find it very amusing. Just shows what selfish greedy self-centered hypocrits some of you really are.
Get back to yer curtain twitching...
[i]Long live the unions![/i]
out of morbid curiousity, of which union are you a member, Rudeboy?
Tell you what, if you think it's such a wonderful job, with fantastic benefits, why aren't you all applying for jobs on the Tube?
If they think it's such a terrible job with such terrible benefits, why aren't they all applying for jobs elsewhere rather than getting in the way of other people.
Thousands of people who work as temps may well not be able to get to work for a couple of days, losing them the income from that work. Many business will be understaffed and therefore will lose custom as a result. The knock on effect of a tube strike is huge.
[hijack]CFH - beer?, Westminster Arms/Tattershall castle?[/hijack]
If they think it's such a terrible job with such terrible benefits, why aren't they all applying for jobs elsewhere rather than getting in the way of other people.
Who's saying they think it's a 'terrible' job? They're just asking for it to be a little bit better, that's all.
I agree that is is in fact the lower paid people who will suffer the most; the likes of Stoner and BigDummy won't be worried about a few quid lost, if in fact they'll lose anything at all, if they 'can't get to work'.
But like youse lot give a **** about the 'little people' anyway; the same people that you like to look down your poncy selfish noses at, and tell yourself you're 'better' than them. Please. Don't pretend you 'care'. You're more concerned with what posh wine to have with your dinner, than you are about others.
I think the threat of strike is meant to make the employers relent, and accept the demands from the unions. Seems like there's 'negotiation' still in progress. We'll see. Nice to see that some of youse lot are condemning Tube workers already.
Am off riding this evening, Stoner, sorry!
Besides, the Tattershal? Are you quite, quite mad!
totty spotting.
Although I accept it's not quite the weather for it this evening 🙁
Ah, good point! For that it is a fine venue.
As are the bars around Paternoster Sq, by the way.
of which union are you a member, Rudeboy?
What's that got to do with the price of fish?
Can I come to the pub too, then? 😀
yep - a fair enough one is on the square called The Chop House which has a decent wine list. It does attract a few too many "new young bankers" if you know what I mean though.
none of the bars around there have any "pattina" though. Too new.
Stoner:
[i]Unite said an average salary payment of £1,200 was due to each employee this month, and a total of £45,000 in pensions contributions needed to be refunded to the workforce as a whole.
Senior representative Stuart North said: "We have accepted pay cuts and all the conditions.
"The only issue in dispute was that Mike Dolan wanted us to sign a document giving him the right to sue individual employees. [/i]
B+T had been profitable before its takeover - it was the financial engineering that shafted it. 450 ordinary blokes laid off so that some faceless **** could make more millions. It makes one sick.
[i]Can I come to the pub too, then?
[/i]
You wouldnt like it RB.
BD and I shall be looking down our noses at people and using some long words.
So the transport in FreddedBraBoy's 'greatest city in the world' has broken again? It's not even snowing this time ffs!
[i]The only issue in dispute was that Mike Dolan wanted us to sign a document giving him the right to sue individual employees. [/i]
Inflammatory stuff from the union rep, Moses. Almost certainly hyperbole if even remotely true and probably so far out of context as to make it impossible to ascertain quite what was intended by the original clause.
You bottle-job. More like, you'd be too afraid to actually discuss issues without being behind the safety of yer keyboard! 😀
Grr!
[gently wades in]Can't really add more to the rights or wrongs of this one; and if there was a "picket line" I'd struggle to cross it TBH. I think their timing's all wrong. It's a bit of a cliche to say "In these economic times, blah blah blah..." because for some people, life's a struggle whether we're in boom or bust, but I can't help wondering why they'd pick firstly our first descent into recession in years and the night of an England game in Wembley to walk out. Sometimes I wonder if Crow almost delights in pissing every-****uing-body off.[gently wades back out]
[chip on shoulder]Remember the summer of '89 when we had weekly strikes for the whole of public transport in London? That was the summer I turned 18 - me and my mates all came over and went crazy let loose in London for 3 months. Well, I turned 18 on one of the Wednesdays they went on strike meaning I couldn't enjoy my first legal drink with everybody else as we were spread all over London. An unfortunate coincidence but I've never forgotten the ****ers for it[/chip on shoulder]
Well, what you quoted was not impartial, either. And I don't think that mentioning the wages owed was inflammatory. It shows that the average wage was about £15k - not high at all.
Stoner's too scared I'd give him a Chinese Burn, and he'd be so frightened he'd wet his pants in front of everyone, and they'd all laugh and point cruelly and unkindly!
Good point re the timing, Darcy. I think you may be right about Bob Crow as well, by the way!
If they think it's such a terrible job with such terrible benefits, why aren't they all applying for jobs elsewhere rather than getting in the way of other people
That's Toryism encapsulated. If you don't like it **** orf and find another job you grotty little oiks.
Thousands of people who work as temps may well not be able to get to work for a couple of days, losing them the income from that work. Many business will be understaffed and therefore will lose custom as a result. The knock on effect of a tube strike is huge.
Just goes to prove what an important part the tube system plays then doesn't it. It's staff should be treated accordingly.
I'm all for strikes for genuine reasons but really, the reinstatement of these two being a pre-requisite of calling off the strike is showing that it's about the union not about fairness. I recall a strike a few years ago over the reinstatement of the bloke who was off work sick with an ankle injury yet somehow managed to play squash. Crow reckoned that was justified too.
trailmonkey,
by your last argument, should the entire profit for every business in london be paid to the tube as without the tube they'd go to the wall (or more likely another city)?
Where've the little Thatcherites gone? Come on, I was well up for a pagga! 😀
just to make it easier for you Fred:
1) im not a Tory
2) im not a thatcherite
and 3) im in the pub so you can frot away on your own
[i]Where've the little Thatcherites gone? [/i]
Down the pub for a drink and you are talking to your self on the internet.
FWIW the pay of a tube driver is crazy when I work with guys doing very difficult jobs and being the best in the world at it for much less than that. Oh and we do have a union but the sort who negotiate and only step in as a last resort and not at the whim of a power crazed nutter.
SSP
Do you know what?
I don't give **** what they are on strike about. I am however going to the smoke for the day to visit my son, a chance that I don't often get, and frankly I'm hardpressed to see what is so important that it justifies bringing the capital to a standstill, let alone inconveniencing me.
No sides, but frankly both parties need their heads banging together and being forcibly ejected into the real world that most of the rest of us have to survive in.
by your last argument, should the entire profit for every business in london be paid to the tube as without the tube they'd go to the wall (or more likely another city)?
No,it just goes to prove what an important part the tube system plays then doesn't it. It's staff should be treated accordingly.
I fully support the tube drivers in their efforts not to get made redundant, but I don't think they're endearing themselves to the public with these 7pm starts - which effectively turn a 48-hour strike into three days of not being able to count on getting a tube.
[b]Rudeboy[/b] : [i]That's right; quote the pay of the drivers (one of the best paid jobs on the Underground, which recruits from staff who have plenty of experience working in other areas of the service), why don't you? We could all find statistics to support whatever argument we have...[/i]
Come on then...
1) im not a Tory
2) im not a thatcherite
and 3) im in the pub so you can frot away on your own
Tory Thatcherite Bottler!
FWIW the pay of a tube driver is crazy
What, £35000 a year? Care to explain why?
Come on then
'Come on then' what, mate?
Do you know what?I don't give **** what they are on strike about. I am however going to the smoke for the day to visit my son, a chance that I don't often get, and frankly I'm hardpressed to see what is so important that it justifies bringing the capital to a standstill, let alone inconveniencing me.
Do you know what?
I don't give a **** about your transport woes.
Easy, this selfishness, is not it?
Farmer_John - MemberCome on then...
RudeBoy - Member'Come on then' what, mate?
Fight! Fight! Fight! This is how they start isn't it?
[url= http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Tube_Driver_3207 ]Tube driver salary £40K[/url]
[url= http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Bus_Driver_366 ]Bus driver salary £18K[/url]
A bus driver has to steer also 😀
Heh!
And you'd be known as a 'shit-stirrer', DD! 😉
And you'd be known as a 'shit-stirrer', DD!
LOL! Yeah, the guy who says "did you hear what he said about you mate?"
andywhit - MemberTube driver salary £40K
Bus driver salary £18K
Try not being so lazy, with yer googling, please.
[url= http://www.oxfordstudent.com/ht2004wk5/News/low_wages_at_high_table ]
[/url]£32,000p.a. London Tube Driver£43,656p.a. Waste Disposal Manager
£125,253p.a. Vice Chancellor, Oxford
£29,336p.a. University Lecturer
[url= http://www.****/news/article-138486/Tube-drivers-vote-strike.html ]
[/url]Mr Mason said the three per cent would take the average Tube driver's salary to more than £31,000 a year.
So, I'd imagine that while some Tube drivers, with long service are on £35k+, there will also be quite a few on less than £30k.
Ooh, tell you what; I've just stuffed meself with 4 sausage butties. Think I might have to have a little lie down for a bit...
Jeez, try not being so lazy with yer debating and fight instead!!
18:59...Strike! One out, all out!
I think you've got it all wrong... surely they are just being rather enthusiatic supporters of Bike Week?
😀
Plus, why are all you lot moaning, I'd have thought it was an ideal excuse to ride into work!