[Closed] Tree Surgeons? Will I die if I try this?

how is the tree-pool house relationship this morning?

The tree is still standing, the hoose slept uneasily. I'm thinking about a Tifor winch for a more controlled pull. Currently phoning plant hire companies.

Have you thought about using a crane, like this one.....

[img] [/img]

that must have been a proper KYB* moment as that crane started to tip..

*Keich Yer Breeks

I use a small (2 ton, whatever that means) hand winch which works well pulling tress down, but not in such a critical situation as you.
Good luck.

My mate is sending the Tirfor down from Orkney. I figure if I can pull the tree verical on its root ball, I can fell it from there.

I'll post pics.

My first thought was to pull it back upright but then thought that it would take a lot of force to do that, probably more than it would to pull it to the side. The root would probably be under compression and would want to spring back towards the pool house, you could do yourself some serious damage if the tree does spring back towards you while your cutting.

It's probably been said already but I would have thought that digging around the root ball on the right of the tree(looking at the house from behind the tree) and then pulling it to the left with something strong might do the trick.
The only problem with a Tirfor is that if you needed to pull it sideways quickly you'd be stuffed - whereas if you use a big tractor you could just put your foot down. Just make sure that the cable/strap is attached below the level of the rear axle or very bad things could happen.

Oh yes and please don't use rope - it will stretch and if it breaks it will come flying back at you very fast. Chain would be better, but I'm sure you knew that.

My first thought was to pull it back upright but then thought that it would take a lot of force to do that, probably more than it would to pull it to the side. The root would probably be under compression and would want to spring back towards the pool house, you could do yourself some serious damage if the tree does spring back towards you while your cutting.

Good point. I'm wondering if I cut the root ball at the pool hoose side once upright before I start the felling. There is very little holding the roots in place on that side. I would try and tie it off with a couple of ropes on the fall side before cutting. I think my tirfor is rated at three tons, would that be enough to raise it? I expect the higher up the tree I can winch it from the easier the pull.

All this talk of rope!! I wouldn't go any where near it with rope! Either chains or lifting straps! Oh and the crane, curse of the fly jib!!!

I just asked a friend their opinion - he's a tree surgeon - and his response was

call a pro - hung up trees are really dangerous. Pulling them with machines is a forestry op and not appropriate either for his kit or location

seriously; the stresses and weights are surprising! Can't advise strongly enough not to try this unless you're a very experienced tree jock

Was trying to convince me to get my chainsaw tickets when I saw him at christmas. I'm tempted if there is going to me more of this weather; there'll be no shortage of work!

Can you not just set fire to it?

😉

I'd get a tree surgeon in asap. In no way would I muck about with something that could pulp me/others.

Can you not just set fire to it?

Nuke it from outer space to be sure..

McM,

A cautionary tale from my path-building days:

We used Tirfor winches to move large boulders around (most cross drains you see on hill paths are constructed this way). Generally, the winch is anchored to a large steel pin hammered into the ground which allows for a bit of "give" in the system. We used nylon strops to attach the winch body to the anchor pin and to wrap the boulders which were then hooked onto the steel winch cable. Works a treat in most situations.

However, one day when working near the bottom of the Kilbo Path in Glen Clova, a workmate and I were using one of the abundant larch trees as an anchor whilst trying to shift a large, recalcitrant rock. As the tension increased in the system, a lot of load built up in the anchor strop which failed catastrophically with a loud, explosive report, catapulting the winch forward with great force and narrowly missing legs and feet. Would easily have broken bones if it had made contact.

Use chains, or better still get a man in... (but video it whatever you do 😉 )

After the night we've had here, is it still at the same angle or has there been more movement?

Updates please McM.

As WIngnuts said, I would surprised if things have not shifted in the battering that many places got last night.

mcmoonter hope you are the owner of some nicely chopped firewood, if its still standing after the battering wind last night, that will be amazing?

if it's still standing after last night, leave it. It's not going [b]anywhere[/b]...

You'll still have the £250 from You've Been Framed to repair the shed.

Well if it is still standing, what about hanging one of these off it 😉

[img] [/img]

Does the pool house still exist?

Bit worried mcmoonter has not replied yet, I do hope your pool house is OK btw.

After last night the tree hasn't moved so he's using it as a gib crane to move the pool house to another locations my guess.

[img] [/img]

My ruby slippers are safe for now. The tree is still standing, though the pine that is holding it ip is bending a little. I'm surprised it survived last night, we had another blast of wind this morning. The winch should be here by the weekend. I'll keep you posted.

Hmm, he's very quiet isn't he.

Perhaps we were foolish in asking for video & pictures, we should have asked for a live webcast!

I'll keep you posted.

I am clearing my weekend schedule, in anticipation of the vodcast.

Pulling it sideways, with something that can do it quickly, will be the safest option.

Problem with pulling it back upright and over, is you'll need a lot of force to get it back over, and if something gives in the process, it'll most likely go back to where it started and then probably keep going.

Big tractor, or ideally big winch on big tractor would be the safest option. Once it starts to move, you want it pulled into a safe drop zone as quickly as possible, which you'll struggle to do with a hand winch.
It takes a lot of experience to deal with wind blow, and even then you're only guessing what will happen, and hoping it doesn't do anything too unexpected.

And just because a tractor can pull a 20 tonne trailer, doesn't mean it'll pull a 20tonne tree over. A 20tonne trailer will add a good few tonne onto the tractor wheels, whereas as a 20tonne tree will pull the tractor up of the ground and slide it to where the tree is.
Make sure you don't misjudge the height of the tree/distance of the tractor, as even the top foot of the tree can do a lot of damage!

Trouble with tirfors are they are slow, if you get it part way back upright and it decides to go off at an angle there's not a lot you can do, although if the winch is anchored securely it should swing sideways rather than going straight back. Its not massive for a beech, and its a woodland tree, so there's not a lot of weight in the top, if you can get the rope about 2/3 of the way up a reasonable size tractor should be able to pull it back and will be much faster.

I've dealt with hung up trees back when I did proper tree work, they are unpredictable and are one of the more common causes of accidents. I'd have to say get a pro to do it, it could go horribly wrong.

If you really must use a hand winch then for gods sake take some precautions against snapping something. There's no way I'd trust a 3t winch on that tree myself, and it would be very easy to put enough force into the system to snap something - at which point the cable and or winch itself will come hurtling towards you and remove a useful part of your body.

Put something heavy on the cable and or winch etc (bag of sand??) so in event that something gives it drops to the ground and takes the sting out of it.

Big tractor, loooooong chain and pulling sideways would be my preference (via a pulley if you can't get the tractor in the right place for a side-pull). What you gonna do once you get it upright?? You reckon it'll stay there while you fell it in the normal way??

mcmoonter this weekend 😉

Hey McTreeCutter, there's a book about all the interesting ways you can die or horrifically injur yourself!

To be fair, reading that booklet, it does seem to contain major contenders for the Darwin Awards

Infest it with amphetamine fuelled woodworm.

Afternoon update. It's still standing 😀

There is no real way to get access to go for a sideways pull to the right, south side. If it went that way it would take out the potting shed and maybe the listed doocot. Swinging North would take out the pool hoose if it went wrong.

As a winch anchor I have a huge sycamore so there is no chance of it pulling up. I should be able to get 1/2-2/3 the way up the tree to fix a strap. It's sitting at more than 45 degrees towards the vertical.

I'm still head scratching.

We had some pros (scottish power subcontractors) try and take down two big sycamores which overhung a transformer. They failed to fell both trees with their saws. In the end their last option was to pull them over with Lada Niva mounted winch. Initially all that did was pull the Lada towards the tree. They eventually lashed the towball to a tree and pulled one up by the roots. The felling cut failed to give.

I'm well up for this, but am thinking my thread title may make a prophetic epitaph.

I'm in no rush to die.

It's quite a big year for the garden here, so I dont want to screw anything up. If I do need a pro, can anyone suggest someone in the Kirkcaldy - Edinburgh area? I'll do the filming.

EDIT

Hey McTreeCutter, there's a book about all the interesting ways you can die or horrifically injur yourself!

Reaches for the Yellow Pages

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uVUDmfXgEhc/TwXCsn3_idI/AAAAAAAAUTQ/VMFU_A40d28/s512/Jan%2525205%2525202011%252520004.JP G" target="_blank">https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uVUDmfXgEhc/TwXCsn3_idI/AAAAAAAAUTQ/VMFU_A40d28/s512/Jan%2525205%2525202011%252520004.JP G"/> [/img]

[img] [/img]

I thinks these bits of the booklet are relevant!

A self-employed forester was killed trying to dislodge a hung-up tree by felling another tree on top of it. When the second tree struck the hung-up tree it slid down the trunk and knocked him to the ground, crushing his chest.

Felling another tree to dislodge a hung-up tree is a recognised dangerous procedure use a winch or cant hook to dislodge hung-up trees.

A forestry chainsaw operator who had been trained in safe felling of hung-up trees suffered a broken back and broken cheekbone
while working beneath a tree. It had been left in a hung-up position when it fell on top of him.

Always bring down hung-up trees as soon as possible and never work beneath them.

A self-employed chainsaw operator died when trying to fell the supporting tree on which another tree had become hung-up.
This is a recognised dangerous practice. Using a safe system of work would have saved this man's life.

McMoonter - I have a friend who is a tree surgeon if you get stuck

TJ, I'm curious what this may cost. Can you mail me his details?

Lot of weight their, i'd imagine a Tirfor even a large on would sheer its pin before pulling that upright.

There is no real way to get access to go for a sideways pull to the right, south side. If it went that way it would take out the potting shed and maybe the listed doocot

Looking at it again I'm thinking that digging out a bit where the roots have pulled up (i.e. making a space for the roots to go back into) then winching it back might be your best bet. Is the top of the tee hanging over the house now? If so could the top be taken out first?

Frankly mcmoonter this serves you right for having a lovely looking pool house amongst all that lovely wood.
I'm not jealous in the slightest 🙁

get a low loader under the pool house floor, cut the piles, remove pool house, fell tree, replace pool house

How well hung up is it? If its hung up solid could you not take a wedge out at the back do a letter box cut then take the right side bit away then roll the tree on the remaining hinge to clear the butt then winch it back or is there not enough room and a chance if it falling and still hitting the pool house? Bit hard to tell from the pic.

I have been thinking about this most the day, and I have come to the conclusion that this can be achieved with magnets.

My mate is Stirling based and I think he may be a bit busy at the moment but I'll mail him and see what he says.

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/38162-legendary-tree-surgeon-wants-something-do-perth.html

Has the big tractor got a loader on it? That'll make it easy enough, we did a job recently pulling similar trees away from a river and lifting them over a fence as they were felled. Fork on the tractor then straps from fork to tree, job done!

I have been thinking about this most the day, and I have come to the conclusion that this can be achieved with magnets.

I was thinking mirrors.

Surely smoke and mirrors, not just mirrors?

Alternatively have you tried talking sternly to it?

Get a big dog to bark at it?

Early contender for "suspense" thread of the year!!

I'm surprised a bighitter or two haven't offered their services

(I wonder how many arbtalk members are shouting at their screens just now)

Early contender for [s]"suspense"[/s] "suspended" thread of the year!!

Fixed that for you.

Early contender for "suspense" "suspended" thread of the year!!

Fixed that for you.

It was piedi di formaggio that freaked me out!

An expert on site eye can't hurt.

I have that effect On most people!

There once was a guy called McMoonter
Who's pool house was in serious danger
He attacked with an axe
And heard a loud crack
And the pool balls all went asunder

Hmm, that's a bit crap isn't it!

have you considered a laser?

cut it up into tiny pieces, bit by bit, starting at the top

How inviting Mythbusters round with some C4?

Just set the tree on fire and burn it insitu.. its fun to set things on fire

Now being discussed on Arbtalk in general chat section.No severe slagging off yet

Tie a paracute to it and hope the wind direction changes?

Ring up the 10 Downing St and tell them <world's most wanted terrorist> is hiding in the tree.

Ring up the 10 Downing St and tell them <world's most wanted terrorist> is hiding in the tree.

I think the pool house might end up being collateral damage.

I think the pool house might end up being collateral damage.

But if he's filming it he can sell the rights to BBC/ITV/Sky.

...or at least get £250 towards rebuilding it, off You've Been Framed.

I've tried to log into/onto arbtalk in the past, and been sent an (automated) email saying it was a pro only forum. Is that the case?

Here's the thread
http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/38249-what-would-you-do-hung-up-wind-blown-content.html

Was going to discuss this on Arbtalk but figured here would be better. If you wanted to tackle felling a healthy tree I'd say go for it. I've been very surprised by the size of timber homeowners have tackled in the past. But windblown trees are very tricky for all sorts of reasons that I won't go in to here. Get a pro in... if it's just to put it on the deck for you and you tidy it up, it will be a lot cheaper than you think.

His risk, his insurance if it goes wrong, but also his expertise makes it a LOT less likely to go wrong. I'm nearly certain its a Beech tree from what I can see of it.

They don't have the best hinging properties and you need to be accurate with your cuts. Also you don't really want to be relying on the holding wood too much.

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/38162-legendary-tree-surgeon-wants-something-do-perth.html

I tried reregistering on Arbtalk. No joy yet. This sounds like the kind of expert I need to speak to. Could anyone on here put me in touch with him through the Arbtalk forum?

I think what you actually need is a helicopter. Attach strop, straight lift up, translate horizontally as necessary, put back down, job done.

How do I claim my consultant's fee?

Why not just tilt the earth a bit? Kaesae can supply the earthquakes.

You could get this guy in, seems to know a thing or two:

That's the way to do it ^

Tree down and straight onto pick up for transportation. Perfect.

You know exactly what's coming and yet humour is delivered.

Welcome to Africa where the rules of physics are different 😀

Amazing!

You know exactly what's coming and yet humour is delivered

.

what's incredible about that african clip is that you hear no laughs from the cameraman 😯

based on STW and bikes the people on a tree forum will know **** all about trees

Even my wife just said that's not the way to do it! Now that is an accolade! Mind you I might invest in one of those pickups if it had a turning circle that was going to get it out of the drive.

Just how did they all think that couldn't fail?

EDIT

Still awaiting the postman with the winch. Perfect windless day here. Feel like a kid waiting for Santa. Oh, I got on Arbtalk, and left my number with the legendary tree surgeon with time on his hands.

Arbtalk = STW with chainsaws and Unimogs. Liking it a lot!

You know exactly what's coming

Don't spoil it - I was expecting something unexpected.