I've been asked to attend a meeting in the middle east next week for a 2 hour meeting where I am unlikely to speak for more than 10 mins.
The client has asked me to go, as they did for a 3 day meeting in Germany last week for which there was zero need for me being there.
They don't have video conference facilities but I suggested talking to them on Skype via a laptop. Alternatively, the PM out there could easily stand in for me.
Should I dig my heels in or just go?
Who is paying?
What is the value to you and your company? Business, reputation and income value.
Yeah, ridiculous amount of unneccessary travelling goes on these days in the age of Skype and video conferencing. Idiotic and wasteful.
On the surface sounds completely ridiculous so propose either Skype or what's wrong with using a dial-in teleconference facility on speakerphone ? We seem to manage fine with that here.
Maybe it is seen as valuable for your company/team/whatever to be represented in the flesh? Maybe there is a possibility (even small) that some subject arises that requires your specific contribution? Maybe it is good to develop some personal contact with the other attendees?
Whatever - you're being paid to go (I guess) so enjoy the airmiles.
Who is paying?
All of us. 😥
If the client believes there is value, and they are paying then it is no different to you performing any other role for them - and I'm sure your shareholders would rather you billed them 2 days than 2 hours 🙂
could be fun...
I believe that face to face interaction in the middle eastern business world is quite important.
go, whats the worst that can happen
(Insist on flying business class though)
I'm surprised at TJ's response, when he is so anti buying anything new because of the environment and all that...
Anyhow, depends if it could be a deal breaker or not. If you know the clients well and you think they will take it on the chin, just say is it really appropiate to travel half way round the world for 10 mins of input that you could do from the UK, and the environment and all that?
or if you dont really know them, go along, get yourself and your co recognised, then at the end of the meeting repeat the above.
I used to fly from Leeds Bradford to Heathrow, just to attend meetings that lasted an hour with people in the same company, more to get to see them face to face, made things happen a lot quicker in future... Was it stupid, yes did it make my job dramatically easier, no, but it did make future telephone conversations easier when you had met face to face.
"go, whats the worst that can happen"
You could die horribly in a plane crash
It's your job, stop whinging FFS 🙄
Obviously this is totally ridiculous. But if yours is a business world where this sort of thing is accepted/ expected, then just get on with it. If it's a long term client then maybe use the opportunity to suggest & encourage alternative means of participation in meetings for future, similar situations.
It's work, just man up and get on the plane.
We use live meeting here for remote presenting but if the client cant connect for some reason or otherm, after ~10-20 mins or trying to get them on over the phone we'll sack it off and book in a demo in person the next week.
Go, enjoy the whole thing, add a day on for yourself and get the culture. If the meeting is Friday, stay for the weekend if you can organise it. Can your partner go if they pay their own way, if your staying longer? Business travel doesnt have to be all about business does it.
I've heard of worse situations.
This is business & these silly trips can make the difference.
How many business decisions are made on trust, reputation & relationship rather than a spreadsheet?
My boss flew to Tokyo for a 30 minute meeting end last year.....
It's your job, stop whinging FFS
done much travelling for work?
sometimes it's nice to feel like what you're doing is actually worth it, particularly when you are personally inconvenienced.
recently we took the decision at 10.30am that i should fly to sweden. at 12.55 i checked in for my flight at 1.30pm. at 8.30am the following morning i arrived on site, and by 9am i had located the screw my customer had dropped out of his machine, replaced it and secured it, and restored the unit to full working order.
TBF it shouldn't have come adrift in the first place ( an issue for our production dept. ), but this guy had pratted about with it, and had not followed the instructions i had written for him ( PHD Student 🙄 ). if he'd returned the unit when he threw his hands in the air it would have been there and working at the same time as i repaired it.
there was some value in me going there, but as just the expenses came to 2k, never mind my time, the environmental costs, and the fact that i didn't get home until 11.30pm on a friday night, it does all seem a bit wasteful sometimes.
all that with very little recognition from our HQ as they were embarrassed the unit had failed in the first place.
hey ho. most of the time it beats working for a living 😀
double post 😕
I always regard these things as free holidays. A couple of times I had to visit Philadelphia or South Carolina for a one day meeting. I checked the cost of the flights via New York, with a weekend stopover, and told the MD I could save £1000 by reluctantly giving up my weekend at home...
He fell for it both times. Yee Ha!
It's not a deal breaker, we have the contract. I've met them before out there, so they know who I am. We (the firm) are expected to pay for it, but didn't include it in either the contract or budget on the fixed price job.
I understand the comments about trust and face to face etc, but that aspect in tiny in this case. Not somewhere I would want to spend any more time than req and the Mrs is stuck at home looking after young 2 kids on her own.
In that case why not make a nice professional video clip of you and your colleagues saying all the right things and getting your PM to play it at the presentation.
If done well, it's quite impressive.
I did some work in UAE a few years ago and a few local clients got the hump because our company didn't have a permanent presence out there (whilst trying to establish a technical facility). There seems to be a "I want to see you NOW" approach, which is not entirely unreasonable.
In your case, they may not have thought it through. Could you not arrange other meetings / sales visits whilst you are there?
I've gone to Chicago for a 2 hour meeting. I've gone to Beijing for a 4 hour meeting (it took 3 days as I had to arrange a visa in HK en route). IMO 2 hours face to face is worth 10 times any kind of live net meeting.
If they are paying, you can afford the time, and don't care about the air fuel being burned, then go.
Unless its Saudi.
Depends if you'd want another contract or future business with them?
There are always people knocking on their doors, promising and offering to do more, etc etc.
IMO 2 hours face to face is worth 10 times any kind of live net meeting.
Totally true. We are human not machines.
It's work, just man up and get on the plane.
It's not about 'manning up', it's about the utter wastefulness of it.
That said, ART and hora are right- Skype/Videoconferencing [i]isn't[/i] the same, and if you're in a business where face-to-face meetings are important...
Wave 'Bye-Bye' to the ice caps next time you fly over them. I feel sorry for my children because they will have to deal with an effed up environment as business and industry has killed most of the planet for short term financial profit.
Wave 'Bye-Bye' to the ice caps next time you fly over them. I feel sorry for my children because they will have to deal with an effed up environment as business and industry has killed most of the planet for short term financial profit.
I take it you never use any sort of vehicle, transport or take holidays abroad then.
In addition, I think you need to talk to the US Military.
That plane is flying regardless if the OP is onboard or not. If you think 'collective responsibility' then you need to talk to the Chinese. I doubt they'd listen to you.
It's ridiculous, as the OP states :-
It's not a deal breaker, we have the contract. I've met them before out there, so they know who I am.
and
I understand the comments about trust and face to face etc, but that aspect in tiny in this case.
The amount of resources wasted + cost expended for a 10 min "face to face" participation when a dial-in conference call could suffice is just stupid. Verging on immoral IMO 🙂
Imagine if civil servants started claiming for full business class fares to the Middle East for a 2hr meeting 🙂 The Daily Wail would meltdown, and rightly so 😀
I have been to South Africa for 2 hours, Japan for an hour and Taiwan for 10 minutes! Sometimes the company just needs a man on the spot.
If a customer is potentially spending (and risking) many millions they want to see lots of engineers before they open their wallets.
However that was 10 years ago, in recent times things have changed and the long haul trips have all stopped.
Send them a picture of ice bergs and crying children then
Hora, do I need to talk to all of the US military AND all of the Chinese? Im willing to if that helps.
I take it you never use any sort of vehicle, transport or take holidays abroad then.
So because people drive, businesses shouldn't try to rationalise clearly wasteful travel? RRRRRIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHTTTTT...... 🙄
Don't worry scruff the solar activity will have changed by then!
OP - dont get advice off here. You know (or at least should know) how/if important this is for your client. You are the only one who can decide.
P-L your last post suggest two different thought processes going on in your mind?
Only on singletrack world do people complain about getting paid to travel the world.
So because people drive, businesses shouldn't try to rationalise clearly wasteful travel? RRRRRIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHTTTTT.....
Are you 100% productive every day you are in the office at work?
I don't travel 100% of my day at work.
I don't travel 100% of my day at work.
Neither do BT engineers. They spend it all sitting in their vans in lay-bys.
Only on singletrack world do people complain about getting paid to travel the world
I'm guessing you don't do business travel? Think of a normal day at work, but with 8 hours of travelling at either end and sleeping there. I thankfully don't do it very often, but there are lots of people who have no life and hardly see thier family due to vast amounts of time sat on planes, in airports or on their own in a hotel room.
Then you are looking at a work-life balance then. That is your choice. No offence (seriously, none meant) but if it grates you should change company and/or job.
Why chase money. At what point do you stop and think 'I'll die one day, better to enjoy life'?
I know someone who works almost every hour of the day and doesn't get to see where his money he earn gets spent.
What life is that?
Every situation is different and on the face of things to many would seem rediculous. However some meetings do need that personal touch that in my opinion web conferencing can't provide.
I have travelled to China, Japan and many other countries for a half day meeting before, but I have also spent far longer in my career on web conferencing.
Why chase money. At what point do you stop and think 'I'll die one day, better to enjoy life'?
amen to that.
[cliche] you'll never lie on your death bed wishing you'd spent more time at work [/cliche]
Then you are looking at a work-life balance then. That is your choice. No offence (seriously, none meant) but if it grates you should change company and/or job.
I am assuming you've not seen the state of the global economy recently? Perhaps there would be more jobs of companies didn't waste their cash on pointless flights?
My Dad died with a great deal of money in property and the bank when he died.
am assuming you've not seen the state of the global economy recently? Perhaps there would be more jobs of companies didn't waste their cash on pointless flights?
Que? 😕
That plane is flying regardless if the OP is onboard or not.
Jesus...
Que?
You suggested the OP change jobs. I was merely highlighting that there probably aren't many about right now. But if companies wasted less money on pointless trips like the OP is complaining about, then there might be more money about to employ people (unless the OP works in the airline industry, obviously)
zokes+1
The number of posters suggesting the OP just "go for it" when the trip is blatantly (to me) absurd is depressing.
Zokes if the OP is working on a contract for a client in the middle east I don't think the contract value will be peanuts/in the ballpark to take on a 17yr old etc 😉
Yes- the air tickets/hotel isn't factored into the contract cost however..
- the comment Jesus. Yes it is. Airlines need to keep their prized slots at airports and its not just passengers they carry.That plane is flying regardless if the OP is onboard or not.
In addition, ONE person isn't going to change the world.
If all the UK stopped using cars tomorrow do you really really think China would say 'we'll stop our own growth then'? Yes they did the nice noise the other week about climate change but really. Come on.
There are some nice noises being made but comments bordering on naivety as well.
Going back to the original dilemma. Is there potentially more business to be snaffled with the same client(s) after this contract has been completed?
If yes- definitely go.
If no- cough, can't make it.
If all the UK stopped using cars tomorrow do you really really think China would say 'we'll stop our own growth then'? Yes they did the nice noise the other week about climate change but really. Come on.There are some nice noises being made but comments bordering on naivety as well.
Yeah, I agree, there's no point anyone making any effort whatsoever 🙄
allthepies - Member
zokes+1The number of posters [s]suggesting the OP just "go for it" when the trip is blatantly (to me) absurd[/s] is depressing.
Yeah, I agree, there's no point anyone making any effort whatsoever
I didn't say that. I said is it worthwhile for future business with the client?
In Arab(?) circles (I don't know)- do they talk/network over who they recommend to each other?
Yeah, I agree, there's no point anyone making any effort whatsoever
There are circa 13,000,000 cars registered in China every year.
if the OP is working on a contract for a client in the middle east I don't think the contract value will be peanuts/in the ballpark to take on a 17yr old etc
There are some nice noises being made but comments bordering on naivety as well.
There are circa 13,000,000 cars registered in China every year.
So there's no point in cutting out such absurdly wasteful travel then? I see. If noone does anything, it'll all just go away mmmkay
I'm just being a huge grumpy cynic.
MrsHora has to visit alot of suppliers in China, HongKong, India etc etc and it does seem quite pointless to me personally. Living out of a suitcase.
Then again - she loves the HK downtime 
Been to Halifax (Nova Scotia, not the one oop north somewhere), for a 2 hour meeting. Twice. We did go for a 2 hour lunch, and the boss there gave us a guided tour of the city too, as well as fitting in a guided tour of the company there to make it up to a full 8 hour day.
And flights from halifax-LHR were only 3x per week, so we got a free day at company expense rather than fly back via Toronto.
Also been to a totally pointless meeting in Rome. Must have been about 6 of us fly there. Action Item #1... The guys working in Filton will sort out the issues between them and report back. End of meeting. Right, who's for an Early Lunch?
At least we use teleconferencing a lot more now.
I'm guessing you don't do business travel? Think of a normal day at work, but with 8 hours of travelling at either end and sleeping there
A 2 hour meeting is a normal day at work?