MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The FirstGroup have won the bid for the West Coast main line, beating out Virgin, meaning they can run it until 2026.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/15/virgin-trains-west-coast-mainline-firstgroup
The news has made Bob Crow sad.
Virgin were pretty good by UK train standards IMO. First, not so much - Their transpennine express is woeful.
Does anyone know if Virgin own the rolling stock? Or do First get to take it over and paint the pendolinos purple?
Angel Trains (a ROSCO) own the rolling stock (Pendolinos were built by Alstom with the WCML in mind) and lease to Virgin (well, technically the current franchisee of the WCML).
I think it was a vanilla lease, so there will likely be a mechanism which allows the new franchisee to take the lease of the existing rolling stock (which makes sense, given that it would be pretty pointless running them anywhere else and I can't think of any replacement stock).
First will just change the livery.
A sad day in my opinion (both professionally and as a passenger).
All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn't it?
🙁 I'll echo the sentiment above, always thought Virgin did a decent job, First on the otherhand I've never been impressed with.
Virgin were ok I seem to remember.
However First Great Western are ok too I think, Swansea to London at least. No real issues apart from overcrowding.
I find First Scotrail to be very good and they regularly get customer service awards.
All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn't it?
Virgin were a long way ahead of what we used to call a rail service
Given the responses on Twitter, First must be really bad because ive never had a nice experience on a Virgin train.
As above, I was disappointed to hear this this morning - Virgin had done a great job on the west coast, travelling with them was a revelation compared to most train operators back in the early days of their lease. I now live elsewhere, but use transpennine express occasionally, which is invariably crap - late, overcrowded etc... a recent trip up to glasgow on virgin on the west coast line revealed they still do a better job than just about any other operator.
I find First Scotrail to be very good and they regularly get customer service awards.
The Scotrail franchise is an anomaly in First's portfolio. They are actually well regarded by passengers and performance is good. There is a very different attitude to the Scotrail franchise compared to other sectors they are involved in.
hopefully the fascist bike policy will change.
The Virgin trains themselves were fine apart from the stinky toilets - apparently the waste tanks had a layer of foam on top of them to stop the stink getting out but when they went round corners it used to slop over and fill the carriage with the smell. Bleeargh.
The food available was overpriced and nasty, the wifi was crap too.
But they were quick and cheap relative to the East coast main line and largely ran on time which is the main thing.
[i]All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn't it? [/i]
Don't be silly, privatisation is wonderful. You get all the efficiencies that only profit driven enterprise can give with extremely motivated staff continually exceeding targets and expectations.
It's so good we will soon see all these improvements in health, social care, policing, schools etc.
First Group are horrible. Look forward to neat tricks like big trumpeted claims of increased capacity, when what has actually happened is that trains have been shortened by a carriage, and seat legroom massively reduced to cram in more people. Oh, and if you're travelling late in the evening, then you're clearly scum who should be squashed into the smallest train possible, even if the nearby national stadium has just discharged 90,000 people, a lot of whom plan to get home.
As a regular user of FGW, I would say they are terrible......
Consistently manipulate statistics to artificialy boost their performance
woeful customer service, I've been diverted and dumped by FGW at a station 15 miles from my booked journey (with no ongoing transport arranged dispite FGW saying for the previous 3 hrs that it had been arranged)
frequent cancellations, short trains, I could go on but the occassions when they get it right do not make up for the when it goes wrong
you can accept that things go wrong..... however how good a company is shown by what they do then... FGW shows its true colours and fails....
Virgin were a long way ahead of what we used to call a rail service
If I recall correctly, they started off pretty shit. And then they dragged themselves all the way to roughly average, which is better than shit but still years behind a good chunk of Europe. While I have some sympathies for Virgin, I can't but see karma giggling as it kicks them up the arse after quietly fleecing the tax payer with their Northern Rock deal. 🙂
Well, that's depressing reading given that my partner and I are at opposite ends of the country for the next 18 months and use that service weekly.
From Theresa Villiers' closing paragraph,
"This new franchise will deliver big improvements for passengers, with more seats and plans for more services. Targets to meet on passenger satisfaction will be introduced for the first time in an InterCity rail franchise and passengers will also benefit from smart ticketing and from investment in stations."
More seats = less room, and cattle class is packed already.
Smart ticketing = give a damn when I'm on a train?
Investment in stations = give a damn when I'm on a train?
Great.
branson reckons 1st have overpaid and will end up having to go back to the government
sounds like sour grapes but its not the first time its happened
They'll default within 5 years I reckons.
Total disaster. They're promising to invest in some new stock though, I'll wager they'll conveniently do some slightly cunning contract negotiations on that to ensure that the DfT can't boot them out as easily when it goes wrong.
[i] with more seats [/i]
Yep, that sounds like the exact trick First have pulled on the Great Western line. They went from relatively comfy old Intercity seats, to horrible plasticy things with substantially less legroom. I can't even get my knees into the things.
[b]deadlydarcy[/b] - Member
All part of the race to the bottom that rail privatisation has brought us. Fantastic isn't it?
Agreed, big time.
I've been a rail/public transport commuter for 25 years, mostly in the UK but also in the US, Switzerland and Singapore. Without a shadow of a doubt privatisation in the UK has been a disaster in terms of service and cost (add in the cost of parking which has increased massively, in the US the car park was free if you had a season ticket). The rail companies are making millions from property transactions selling off land for housing.
BTW Bob Crow is part of the problem, he earns well over £100k and lives in a council house. His members are fabulously well paid and have lavish pensions, just like the Greek equivalents.
If I recall correctly, they started off pretty shit.
They did, but then they started off trying to run a train service using the mess of worn out equipment left behind by British Rail. Since then there's been massive investment in both the infrastructure and the rolling stock and when I've used it it's been pretty good. I don't hold much hope for further improvements under First Group though.
add in the cost of parking which has increased massively, in the US the car park was free if you had a season ticket
And you have to wait for the daily (if you're lucky) train, which then runs many hours late with absolutely no particular justification.
Our service is far from perfect, but I'd far sooner that than the US service. Even their sole 'flag ship' route - the NEC - isn't great, and everything else is really really crap!
The comments about privatisation are the opposite if what said yesterday on the Jeremy Vine show by current rail staff phoning in who used to be British Rail. They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn't be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks. This was a similar arguement to what the passengers said who continue to use the trains pre and post privatisation. The women who came on arguing for the rails to be nationalised again in the wake of expected fare increases received no support.
As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.
Pendolinos are italian designed by fiat and built by Alstom, and being a fixed formaton cant be easily adapted to fit more coaches on, there is also the length of the platforms to consider.#
First are also selling off their bus intrests bit by bit, chester and birkenhead are up for sale along with others, possibly to pay for the trains .
What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day, not stupid book a month in advance, and travel cheaper than somebody siting in the seat next to you that bought the ticket that day.
Free parking at stations for rail users, more space on trains for bikes.
jambalaya - MemberAgreed, big time.
I've been a rail/public transport commuter for 25 years, mostly in the UK but also in the US, Switzerland and Singapore.
Did you know there are as many train run in Kent on the average day as all of Switzerland? Or so some a rail expert on the radio last year.
They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn't be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks.
They are probably right, because of lack of investment in the railways over the decades, by various Governments. But privatisation as a way of solving it was nothing short of criminal. I can think think of few other countries on the planet that operate the rail system this way.
What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,
That's not even close to being possible.
Most people want to travel at peak times, that's why they call them peak times! And that's also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.
Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they're bored?
First are stupidly expensive on the GW line though. Peak return from Reading to Bristol is an astonishing £122. It's barely 75 miles! Unsuprisingly those trains run almost empty, while the M4 clogs
I've been commuting a couple of days a week with Virgin from Stoke to London for the past 8 months. Apart from the ticket prices being a bit steep(but work pays), I have had a pretty good service from them. Rarely been late, generally early into London. The trains could sometimes do with a bit better cleaning but thats about it.
It has improved over the past few months as they have had some new pendolino rolling stock with 11 cars rather than 9, and the older trains are having the extra 2 carraiges added. It makes a massive difference as a season ticket holder as you will always get a seat, even on the peak trains.
It will be interesting to see what happens come the end of the year.
Oh - don't listen to anyone who tells you that the pre-privatised rail service was some model of efficiency, cleanliness or punctuality. It was rubbish. However, you need to consider what [i]might[/i] have been achieved with a decent amount of government investment and without the need to pay a dividend to shareholders. Whether that would ever have been forthcoming is an idealogical discussion that goes far beyond what sort of train service we get.They all said that without the privatisation they would still using the rolling stock from 1955 modernisation plan and they wouldn't be anywhere near as many trains on the tracks.
What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,Most people want to travel at peak times, that's why they call them peak times! And that's also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.
Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they're bored?
But passengers who travel for leisure have the choice of when to travel, if im driving for leisure i avoid the rush hour its simple, do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.
NO.
As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.
never used their trains but an expert on staff attitude and ticketing systems?
Oh and Virgin knew the train franchise would be re tendered as are all the train tenders, so stop moaning richard, and do something else.
BigButSlimmerBloke - Member
As a life long rail enthusiast, a few points, ive never been on a virgin train , their ticketing system and staff attitude are poor, and expensive,a lot of trains run empty, due to high seat costs.
never used their trains but an expert on staff attitude and ticketing systems?
Rung them many times, and theyre expensive, dont answer the phone, are slow with information, and have over complicated ticketing.
If my experiences of FGW are anything to go by then I suspect the West Coast is going to be bobbins. The service, on the whole, is appalling. Trains are constantly late, sometimes never turning up at all. Hideous service. Never used Virgin but the reports from colleagues that have used them have been very positive. Feel sorry for those that have got used to the Virgin service as I fear it may well get a lot worse.
[quote=project ] do car parks charge more for busy times.
NO.
Actually, some do. Many have an hourly rate during the daytime but you can leave a car overnight/evening for a fraction of that.
I travelled via Virgin to Exeter last year. The train I was on left late, then got held up somewhere waiting for the change-over driver. Eventually, we were so far behind that they decided to merge the service I was on with the one behind. That would have been fine except that I'd booked a bike space and it was only through sheer bluddy determination that I managed to get my bike on the following service.
Overall, I didn't see anything to commend them.
do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.NO.
That's simply not true. Have you never tried to park near a concert venue when there's a concert on?
Many car parks offer different rates for overnight parking, or other peak / off peak rates parking. The one next to Preston train station is £10/day on weekdays and £2/day at weekends, as a random on-topic example.
Pub fluctuate drinks prices all the time. Drinks are often cheaper midweek ("happy hour" etc) to encourage more customers in quiet periods. Shops ram up prices at busy times and have sales at quieter ones (though this is seasonal rather than hourly, usually).
They're all in this to make as much money as possible. They'll charge whatever price gives them the best return, and in the case of train fairs it will be precisely calculated. It's not in their best interest to run an empty train, every empty seat is a lost sale; conversely, a train full to bursting means they can get away with charging more.
But passengers who travel for leisure have the choice of when to travel, if im driving for leisure i avoid the rush hour its simple, do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.
Rail is a bit different though - as long as you can get a seat the service is identical so there's less disincentive to travel at peak times when you don't need to vs sitting in a traffic jam for an hour or waiting in a long queue at lunch time in Tesco.
However ticket prices are pretty mental (at least on FGW) and if First group have over-bidded £750m and have promised investment/improvements then surely it's going to get worse.
Mind you as they're bailing out on the FGW contract early as they can't afford to run it for the price they paid then you do have to feel a bit sorry for Branson when he gets out-bid all the time by people that can't afford to run it at the bid price. There should be penalty clauses built in not get out of jail free clauses and prior history should come into it, you screw up one contract and hand it back early and that should count hugely against you on the next one you bid on.
do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times
Do shops sell less popular things at discounts?
Do shops sell loss-leaders to gain footfall?
It's not in their best interest to run an empty train, every empty seat is a lost sale; conversely, a train full to bursting means they can get away with charging more.
It's in their interest to run a 20% full train at £100 a ticket rather than a full one at £20 a ticket, though. Less staffing, less cleaning, etc etc. Never mind the fact that the other 80% of people either can't travel or clog up the roads.
I used Virgin daily for 5 years. Superb if expensive.
Shame, and I feel that Branson is right. Unfortunately I think he shoots himself in the foot sometimes by appearing reckless and fickle.
That Branson blog post reckons that:
[i]The East Coast is still in Government ownership and its service is outdated and underinvested, costing passengers and the country dearly as a result.[/i]
Does anyone know where to find info on the ECML performance? I have travelled by both WC and EC main lines and generally find the EC services to be spacious, frequent and running to time, they are no more expensive than other trains. They seem to use some old trains, alongside their new rolling stock, that have been revamped which are massive and have huge luggage capacity, nothing that Virgin trains can boast.
^
here is basic required public reporting data
[url= http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/about-us/passengers-charter1/performance-delivery-reporting/ ]ECML[/url]
I've seen plenty of franchise/concession performance data, some of it may be FOIAble, but to be honest, unless you REALLY know the industry and the contract, much of it would be meaningless. I've been involved in plenty of franchise/concession bids and operational schemes and i don't understand the implications of most reporting data until it's been worked through by SDG etc.
As an unfortunate user of First Great Western’s service between Bristol and Paddington over the last 3 years, with occasional journeys by Virgin trains up north, I can say that truly feel sorry for those of you who are about to suffer the pleasures of First Group and its wonderful service. Check out thier FB page if you want a laugh!
But on the positive side you will back on a nationalised rail service before you know it 😉
What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,That's not even close to being possible.
Most people want to travel at peak times, that's why they call them peak times! And that's also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.
Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they're bored?
Shirley its not that unfeasable. Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.
I can see somewhat of the reasoning behind it but the difference in price is obscene.
Preston to London return: Off peak - £78
Peak - £255
Thats a rip off in anyones book!
First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one. An absolute shower and one of the reasons why I'm glad I no longer commute into London.
[i]First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one.[/i]
Why, the contract allowed this - and like most suppliers its not them that create the contract but the customer. If you had a car on lease that you know either didn't need or could afford and could hand it back - you would.
The biggest problem with the whole bid issue is having to lease the trains from Angel (or the like). They are the ones who've made massive profits from privatisation, and continue to do so.
Anyone interested should read:
Stagecoach: A Classic Rags to Riches Tale from the Frontiers of Capitalism [Paperback]
In there Brian Souter talks about why privatisation of buses/trains failed to deliver. And this was written back in 1999.
I travelled via Virgin to Exeter last year
Not all the way you didn't... Cross Country are an Arriva franchise (formerly Virgin), Great Western is First and South West Trains is Stagecoach, you'd not have got south of London with Virgin?
First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one. An absolute shower and one of the reasons why I'm glad I no longer commute into London.
You thinking of National Express? Who lost NXEA to Abellio and handed back NX East Coast?
Shirley its not that unfeasable. Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.
Capitalism though innit. Trains are full to bursting at peak times, despite the extortionate fares. Why charge less? Crap as it is.
Trains are full to bursting at peak times, despite the extortionate fares. why charge less?
because the railways are supposed to be regulated.
so stop moaning richard
I didn't hear him moan, I just heard him explain why they lost the bid. Presumably for the benefit of his business reputation.
do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.NO.
Sale now on!
New season stock in!
Yes, they do exactly that. Just not a different times of the day. Their pricing model is every bit as highly tuned as the travel industry, it's just that they generally have so many products you can't keep track of a particular shirt or pair of shoes over time. You can with stuff like computers and tellies though, but even then it's a totally different business because they are selling an actual physical thing that has to have been manufactured up front.
Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.
I'm guessing their governments subsidise them more. And in any case I seem to remember the S-Bahn local Munich trains having peak and off-peak tickets.
But as above - peak UK trains are packed as it is, so why charge less? (from a capitalist perspective)
Thats a rip off in anyones book!
If 20,000 people want to get to London at 9am Monday, and there are only 1,000 seats, what're you gonna do? Lottery?
Add more carriages :p
Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.
I'm guessing their governments subsidise them more. And in any case I seem to remember the S-Bahn local Munich trains having peak and off-peak tickets.
Probably a regional thing, and the local transport company/companies.
Think RMV (Frankfurt area) is single tariff all day (I only use bus/tram, never had a need to use train).
What is a bit different to UK is that most transport in one area is run by 1 "cooperative". NL was similar (at least for bus/tram). So I think 1 ticket from 1 zone to any another in the region is valid on pretty much any form of transport (train, s-bahn, tram, bus, shared taxi, etc.) run by all companies affiliated to that "cooperative".
Add more carriages :p
How're people going to get on and off when the platforms aren't long enough?
Surprised to see that so many prefer Virgin to FGW. My experience is that the FGW have far better cycle and luggage storage, and more legroom. An advance off-peak return from Bristol to London is £25.
Virgin trains have luggage spilling into the ailes, stinky toilets, no leg room and dreadful bike storage. First class with the table service is nicer than FGW (if they still do that?) but is £££.
I swear FGW have more room in First.. and the seats are old but better seats.
Handsomedog - Member
That Branson blog post reckons that:The East Coast is still in Government ownership and its service is outdated and underinvested, costing passengers and the country dearly as a result.
Does anyone know where to find info on the ECML performance? I have travelled by both WC and EC main lines and generally find the EC services to be spacious, frequent and running to time, they are no more expensive than other trains. They seem to use some old trains, alongside their new rolling stock, that have been revamped which are massive and have huge luggage capacity, nothing that Virgin trains can boast.
That is my experience as well - the journey is a much more pleasant as the seats and carriages are (or at least appear) bigger. First class is nicer on the east coast too.
Only used Virgin a few times, but really impressed by the service.
I travelled between Reading and Bristol with FGW every week when I was at Uni, they were usually utterly crap. Only advantage was that it was free, and 1st class. Virgin far nicer IMO, used to use the WCML for work a reasonable amount and always found them very good.
Add more carriages :p
If only.
The biggest problem with the whole bid issue is having to lease the trains from Angel (or the like). They are the ones who've made massive profits from privatisation, and continue to do so.
Nice idea, but doesn't really work as easily as most people think.
If the franchisee has to factor in rolling stock manufacture to its bid, how will that offer better VFM? Franchises are considerably shorter in length than rolling stock servicable life, so how to you price for potentially losing the franchise after 10 years but still sitting with £600m+ of rolling stock with 15+ years left plus maintenance? There's not much of a resale market, particularly for network specific trains.
Even if you managed to line up the rolling stock life with franchise length, the franchisee would still have to finance the rolling stock, meaning that instead of a ROSCO making a profit, it will go to a lending bank instead. In effect, ROSCOs are just financiers who sit with residual value risk.
The alternative, and one which I've done a couple of times, is where the authority (Transport Scotland/DfT) buys the rolling stock and leases it back to the franchisee. However, this carries with it a few significant problems, in particular the residual value risk and the fact that (a) no one has any capital to throw down hundreds of millions on rolling stock and (b) it sits on balance sheet.
It does work well in some jurisdictions though, where the model is better established. At the moment, ROSCOs still offer better overall VFM v risk for rolling stock and maintenance packages.
I never really minded FGW. Sure there were some cancelled trains, but isn't there always. It wasn't often.
Stagecoach: A Classic Rags to Riches Tale from the Frontiers of Capitalism [Paperback]In there Brian Souter talks about why privatisation of buses/trains failed to deliver. And this was written back in 1999.
Read that book and very good it is as well could do with an update though.
and surprise surprise Stagecoach also has a majority share in Virgin rail/trains.
Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.
Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.
a self made man, and sister team, who started running deregulated coaches from Scotland, who believes in unions and allows them in his companies, who gives a lot of cash to charity, who is a multimillionaire, has a pcv licence and actually drove coaches and buses , and worked as a conductor while working to get his accountancy qualifications.
Thats my opinion.Read the book above.
Personally I preferred scotrail pre-first group, in fact I rarely take the train now, but that is partly because it is cheaper for me to drive the route I used to get the train on.
[quote=project ]
a self made man, and sister team, who started running deregulated coaches from Scotland, who believes in unions and allows them in his companies, who gives a lot of cash to charity, who is a multimillionaire, has a pcv licence and actually drove coaches and buses , and worked as a conductor while working to get his accountancy qualifications.
Thats my opinion.Read the book above.
Does the book include his stance on gay rights or his sisters interpretation of the Land Reform Act?
Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.
True, a truly evil man.
Does the book include his stance on gay rights or his sisters interpretation of the Land Reform Act?
it includes his beliefs about gays and they stem from the brainwashing of his relegion.
Lots of people have views on gay rights,not just multi millionaires who own bus comapnies.
Have no idea about the land reform act.
they stem from the brainwashing of his relegion
Should large chunks of the UK's transport infrastructure really be in the hands of "brainwashed" individuals ?
He's not stupid mind, last year he awarded himself a 35% pay rise. Not bad at a time when most people are being told to make scarifies.
as a director he will have been awarded the pay rise,
the governmnet is run by brainwashed individuals some with the soap still in their ears so they cant hear what people are saying.
the governmnet is run by brainwashed individuals some with the soap still in their ears so they cant hear what people are saying.
What, evangelical christians who hate homosexuals ?
He has never said he hates Gay people, but he did pay for a referendum in scotlandshire about the repeal of section 28, that was started by thatcher, who just seemed to hate everyone.
Thats his belief fostered by his church, he is allowed his own rights and feelings, only when people express violence or the threat of violence or positve discrimination does it matter in the eyes of the law.
Now can we just talk overpriced train fares.
Being a selfish sod , Im quite happy 'First' won the bid as I'm a Scotrail driver and will now get free travel to London. Hopefully for the existing Virgin employees it will just mean a change of uniform and no redundancies.
First are a much bigger player than National Express who handed back the East Coast franchise so we will have to wait and see what happens.
he is allowed his own rights and feelings
According to you he has been brainwashed, so they can hardly be described as his "own rights and feelings". Presumably they are someone else's.
everyone of us is brainwashed to believe certain morals and ideas in life,either by religion, parents, peer group, or family, they then become our rights and feelings, thats why some people mis guidedly voted conservative, and some liberal, why some buy german cars, and some have a fear of the working classes.
stop moaning richard, and do something else.
Don't panic Project, Virgin healthcare is already making inroads into the health service. Of course, as the government tell us, it's [b]not[/b] privatisation, but I am not really sure how [url= http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1141161/Devon-GPs-hit-Virgin-wins-45m-childrens-services-deal/ ]Virgin healthcare taking over NHS provision of children's services in Devon[/url] (oh, [url= http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1124892/Virgin-community-services-Surrey-500m-deal/ ]and community services in Surrey[/url]) is all that diferent from them running a previously nationalised railway serice.
back in the day there were lots of train companys competing with each other, but the shareholders wanted max profit so investment was cut, and lo and behold the thing collapsed and had to be taken over by the state.......sound familiar
everyone of us is brainwashed
No such thing as personal choice then?
[quote=molgrips ]
No such thing as personal choice then?
I don't know. Is there?