[Closed] Trains - virgin loses west coast mainline

As an unfortunate user of First Great Western’s service between Bristol and Paddington over the last 3 years, with occasional journeys by Virgin trains up north, I can say that truly feel sorry for those of you who are about to suffer the pleasures of First Group and its wonderful service. Check out thier FB page if you want a laugh!

But on the positive side you will back on a nationalised rail service before you know it 😉

What First need to do is make a standard fare, no matter what time of day, get the trains full all day,

That's not even close to being possible.

Most people want to travel at peak times, that's why they call them peak times! And that's also why they discount fares at off-peak times, to encourage those who can travel then to do so.

Honestly, do you think they make this stuff up because they're bored?

Shirley its not that unfeasable. Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.

I can see somewhat of the reasoning behind it but the difference in price is obscene.

Preston to London return: Off peak - £78
Peak - £255

Thats a rip off in anyones book!

First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one. An absolute shower and one of the reasons why I'm glad I no longer commute into London.

[i]First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one.[/i]

Why, the contract allowed this - and like most suppliers its not them that create the contract but the customer. If you had a car on lease that you know either didn't need or could afford and could hand it back - you would.

The biggest problem with the whole bid issue is having to lease the trains from Angel (or the like). They are the ones who've made massive profits from privatisation, and continue to do so.

Anyone interested should read:

Stagecoach: A Classic Rags to Riches Tale from the Frontiers of Capitalism [Paperback]

In there Brian Souter talks about why privatisation of buses/trains failed to deliver. And this was written back in 1999.

I travelled via Virgin to Exeter last year

Not all the way you didn't... Cross Country are an Arriva franchise (formerly Virgin), Great Western is First and South West Trains is Stagecoach, you'd not have got south of London with Virgin?

First should not have been allowed to tender far any more rail services after they handed back the East Anglia one. An absolute shower and one of the reasons why I'm glad I no longer commute into London.

You thinking of National Express? Who lost NXEA to Abellio and handed back NX East Coast?

Shirley its not that unfeasable. Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.

Capitalism though innit. Trains are full to bursting at peak times, despite the extortionate fares. Why charge less? Crap as it is.

Trains are full to bursting at peak times, despite the extortionate fares. why charge less?

because the railways are supposed to be regulated.

so stop moaning richard

I didn't hear him moan, I just heard him explain why they lost the bid. Presumably for the benefit of his business reputation.

do shops suddenly put up prices at their busiest times, do car parks charge more for busy times.

NO.

Sale now on!
New season stock in!

Yes, they do exactly that. Just not a different times of the day. Their pricing model is every bit as highly tuned as the travel industry, it's just that they generally have so many products you can't keep track of a particular shirt or pair of shoes over time. You can with stuff like computers and tellies though, but even then it's a totally different business because they are selling an actual physical thing that has to have been manufactured up front.

Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.

I'm guessing their governments subsidise them more. And in any case I seem to remember the S-Bahn local Munich trains having peak and off-peak tickets.

But as above - peak UK trains are packed as it is, so why charge less? (from a capitalist perspective)

Thats a rip off in anyones book!

If 20,000 people want to get to London at 9am Monday, and there are only 1,000 seats, what're you gonna do? Lottery?

Add more carriages :p

Switzerland has a flat price for train ticket regardless of when you travel. Im pretty sure they do in Germany too.

I'm guessing their governments subsidise them more. And in any case I seem to remember the S-Bahn local Munich trains having peak and off-peak tickets.

What is a bit different to UK is that most transport in one area is run by 1 "cooperative". NL was similar (at least for bus/tram). So I think 1 ticket from 1 zone to any another in the region is valid on pretty much any form of transport (train, s-bahn, tram, bus, shared taxi, etc.) run by all companies affiliated to that "cooperative".

Add more carriages :p

How're people going to get on and off when the platforms aren't long enough?

Surprised to see that so many prefer Virgin to FGW. My experience is that the FGW have far better cycle and luggage storage, and more legroom. An advance off-peak return from Bristol to London is £25.

Virgin trains have luggage spilling into the ailes, stinky toilets, no leg room and dreadful bike storage. First class with the table service is nicer than FGW (if they still do that?) but is £££.

I swear FGW have more room in First.. and the seats are old but better seats.

Handsomedog - Member
That Branson blog post reckons that:

The East Coast is still in Government ownership and its service is outdated and underinvested, costing passengers and the country dearly as a result.

Does anyone know where to find info on the ECML performance? I have travelled by both WC and EC main lines and generally find the EC services to be spacious, frequent and running to time, they are no more expensive than other trains. They seem to use some old trains, alongside their new rolling stock, that have been revamped which are massive and have huge luggage capacity, nothing that Virgin trains can boast.

That is my experience as well - the journey is a much more pleasant as the seats and carriages are (or at least appear) bigger. First class is nicer on the east coast too.

Only used Virgin a few times, but really impressed by the service.

I travelled between Reading and Bristol with FGW every week when I was at Uni, they were usually utterly crap. Only advantage was that it was free, and 1st class. Virgin far nicer IMO, used to use the WCML for work a reasonable amount and always found them very good.

Add more carriages :p

If only.

The biggest problem with the whole bid issue is having to lease the trains from Angel (or the like). They are the ones who've made massive profits from privatisation, and continue to do so.

Nice idea, but doesn't really work as easily as most people think.

If the franchisee has to factor in rolling stock manufacture to its bid, how will that offer better VFM? Franchises are considerably shorter in length than rolling stock servicable life, so how to you price for potentially losing the franchise after 10 years but still sitting with £600m+ of rolling stock with 15+ years left plus maintenance? There's not much of a resale market, particularly for network specific trains.

Even if you managed to line up the rolling stock life with franchise length, the franchisee would still have to finance the rolling stock, meaning that instead of a ROSCO making a profit, it will go to a lending bank instead. In effect, ROSCOs are just financiers who sit with residual value risk.

The alternative, and one which I've done a couple of times, is where the authority (Transport Scotland/DfT) buys the rolling stock and leases it back to the franchisee. However, this carries with it a few significant problems, in particular the residual value risk and the fact that (a) no one has any capital to throw down hundreds of millions on rolling stock and (b) it sits on balance sheet.

It does work well in some jurisdictions though, where the model is better established. At the moment, ROSCOs still offer better overall VFM v risk for rolling stock and maintenance packages.

I never really minded FGW. Sure there were some cancelled trains, but isn't there always. It wasn't often.

Stagecoach: A Classic Rags to Riches Tale from the Frontiers of Capitalism [Paperback]

In there Brian Souter talks about why privatisation of buses/trains failed to deliver. And this was written back in 1999.

Read that book and very good it is as well could do with an update though.

and surprise surprise Stagecoach also has a majority share in Virgin rail/trains.

Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.

Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.

a self made man, and sister team, who started running deregulated coaches from Scotland, who believes in unions and allows them in his companies, who gives a lot of cash to charity, who is a multimillionaire, has a pcv licence and actually drove coaches and buses , and worked as a conductor while working to get his accountancy qualifications.

Thats my opinion.Read the book above.

Personally I preferred scotrail pre-first group, in fact I rarely take the train now, but that is partly because it is cheaper for me to drive the route I used to get the train on.

[quote=project ]
a self made man, and sister team, who started running deregulated coaches from Scotland, who believes in unions and allows them in his companies, who gives a lot of cash to charity, who is a multimillionaire, has a pcv licence and actually drove coaches and buses , and worked as a conductor while working to get his accountancy qualifications.
Thats my opinion.Read the book above.
Does the book include his stance on gay rights or his sisters interpretation of the Land Reform Act?

Souter is a particularly nasty piece of work.

True, a truly evil man.

Does the book include his stance on gay rights or his sisters interpretation of the Land Reform Act?

it includes his beliefs about gays and they stem from the brainwashing of his relegion.

Lots of people have views on gay rights,not just multi millionaires who own bus comapnies.

Have no idea about the land reform act.

they stem from the brainwashing of his relegion

Should large chunks of the UK's transport infrastructure really be in the hands of "brainwashed" individuals ?

He's not stupid mind, last year he awarded himself a 35% pay rise. Not bad at a time when most people are being told to make scarifies.

as a director he will have been awarded the pay rise,
the governmnet is run by brainwashed individuals some with the soap still in their ears so they cant hear what people are saying.

the governmnet is run by brainwashed individuals some with the soap still in their ears so they cant hear what people are saying.

What, evangelical christians who hate homosexuals ?

He has never said he hates Gay people, but he did pay for a referendum in scotlandshire about the repeal of section 28, that was started by thatcher, who just seemed to hate everyone.

Thats his belief fostered by his church, he is allowed his own rights and feelings, only when people express violence or the threat of violence or positve discrimination does it matter in the eyes of the law.

Now can we just talk overpriced train fares.

Being a selfish sod , Im quite happy 'First' won the bid as I'm a Scotrail driver and will now get free travel to London. Hopefully for the existing Virgin employees it will just mean a change of uniform and no redundancies.
First are a much bigger player than National Express who handed back the East Coast franchise so we will have to wait and see what happens.

he is allowed his own rights and feelings

According to you he has been brainwashed, so they can hardly be described as his "own rights and feelings". Presumably they are someone else's.

everyone of us is brainwashed to believe certain morals and ideas in life,either by religion, parents, peer group, or family, they then become our rights and feelings, thats why some people mis guidedly voted conservative, and some liberal, why some buy german cars, and some have a fear of the working classes.

stop moaning richard, and do something else.

Don't panic Project, Virgin healthcare is already making inroads into the health service. Of course, as the government tell us, it's [b]not[/b] privatisation, but I am not really sure how [url= http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1141161/Devon-GPs-hit-Virgin-wins-45m-childrens-services-deal/ ]Virgin healthcare taking over NHS provision of children's services in Devon[/url] (oh, [url= http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1124892/Virgin-community-services-Surrey-500m-deal/ ]and community services in Surrey[/url]) is all that diferent from them running a previously nationalised railway serice.

back in the day there were lots of train companys competing with each other, but the shareholders wanted max profit so investment was cut, and lo and behold the thing collapsed and had to be taken over by the state.......sound familiar

everyone of us is brainwashed

No such thing as personal choice then?

[quote=molgrips ]
No such thing as personal choice then?
I don't know. Is there?

Thats my opinion.Read the book above.

My opinion is that Souter built his empire by aggressively undercutting local operators (at a loss) until they died, and then put prices back up, in clear opposition to the public interest and the interests of drivers who are now beholden to a single company. My opinion is shared by the Monopoly and Mergers Commission, which is rather more objective than your silly book link.

And he hates gays.

sounds like a run o the mill tory

project - Member

everyone of us is brainwashed

So that's everyone of us plus the government then ? Remember.....

project - Member

the governmnet is run by brainwashed individuals

The chief brainwasher must be having a right laugh.

I don't know. Is there?

Don't ask me, I'm a pluralist.

everyone of us is brainwashed to believe certain morals and ideas in life,either by religion, parents, peer group, or family, they then become our rights and feelings, thats why some people mis guidedly voted conservative, and some liberal, why some buy german cars, and some have a fear of the working classes.

Funny thing this railway lark, its twenty years since john major privatised the railway ---- and what have we got, a subsidy four times grater than BR, a debt that is seven times bigger than BR, fares as high as ever, and now we have private bus and air firms squabling over the franchises, oh and the german and french state owned railways are coining it as well, can't blame them--- in all the developed world railways are treated as essential to economic activity, here its treated like a problem

UK plc want s to build a new line from london to Birmingham then oop north and the natives who live near the new line are all do the nimby dance of fear.

In France they just do it, for the benefit of the people and freight.

My opinion is that Souter built his empire by aggressively undercutting local operators (at a loss) until they died, and then put prices back up, in clear opposition to the public interest and the interests of drivers who are now beholden to a single company. My opinion is shared by the Monopoly and Mergers Commission, which is rather more objective than your silly book link.

AND thats what the books says as well, but thats capitalism, where bigger companies take over smaller comapnies, just reading a book now about the privatisation of the bus and coach market, and it appears that if a small local bus firm closed down , or was sold a local competitor would buy it, with no one from outside thwe local area bidding, Stagecoach changed all that, and built up a multimillion pound company.

Thats progress.

Thats progress.

Have you used Stagecoach?

Railways should be nationalised and subsidised so they are cheaper than car travel.

East coat Railway is.

Most train operating comapnies are subsidised as well some more than others.