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I'm normally too numb by that point to even consider it.
The sole purpose of endurance training is to raise the pace at which you have to endure the suffering
I hate it sometimes, but that's just when I'm riding like crap - not so much to do with the weather. When it's hard going I just get smug about taking on the weather and winning.
even when it's miserable I love it.
You are a labrador, and I claim my 5 doggie treats.
*whos a goood booy then!*
Kick me Jamie, I need to suffer for this 🙂
You need to suffer for starting arguments about diet on here all the time..!
I'm normally too numb by that point to even consider it.
making a doubly difficult challenge you need to man up and also possibly eat some white carbs upon your return from the ride so you have enough energy to complete the activities described within the mantra
Kick me Jamie, I need to suffer for this
I fear we may be going slightly off topic.
*pats on head*
My Mrs doesn't let me though alex...
MOlly what else are we going to chew the fat about?
iDave - surely you enjoy the suffering??
MOlly what else are we going to chew the fat about?
*awkward silence*
So.. I installed Windows 8 on a VM on an external hd this morning.. Oracle Virtualbox is really nice...
only losers have 'real life' girlfriends.
[url= http://i.imgur.com/gVUd1.jp g" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/gVUd1.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
TSY - I'll show you on Sunday how much I love the suffering
Have you sponsored her yet?
Okay... back on topic...
Does anyone else have little things they say to themselves when they're hurting?
I like "this is when I get stronger" works best with a wry smile when your legs are at their limit.
Does anyone else have little things they say to themselves when they're hurting?
Yes.
"Balls to this...TAXI!"
I just say "Shut up Legs" in a Jens Voigt way .
I just pretend I am on a solo breakaway in a TdF stage. Seriously. It works too, for about 5 mins.
'Legs, legs, legs'
Inspirational eh. Stops my cadence dropping right off when I'm running a long way.
When I was climbing I occasionally made use of 'come on arms, do your stuff'. Bonus point for non-googled source.
Does anyone else have little things they say to themselves when they're hurting?
No.
Saying things to yourself just wastes energy you should be using to bring the horizon closer. Chuck Norris once thanked me for explaining this to him.
I'm afraid Chuck Norris is unavailable for comment, being engaged in a furious 3-way tussle with a crocodile and Jens Voigt.
Actually, now I think about it I just switch to power balladz on the iPod.
There's a bloke in the local running club who lets out an ear-splitting primal scream when he wants to channel a bit more energy to his legs. Nearly wet myself with terror the first time he did it coming past me.
'come on arms, do your stuff'
Sy Stallone in... Over the Top ?
Just after the turns his cap around ??
Actually, now I think about it I just switch to power balladz on the iPod
Cycling is about getting outside and into the elements and you don’t need to be listening to Queen or Slayer in order to experience that. Immerse yourself in the rhythm and pain, not in whatever 80?s hair band you call “music”.
[url= http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/ ]try to stick to these at all times fellow cyclist[/url]
Immerse yourself in the rhythm and pain, not in whatever 80?s hair band you call “music”.
I really like this guy.
I really like this guy.
Down, boy.
Oh not on the carpet!
try to stick to these at all times fellow cyclist
i stole it from that website. rule #62
worship the merckx
If you can talk to yourself you're not really suffering.
"You're not seeing spots Jon, your vision isn't blurry, push harder."
I'm not talking out loud!
Thank you, trickydisco. Much as I'd gleaned from the various threads then.
I find the no fruit rule bizarre. Pretty much all fruits are low GI, cherries being one exception. They are also a useful source of vitamins and minerals, and satisfying to eat.
burning 2000 caloires worth of body fat a day (2kg per week) is possible with exercise in addition to the diet but any diet that leads to such rapid weight loss will soon put the body into famine mode. For many people with sedentary jobs it will mean getting over 60% of their energy from body fat assuming they burn 3000 calories a day and they get 1000 calories from their iDave intake. There's lots of evidence that such rapid weight loss and famine mode living results in rebound when the dieters crack (survival instinct). IMo it's better to adopt a diet you can happily live with for the rest of your life and aim for losing 100gm a week rather than 2kg simply by increasing exercise.
As previously stated, I put on a couple of kgs over winter as I find I get more colds and feel the cold more if I don't. Those kgs go with no effort when the Summer comes and the market is overflowing with tempting strawberries, raspberries apricots, nectarines, plums and salade ingredients.
I find the no fruit rule bizarre
because quite simply it contains fructose which can spike your insulin
"can" or does? I've checked the GI of fructose, it's 19. I'm not suggesting people have Frosties and milk for breakfast, but müesli with soya milk, natural yoghurt or simply hot water with lots of fruit chopped up in it is a nutritious start to the day that will provide energy for the whole morning. GI? - Around 40 average for the ingedients, where's the problem?
Having hunted for the ten minutes since my last post I can find no evidence that eating friut leads to an "insulin spike" that could adversly affect blood sugar levels. [url= http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/blog/?p=173 ]This is worth a read though[/url].
E, that article looks at blood sugar, not insulin.
In a normal person, blood sugar is not allowed to rise because it triggers an insulin response. The sugar in your blood has to go somewhere, you don't excrete it. Insulin facilitates the movement of glucose into cells, where it gets used, or....gets stored..... As fat.
Testing the blood sugar level of a non diabetic person is a waste of time; your body simply stores the sugars.
assuming they burn 3000 calories a day and they get 1000 calories from their iDave intake.
You know what they say about assumptions. I've seen the plan, you've seen the plan. Where does it mention calories?
Edukator, I actually believe you and Dave are not so far apart as you imagine.
Matt
You've just posted a summary of what I posted myself on the last thread, Crikey. And precisely, the body produces the insulin needed. By "spike", I assume tricky disco is saying the body overreacts and produces too much insulin, again there is little evidence for this. Sure, the insulin curve lags the sugar curve so it's best to avoid starting rigorous exercise in thehour after eating but I've never seen a graph with a "spike".
Remember Marco Pantani was caught in possession of insulin and they've been trying to develop an insulin test for a while. Maybe the athletes adopting bizarre diets are doing so because they are compatible with insulin doping.
"Maybe the athletes adopting bizarre diets"
Which athletes? Which bizarre diets?
Pretty much all fruits are low GI, cherries being one exception. They are also a useful source of vitamins and minerals
It's not that great for vitamins and minerals compared to vegetables. You're far better off eating a helping of green beans, broccoli or cauliflower than you are apples or oranges.
Here's an article about fructose http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080724064824.htm It doesn't say don't eat fruit, but it does explain a bit about fructose. There's loads more out there. Seems it's not about insulin and GI, rather about lipogenesis directly.
müesli with soya milk, natural yoghurt or simply hot water with lots of fruit chopped up in it is a nutritious start to the day that will provide energy for the whole morning. GI? - Around 40 average for the ingedients, where's the problem?
Well in addition to the fructose point above, many dairy products elicit the production of far more insulin than their GI would suggest. Yoghurt seems to be the worst, it's higher than white bread on the [url= http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm ]insulin index (clicky).[/url]
And precisely, the body produces the insulin needed
Not true.
Here's more for you: http://www.bodyactive-online.co.uk/nutrition/hormones/insulin/InsulinIndex/IIDifference.asp
Traditionally, nutritionists thought that the faster the carbs got into the blood, the bigger the insulin response. So in an attempt to manage insulin, they recommended always eating low-glycaemic foods. There was some rational thinking and logic behind this assumption - however these general guideline rules have actually since been proven far from the truth.What has been discovered by several studies since, have shown that some low glycaemic index foods have huge insulin responses! So the correlation between glycaemic index and insulin response breaks down with some foods. For example, milk products have a very low glycaemic index. But they promote insulin responses parallel to the highest glycaemic foods. So just as this food has a slow influx of glucose into the blood stream - the stimulatory response of insulin is high and rapid. So what's the deal? Well, it appears that there are several other factors that determine insulin release besides carb content and the rate of carb absorption.
And another thing to think about. Do you think calories out is only determined by the amount of exercise you do?
I've never seen a graph with a "spike".
[img] http://www.sitcom.co.uk/hi_de_hi/graphics/char_spike.jp g" target="_blank">_7.jpg/220px-Steffi_Graf_(Wimbledon_2009)_7.jpg[/img][img] <a class=)
http://www.sitcom.co.uk/hi_de_hi/graphics/char_spike.jp g"/> [/img]
Fill yer boots.
Oh btw - found this sentence:
Conversely, unprocessed fibrous grains and cereals as well as fruits and veggies are great on both scales
So, if I find myself in some random town with limited choice and no iDiet lunch options, a wholemeal sandwich with meat might be my best bet?
Apart from Marco Pantani I can't name an athlete, iDFave. As a follower of the doping saga though I've been following the "rumours" which are strong enough to provoke [url= http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2007/March/08030701.asp ]initiatives to fing a test.[/url]
Rock and roll dancing now, laters.
I think part of the IDave thing is to reduce the availability of blood glucose and therefore avoid the insulin response and therefore reduce the storage of 'excess' carbohydrates as fat.
I dunno. To be honest I find the idea of people who have a range/choice of foodstuffs greater than anyone else on the planet arguing about it to be somewhat distasteful...
talking about distasteful, i wish i had never eaten that steamed salmon i just had.
i can feel it doing terrible things to my insides.....think i might write my will tonight, just in case........... 😉
I like this bit:
Anybody who has trouble gaining muscle or losing fat can stop blaming their genetics or their poor metabolism if only they understood and made proper use of the insulin index and glycaemic index of food. Going stages further you can learn your individualised metabolic type and body type and really get to grips with the way that your body handles and processes foods.
It's what I've been trying to determine - my own personal responses to foods.
Mrs Grips seems to be struggling - she's stuck pretty well to the diet this week and lost no weight at all.
To be honest I find the idea of people who have a range/choice of foodstuffs greater than anyone else on the planet arguing about it to be somewhat distasteful..
It's precisely because our culture is awash with an orgy of indulgence that we need to make these choices.
Maybe the athletes adopting bizarre diets"Which athletes? Which bizarre diets?
Apart from Marco Pantani I can't name an athlete, iDFave
Oh. So what bizarre diet was Pantani on?
It's precisely because food is no longer an issue that we can agonize and debate it to the nth degree.
It's precisely because food is no longer an issue that we can agonize and debate it to the nth degree [b]to avoid poisoning ourselves with too much of it[/b].
Maybe the athletes adopting bizarre diets"Which athletes? Which bizarre diets?
Apart from Marco Pantani I can't name an athlete, iDFave
Oh. So what bizarre diet was Pantani on?
In his latter days most of his diet appeared to be cocaine!
Do give over with the poison bs molgrips. Chubby well fed western folks agonizing about diet is particularly unedifying, especially when they discover the latest miracle cure for their imagined ills.
Alright, that was a bit strong in this context, but many people are slowly killing themselves with over-eating of the wrong kinds of foods, so that's not so different to the accumulated effects of toxins is it?
Chubby well fed western folks agonizing about diet is particularly unedifying, especially when they discover the latest miracle cure for their imagined ills.
That's not what this is.
It's precisely because our culture is awash with an orgy of indulgence that we need to make these choices.
You can just choose to eat sensibly and in moderation. No fizzy pop, limited amounts of treats etc
Have you read 'Iron War' Molly? It's opening my eyes to the pursuit of suffering via exercise as a means of enjoyment. Makes me want to train some more.
TSY - try this from 27:00
http://www.bulletproofexec.com/3-hacking-fatigue-with-tim-noakes-plus-more-4-hour-body-fun/
I'm a tightwad, lend me Iron War when you're done with it TSY.
...oh and I know this is me being a arse, but I really hate the term 'hack/hacking' when used in terms of anything other than 'puters. It just seems unnecessary.
Nice one iDave, I'll give it a listen tomorrow.
I'll post it over when I'm done Jamie...
I'll post it over when I'm done Jamie...
You're a star. If you like, I will send you a 'surprise read'.
Pay it forward an' all that.
Post a picture of 300 you eejit.
...I must be slipping:
[img] 
[/img]
Post a picture of 300 you eejit.
iHack heads
oh and I know this is me being a arse, but I really hate the term 'hack/hacking' when used in terms of anything other than 'puters. It just seems unnecessary.
I imagine horse riders think the same about 'puters 🙂
I imagine horse riders think the same about 'puters
Somewhere on HorseyTrackWorld, someone is probably grumbling right about now.
Talking of over indulgence this is an interesting read:
I was bored, so I googled HorseyTrackWorld - no results.
Then I reverted to type and googled jodphur world. First hit was a swimming pool in India.
Got some other ideas though, so might be on google for a bit.
Any endurance athletes considering 4-3-3 should read [url= http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/Insulin.athlete.html ]this [/url]before. I suffered exactly the same running down of reserves and muscular fatigue when trying the paleo diet. Perhaps my error was not injecting insulin to build lean muscle mass and cram glycogen into my muscles.
Googling "insulin endurance athletes" and "insulin bodybuilding" produced enough material to convince me that any athlete that is prepared to dope can use insulin to achieve high muscle glycogen levels without a carb loading diet.
I also have some queries for the idieters:
I've not been doing too much of the serious exercise as of yet, mostly walking (quite a lot of walking actually, 50+ miles in the last week) and climbing (3 x 2.5-4 hour sessions last week) but what to eat when I get back on the road bike for 2-4 hours? Nothing too intense, average 15-17.5 mph over variable terrain (I.e some hills, def not flat).
And what about all day events like hillwalking/outside climbing?
And with all this walking what should I start running at? 3 miles? Haven't run for approx a year. Waiting to lose another half stone before starting.
What weight would a heavily built (big shoulders) 6 footer expect to level out at on the idiet? My lightest adult weight was 72 kg and that was with no real exercise, maybe a 4k run once or twice a week. And I was pretty skinny at that weight. Been down to 12.5 stone when I was racing mtb about 10-15 years ago.
Sorry to derail the thread with sensible queries though... 😳
The amateur, non-iDave answer and assuming you're making a reasonable effort rather than toddling along:
Two hours: a banana eaten in two halves at 1h and 1h 30, and water
Four hours: diluted grape juice, a banana and a cereal bar or two from Lidl eaten at half a bar/banana every half hour to 45 minutes from one hour on.
2-4 hours? Nothing too intense, average 15-17.5 mph over variable terrain (I.e some hills, def not flat).
*swoons
Edukator,
I know you don't answer questions but I'll give it another go.
Do you realise that the generally accepted paleo diet is not 4:3:3, if you are refering to Carb:Protein:Fat?
In which case, citing [b][u]your[/b][/u] experiences of one as a refutal of the other is meaningless, by all scientific logic.
Matt
Yes I do realise, I'm just giving my personal experience of a diet which by its nature reduced the proportion of carbs I was eating. I was trying what a doctor suggested. Like the mediterranean diet there is no one definitive plan so quoting proportions isn't helpful. I can say it was less carbs than usual for me with certainty, and I'm also sure that it was the reduction in carbs that hampered my recovery and led to fatigue; I felt better as soon as I put them back. I have retained some of the things the doctor suggezsted such as fruit juice rather than "energy drinks", and dried fruit and muesli bars rather than "energy bars" on the bike.
metalheart... I need some measurements to give you an accurate online guesstimate. What's your chest measurement?
I reckon 12.5st is a good aim though.
Edukator - do you fancy giving me a nutrition strategy for my ride with iDave?
Thanks,
I have never been in the same position, i.e. training/racing triathlon so I haven't really felt the need to experiment with various proportions of carbs etc. My diet is a half decent approximation of iDave, with the addition of some fruit (just cos I enjoy it). In terms of exercise, I have had good results with gels when I ran a marathon, starting from about an hour in.
My experience is that I do have very bad results from wheat and to a limited extent gluten. Many of the symptoms you have listed on the previous pages occur even with a relatively small amount of wheat (bloating, stomach cramps, diahroea, restrictions in airways etc.)
Matt
TSY - probably 42" (but usually need 44" for the shoulders...)
I'm expecting 99% accuracy now!
Its more where will the idiet run out at...
Hmmmm... I'm 5'10" with a similar upper body build and have got myself to 11st 5lb.
I reckon you can get to 12.5 on the iDiet with ease and 12.12 (give or take 0.02) with some extra effort.
How much do you weigh at the moment?
I suffered exactly the same running down of reserves and muscular fatigue when trying the paleo diet
I did at first, then I adapted it slightly with great results. I increased the carbs taken around exercise. However I was doing quite a lot then. Now I'm doing less general exercise and really only doing the shorter targeted training sessions, I'm relying on glycogen stores during (as discussed on the other thread) and only refuelling afterwards.
I think that if you eat loads of carbs your body can get very good at using them for exercise and not so good at using fat. However if you train without depending on the carbs your body can become better at burning fat.
and only refuelling afterwards.
Does that mean no more coke pre workout?
How's the swimming coming along? I'm giving in and getting lessons.
It does Yeti yes. I have learned 🙂
I haven't been swimming for two weeks or so. Not good enough but that's families for you 🙂
Awesome!! You see my mention of 'Iron War'... I reckon you might enjoy it, although it is light on science.