[Closed] Training and diet talk...

MDA.

Oh gosh - can of worms, but will try to be brief.

On testing - first was basic max HR test (by Rick Kiddle, a well known triathlete/coach many years ago) using a spin bike. Estimated max HR was a lot higher than standard formula. Initially used simple percentages but then switched to karvonen method ie, including resting HR and this works even better for me. Second method focused more on lactate thresholds and when my body was burning fat versus carb. I wanted help with ultra marathons and this seemed sensible - but interesting gave me an ultra pace much faster than simple HR. In practice, I found this too hard which was perhaps an indicator that fitness levels had slipped.

How do I use?

1. Training - most importantly on not overtraining. Then on ensuring that I run long runs SLOWLY and short runs FAST and avoid the common zone 3 training zone. I am sold on the idea that most people run their long runs too quickly and their short ones to slowly, so I use 70% and 85% levels as limits either way. John L Parker wrote a ridiculously simple book on this concept. Running below 70% seems far to easy to start with but v soon the fitness impact kicks in and you find yourself running much faster at lower HR (!!!). The downside is that you have to work much harder on the >85% shorter stuff. This gets tougher over time!!! I hardly ever train between 70% and 85% (unless I am being lazy on shorter stuff and cheat at 80%!!!)

2. Races - again I have found Parker's rules of thumb WORK FOR ME (but this may not be for everyone) ie I run 5k at between 85-95% of WHR (Karvonen), 10k 80-90%, Half mara 75%-85%, Mara 70-80% and ultras 65-75. Set my watch to beep at either end of ranges.

Again this is VERY PERSONAL but works for me. I have raced much better when using HR to pace myself especially over 10k and in triathlon (HIM bike legs in particular when its easy to get board and drift). The only time this didn't work was very first London mara when HR was high from the start and I had to run slower than planned. Pi$$ed me off, but found out three days later that I had a virus so HRM had saved me on the day as I was comfortable albeit 10m down on target time.

For Karvonen:

Take Max HR minus Resting HR (RHR), then do percentages, then add back RHR. For me this means 70% of max HR is actually 78% when calculated using Karvonen (if this makes sense)

[i]The Southern Yeti - Member
Solo - I wouldn't ask if I knew!

Posted 3 minutes ago # Report-PostJamie - Member
MDA.
[/i]

MDA is useful, if you can handle the style that blog is written in.

There appears to be a large and randomly spread selection of people who have decided to introduce a paleo-esque change in their diet and have achieved results they appear to be happy with.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Given your present rate of work, TSY.
I'd not say that a Paleo diet will offer you sufficient energy to exercise the three times a day, that you do.

For lesser types, mere mortals such as myself.
a Paleo themed perspective on my diet seems to be Ok.
But I remain loyal to the iDave diet principles also.

How did we get onto this again ?.
😐

TSY - you need to check whether your 201 was an actual reading or merely a blip. When my batteries tend to run down, I get more spurious readings especially at the start. But if you did hit 201 at a max, then forget formulae, this is your max!! Too many people get hung up on 220-age etc when these are guidelines AT BEST. My max is 18bpm higher than formula!

Dont forget, that it can be very easy to get obsessive about HR!!! I also hide mine for a few days every now and again and just run and ride for fun and for feel.

The other funny thing to try is cadence when running. I have long, lopey stride which is actually not very efficient. Obviously use cadence monitor on road bike but tried it with runs last year. First run took 12 minutes off 21/2 hour run merely by having shorter, faster cadence!!! Ridiculous!!

Of course, the simplest method for feel on long runs is the talk test - can you talk normally while running? If so, you are probably in Z2 and at good pace for long runs. I am surprised at how close this point is (at the upper end) to the precise level that a HRM would indicate at 70%. This suggest to me that RK did a good job at measuring my max HR

Thanks Teamhurtmore. I regularly hit 187-88 and therefore don't think it's a true max. The 201 was during a hard session, so I think it could be a max, maybe a beat or two higher?

My HRM was freaking out before I did a software update... 288bpm and rising!

Solo - I just want to read about it. There is no alterior motive, I don't wish to discredit it or talk it down, just want to see if there are bits of it I can adopt for myself.

288 would be worrying TSY!!!

Sounds like yours is >200 then.

FWIW - I will feel shot (hopefully) at the end of a 10k XC run race. Average HR will be somewhere around 172 and my race zones 165-179. These compare with my max of 193. So your comments on regularly hitting 188 with max of 200 do not seem unusual to me.

THM - I wasn't even exercising and it said 230+ 😆

Just created a quick Karvonen spreadsheet and I reckon it works pretty well against my sense of 'feel' as at 70% I'm at roughly the avg rate that I rode at for 5 hours yesterday.

Good idea to keep an eye on your RHR - especially signs of over-trainging/illness etc. Very easy to make adjustments via spreadsheet.

Just created a quick Karvonen spreadsheet and I reckon it works pretty well against my sense of 'feel' as at 70% I'm at roughly the avg rate that I rode at for 5 hours yesterday.

I was tired, no doubt about it, but I reckon that it's more to do with fuelling than how hard my heart was working.

I almost did mow the lawn last night when I got in, but I almost mow it every night and then think... balls to it.

That was a great post on the the last page teamhurtmore, just stuck my avg HR for last weekend's 10K worked out pretty much bang on 90%.
I suspect though on gentle runs I'm still higher than the 70% figure. If I remember I'll stick a HR on this evening and check.

but I reckon that it's more to do with fuelling than how hard my heart was working.

I think I should've had another bar on the way round and then eaten more, more quickly post ride.

Only had a banana and a peanut butter sandwich, then drove the 2 hours home. Emergency chocolate & coffee break at a garage as I was falling asleep.

You live and you learn though... getting up at 5:15 this morning for a swim wasn't much fun!

[i]You live and you learn though... getting up at 5:15 this morning for a swim wasn't much fun! [/i]

Indeed, indeed.

So, that was lunch in a particularly nice pub, which is pretending to be a restaurant.
And a good job they do of it too.

TSY.
Just what does a week in exercise addiction look like ?.

Would you mind outlining here what a typical week is ?.

I think I'm going to become more active and I'd like an idea of just how far off mental I am / could be.
😉

How active are you planning on being? I'll let you know the diagnosis...

[i]How active are you planning on being?[/i]

Not sure I can say without a scale to measure against.
Hence.. Who better than to set the standard.
Just list Monday to Friday if you wish.

[i]There is nothing mental with filling your free time with things that you enjoy and that are good for you! [/i]

You just carry on as you are.
The day you stop posting is when I'll start to really worry about you.

Ooh! It's National Bread Week.

[img] [/img]

On the subject of HR training best thing ive ever done was a V02 max test: did one for the bike and one for running, the running max was higher than the bike.
The most interesting thing; having always done my own type of training for 30 years my calculated training zones were not much different to my own type of training.
Most noticeably from the vo2max I have found that my turbo training sessions are now much more focused (and painfull) and i plan more recovery sessions in after a hard ride/run.
The outcome of going more scientific; i think i am training less (i have a young family) but still getting excellent results and enjoying the training.

Solo - there really is no typical week but on average I reckon...

4-5 hrs in the pool.
2-5 hrs on the bike
1 hrs dedicated running (normally I do a run after bike or with weights)
1.5-3 hrs of yoga
2+ hrs of weights
spin class
Tabata session on the rower.
30 mins of rolling about on the foam roller every night.

Then more at the weekend.

So....for a HRM newbie. I want to be able to sustain a healthy pace for 5-7hrs over hilly terrain on sportives, mtb events. Did HONC yesterday and red-lined early on, really felt it later. As a very broad guide what % of Max HR would you guys look to stay at when you are

- spinning along on the flat
- climbing (long climbs)

[i]Solo - there really is no typical week but on average I reckon...

4-5 hrs in the pool.
2-5 hrs on the bike
1 hrs dedicated running (normally I do a run after bike or with weights)
1.5-3 hrs of yoga
2+ hrs of weights
spin class
Tabata session on the rower.
30 mins of rolling about on the foam roller every night
[/i]

Oh dear.
Just as I expected.
Thats one heck of a mountain to climb.
For me to get even close.
🙁

Sunday - ( yesterday ) 3.5 hrs road bike - knackered.
Monday - ( Today )... Err, nothing planned. 😳
Tuesday - Gym, 30 - 60 mins bike followed by weights, 3 sets for, two muscle groups plus maybe some dead lifts.
Wednesday - Nothing planned ( even more panic and guilt )
Thursday - gym again, same as Tuesday, but weights for differing muscle groups, plus maybe some dead lifts.
Friday - might be gym again.
Saturday - nothing planned.

Go for a little run tonight then Solo. Just a 5k?

I'm looking forward to lighter nights and the fact that my mrs has started a shift pattern at work that should allow me a bit more training time and a structured fortnightly cycle to it.

Rest is under-rated imo 😀

mcboo - I guess you can have two strategies - different HR's for the flat and the hills or keep the same throughout but vary the intensity. For 5-7 hours on the bike I would probably go for marathon ranges which for me is 70-80% of WHR (Karvonen) as a RoThumb.

I am v new to mtb endurance races and events so still trying to devise correct strategy. But for ultra running events eg Lakeland 100, I try to keep as constant as possible and accept that this means walking up the steep stuff. On a recent mtb event (much shorter only 2 and a bit hours) I did decide to fast walk one hill carrying my bike merely to reduce the HR and rest my legs. Seemed to work as I doubt i would have ridden any faster but would have been more knackered in the saddle.

I like you Ian.
You can rest different body parts whilst exercising the others... as long as your sensible.

Every so often my heart and lungs tell me to have a day off, so I do.

[i]Go for a little run tonight then Solo. Just a 5k?[/i]

Sorry TSY. I know / think you mean well.
But I do not run, not now, not ever.
I'll see if I can plot a new route into the garmin and get a ride in tonight.
But its tough going when I won't even get home until 7-8pm and need to be a bed by 10pm for my 5am rise.
Theres just not enough time.
🙁

[i]I'm looking forward to lighter nights[/i]
This is what has got me thinking.
But reality is, I'd have to choose between eating and moving.
Don't have time for both after work.
As you can imagine.
Dinner normally wins.

Solo - can you take your bike to work and go for a spin at lunch?

Running is so simple, it's horrid but there's so little faff.

Oh and loved this from Jamie's flyer -

Did You know that a medium slice of bread contains just 94 calories

[b]Just!?![/b]
That's half a pint of beer!
Or 10 pints of bitter per a loaf.
Beer or Bread, Bread? Beer? Hmm. this is getting complicated.

Interesting, my comments on training when on the paleo diet seem to have been taken on board.

Having raced triathlon for twenty years there are some things in your training programme and experiences I could make constructive comment on, Yeti. However, that would no doubt lead to disagreement and me being called "spiteful" by iDave and a "tit", "pillock" and "prick" by Molgrips. If ever we meet in real life I look forward to discussing such things.

#logs out#

Got to laugh at these 'obsessives'. 😆

Having once been an 'obsessive', ie running 6 days a week with the odd twice in a day, I'm glad I saw the light.

Along came a bike ... 🙄

THM thanks, will look at Karvonen

Interesting, my comments on training when on the paleo diet seem to have been taken on board.

In what way? Missed that bit (seriously)

Mcboo - its very simple, I explained it on previous page.

Instead of simple % age of max HR

Take Max HR minus resting HR
Then take % ages
Then add back the resting HR

Really simple. You can put on a spreadsheet to adjust for changes (lowering 😉 ) of RHR

[i]Running is so simple, it's horrid but there's so little faff.[/i]

My OS will not permit [i]running[/i]

However, I do have....

[img] [/img]

😀

C'mon Edukator - show them all that you're a good guy.

My guess is that you'll say...

Cut back on swimming as I can't make up that much time there... however I'm rubbish at it so I'm desperately trying to sort out technique.

Increase the running - this is now my top priority.

Rest some more.
Please 🙂

Solo - what is OS?

We're not obsessive C-G.

[i]Interesting, my comments on training when on the paleo diet seem to have been taken on board.

In what way? Missed that bit (seriously)
[/i]

iDave.
I'm just trying to ignore him.
Like I couldn't have come to my conclusion before [i]he[/i] turned up.

I replied to your e-mail.
Did you get it or are you still having e-problems ?.

CG.
You mention the bike.
Have you managed to try the road bike ?.
Lovely weather lately for a gentle spin.
😉

Interesting, my comments on training when on the paleo diet seem to have been taken on board.

I think Edukator has called win on this. Everyone else should record it as a 'loss' and report back here next week for re-training.

Matt

[i]Solo - what is OS?[/i]

[b]O[/b]perating [b]S[/b]ystem.
I used a computer based, Jamie style, analogy for my objection to running.
Oh, but, Jamie is the running man.
Oh, my bads.

Thanks for trying, but running is probably out, except when I run about with nephew once in a while, kicking a ball about on the park.
I can still out sprint him, but I'll not have the upper hand for too much longer.
In a year or two he'll speed up.
But I'll still be giving 100 percent.
😉

There were plenty of triathletes on TriTalk who followed the Paleo Diet (including IMers). There is a whole thread on it if my memory serves me correctly.

I think you'll find you're wrong there THM, edukator knows these things. You can't live let alone compete without generous amounts of bread pasta and potatoes.

Can we talk about tri-training instead of diet, for a few posts at least? C'mon Edukator, learn me up good.

Operating System.
I used a computer based, Jamie style, analogy for my objection to running.
Oh, but, Jamie is the running man.
Oh, my bads.

[img] [/img]

I cant tell whether that is serious iDave or a joke, but I know that you and Edukator don't see eye-to-eye judging from the other thread!!

But if anyone is interested this was one of them:

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=81488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

TSY - you must be the first triathlete that doesn't stress time in the bike as top priority!! You cant win a tri in the swim but you can certainly lose one!!

[damn, I am trying to wean myself off triathlons and TriTalk!!]

THM - it's by far my strongest discipline currently. Plus, I'm not going to win... so therefore, can't really lose. Just want to do my best!