[Closed] Train fare dodgers

Not read all of these posts but am I right in thinking that the op has the hump because someone got on the train without a ticket and then coughed up for one when the inspector came around?? This is common practice on my regular line (Milton Keynes to Northampton) in fact Ive turned up at the station with minutes to spare but found a dirty great cue at the "card only" machine with several people using this for the first time and making a right hash of it, then the next few booking some round the uk multi stop epic and my train is now pulling in..... So I just get on the bloody thing and pay at the other end. It's no biggy!! Never had the third degree at the other end just tell them sorry and hand my money over.
Perhaps this is an issue in more heavily used areas like London but otherwise it gives the bored London midland blokes something to do at the other end. It's not like I'm jumping the barriers and tearing off out of the station.

Hora junior's getting an early educantion on fair dodgers. Almost every evening we'll sit on the Tram station platform waiting for mrshora and watch dodging/ensuing conversations in action. Almost all the <30yr olds 'dont have any I.D' and the suit/working ladies that should know better can be abit rude.

Strangely there doesn't seem to be any working age/working males who forget tickets.

Not read all of these posts but am I right in thinking that the op has the hump because someone got on the train without a ticket and then coughed up for one when the inspector came around??

You've not read the OP either by the looks of it.

OP was sat opposite a very well off person who very begrudgingly bought a ticket when the guard came around, ie she was actively trying to avoid paying.

The technology for this already exists...

I realise that. You appear to have missed my point.

OP was sat opposite a very well off person who refused to pay the ticket when the guard came around, and only relented after some persuasion.

Not quite refused, but was all for cock n bull stories as she quite clearly knew she had dodged the fare wherever it was she boarded. Every station has barriers, so the only way you are getting on without a ticket is if you purposly make a positive action to avoid doing so.

The ToC is quite clear on this - you need a ticket before boarding, otherwise there is a penalty fare. The number of people caught everyday is really quite astonishing.

One of the best moments I saw was an indignant lady at Liverpool Street. Seemingly middle aged and middle class. Definately fare dodging as barged past one of the guys manning the gate to let luggage, bikes, etc. through. Wouldn't stop when challenged. Guy on the barrier idicated to a random bloke with a rucksack. It was an undercover BTP guy. Firm grasp of indignant lady's wrist. "Police, come with me madam". Excellent!!!

Some it's before 0930, others include 1630-1830

The real pisser is when you get to the station just after off peak time has started buy a ticket wander down to the platform get on the first train that comes (it's off peak now right?) and then get accused of fare dodging because
"this is the 9:25 train"
"well you didn't get here 'til 9:45 so you're off peak"
"no we're not. pay up!"

Pretty galling that they can do that when all the trains I am allowed to catch are stuck behind a load of ones I'm not allowed on - if your entire journey on the train is during off peak hours then WhyTF should the timetable and their sloppy punctuality affect me? That's [b]their[/b] problem.

not quite refused, but was all for cock n bull stories as she quite clearly knew she had dodged the fare wherever it was she boarded. Every station has barriers, so the only way you are getting on without a ticket is if you purposly make a positive action to avoid doing so.

Yes, sorry, got in the sneaky edit while you were posting!

Dunno if this varies across the country tho.

Yep, and it's not as easy as it being the time the train arrives either always. For some it's the time it arrives at its destination. So it's trains getting to London before 10 (say, I've not got the specifics), but that can mean an 0845 train far enough down the line can be off peak.

And on FGW the peak thing only applies if you get off at Reading or London. Take the same train Carmarthen to Bridgend it's not peak even if you sit next to someone going to Reading for whom it is peak 🙂

and then they wonder why nobody* catches the train 🙄
public travel should be quick, simple and cheaper** than car travel otherwise car use will never substantially decrease. So far we have none of those 3.

*comparatively <10% modal share iirc
**per journey, almost no one ever factors TCO for cars when deciding whether to drive or take the train/bus somewhere.

Except rail use is increasing hugely, and has been for 20 years or so.

Our rail network is the envy of many countries. It [i]is[/i] quick, and there's a lot of trains. It isn't cheap if you want to turn up and go, but it's not that bad if you plan journeys ahead of time and have some flexibility. It'll never rival car travel for convenience, so 'simplicity' is a difficult one. You could simplify ticket prices - make everything the peak time fare. I suspect folk would moan though.

Trains only really work if at least one end of your journey is right in a city centre (esp london where public transport (tube) links are good and very flexible). That makes the overall trip quick & easy. Costwise, it only really benefits mid-long term predictable travellers - commuters, mostly.

If you're willing to bugger about either with taking a folding bike or taxi/bus options then it's an option in other circumstances too, but it's not really "convenient". Add in the high cost and driving wins in a lot of people's eyes

Threads this full of middle-class indignation make me want to go jump a train

In Japan, there is a queue position marked on the platform floor. It positions you just to the side of the doors so that people can get off easily. Works really well and is cheap.

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obelix - Member
Threads this full of middle-class indignation make me want to go jump a train

We can't all afford First Class like you upper crusters you know.

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What countries envy our train systems ? Ones without train systems ?

Ive used train services extensively on mainland europe , australia an new zealand and caught a few in former soviet states

Ive yet to come across such self important assholes as the conductors on virgin and east coast main line trains.

First scotrail on the other hand - top folks

When did 1st class become so stingy?

1st class on the east coast main line from London a couple of months ago, nothing stingy about it. Tea and coffee as well as beer wine and spirits as well as hot food, sandwiches and cake. Wine was jolly decent and flowed freely all the way home. All for about £20 over the cattle class price.
No problems with the staff either, friendly and helpful

What countries envy our train systems ? Ones without train systems ?

I have commuted for 30 years, 20+yrs in the UK plus 3yrs in the US and 2yrs in Singapore plus used the railways throughout Europe quite a lot (France, Germany, Holland, Switzerland). Without doubt the UK system is the worst. Even in the US the trains where slow but always ran on time including with 2-3 feet of snow on the ground. Car park was free with train season ticket, UK it's £9.00 a day and pricing lies outside the regulatory formula.

Electronic ticket pricing, Oyster etc, has been a licence to print money for the train companies, £100's millions of penalty fares for forgetting to touch in / out which are not possible if you are carrying a paper ticket which you show if/when asked. Plus the excellent scam of charging you £5 for the card which is an interest free loan and many cards are lost / bought by tourists who never reclaim their money, over the 100,000's if not millions of cards that a very large sum of money / source of profit

Andy_B - Member
In Japan, there is a queue position marked on the platform floor. It positions you just to the side of the doors so that people can get off easily. Works really well and is cheap.

And they never change the fares (or very rarely). In the 11 years I went to Japan regularly, my 'normal' route never changed the fares. 150yen to the office or 540yen for a 1hr journey into central Tokyo.

Except rail use is increasing hugely, and has been for 20 years or so.

Train is an option for commuters (if you like the sardine effect) and long term planners, bloody rubbish for other stuff. No it will never be as convenient as cars so work on making it cheaper, speedy and simple. Except it's all privatised so they concentrate on the easy targets - day to day cramming as many commuters into as little rolling stock as possible, trying to entice those long term planners with some decent deals and stinging those who have no other option. (I [i]hate[/i] driving in traffic, much prefer the train but the way things are it's still a close run thing between taking the car or train on my rest* days)

*and as major local engineering works are about to kick in and **** everything up even further for the duration I'm either going to have to forgo rest days or drive in.

So you want it made better but without any disruption from work needed to make it better?

ChubbyBlokeInLycra - Member

1st class on the east coast main line from London a couple of months ago, nothing stingy about it. Tea and coffee as well as beer wine and spirits as well as hot food, sandwiches and cake. Wine was jolly decent and flowed freely all the way home. All for about £20 over the cattle class price.
No problems with the staff either, friendly and helpful

Don't worry, it's been reprivatised so soon will be back to normal.

On my line into Waterloo they've extended the platforms to get an extra two carriages on, the commuter lines do seem to be at capacity. Same with the tube, more should cycle!

So you want it made better but without any disruption from work needed to make it better?

East Coast booze only weekdays not weekends. That's dull.

Even in the US the trains where slow but always ran on time including with 2-3 feet of snow on the ground.

The North East Corridor is pretty good, but the distance trains are a joke. The infrastructure is largely owned by the freight operators, so passenger services are just pushed down the priority list. They're regularly 12+ hours late. They're infrequent too, daily at best, for many major cities. To say their system is better than ours is just utterly daft.

In France TGVs are good, but regional services aren't as good. Switzerland is pretty spot on. Italy isn't great. Spain neither.

almost no one ever factors TCO for cars when deciding whether to drive or take the train/bus somewhere.

That's because it isn't simply purchase cost divided by number of miles. There are other factors that make you buy a car, and then each morning the decision to get in your car instead of take the train costs much less. More complex than some of the anti car lot make out.

I'm pro public transport but making poor arguments helps no-one 🙂

Just out of interest, I've done a search on thetrainline.com for a midweek journey in May for 2 adults from Chelmsford to Manchester Piccadilly*, arriving in Manchester for around 9:30, departing the same day after 7pm

The best price it came back on a simple search was £421 😯

Of course we could go first class and remove restrictions on times and it would be a mere £1,044 😯 😯

Not exactly an enticing offer to dissuade us from driving there!!!

*MrsFeet has had one of her entries to the 'Little Painting Challenge' selected to go into the exhibition 😀

Italy isn't great.

Of course we could go first class and remove restrictions on times and it would be a mere £1,044

Not exactly an enticing offer to dissuade us from driving there!!!

Piedi has hit the nail on the head as to the problem with the railways. The pricing structure is intentional so as to dissuade people from using trains. You could fly from Stansted to Manchester for far less, in fact Network Rail staff do this because trains are too expensive.

The last government's attitude to this was to simply continue to ladle duties onto road/air travel to make rail travel artificially competitive. None of the main parties know what to do, Labour and the Tories come out in hives whenever anyone mentions "Nationalisation", the Liberals and the Greens have touted very modest fare cuts (1% and 10% respectively).

The rail network is over-complex and has suffered from under-investment for decades, until the last decade or so. Governments refuse to listen and see rail travellers as a soft-target. They also want to see rail travellers pay inflated fares to help fund the infrastructure for HS2, which will ferry a handful of plutocrats around, but is likely to be too expensive for the likes of the rest of us.

What's needed is legislation to cut fares, strangle the multitude of layers of private bureaucracy and to ensure that more railway track is laid to ease the burden on the existing network. I'd go further and suggest that anyone involved in rail privatisation during the 1990s is publically shot, but I'd settle for seeing them surrender their generous pension allowances and barred from employment.

CBA to refute every single example - everyone will have an anecdote about a country with their experience. Italy is like France, the connection between the major centres of population is good, but beyond that it's a bit lacking. A very quick Google suggested roughly [s]40m[/s] (edit, sorry that's HSR only) passenger journeys per annum versus our 1.2bn, from a similar national population.

PdF - that's the trouble, however, look at it differently. You can go up the night before for £88 each, first class, or £44 each standard. Have a bit of food. The Novotel is good value and close to the station. Coming back is £44 each. Get a "Two Together" railcard, they're £30 a year, you'll save more than that on this trip alone.

It's not necessarily cheaper than driving, but it can be significantly more relaxing!

The pricing structure is intentional so as to dissuade people from using trains

Don't be daft! How busy do you reckon a London - Manchester train will be that arrives into Manchester at 09.00...? I'll give you a clue, it's not dead! You can't even fly from Gatwick or London City to Manchester anymore, too few passengers. It's annoying, as I used to do it, and you can't really do a day trip from us by train.

Hmmm, HS2

A colossal amount of money that will really benefit who exactly? Would it even 'make back' the money?

njee20

That was with a discount (Annual 'Gold Card' here, AKA a bog standard 12 month season ticket).

Yes, could go the night before, pay for a hotel, food, etc. but that's all extra expense. Driving there in my own will still be cheaper, and not really take very much longer. We'd also be guaranteed a seat! To make rail travel attractive and get people out of their cars, then it has to be realistically priced. Sadly the pricing model in this country is utterly broken. There's too many separate Train Operating companies running trains they lease from other companies on Track owned by Network rail. There's just too many people extracting too much money from the railways, end of.

The WCML is virtually full. You've got to do something. HS2 unlocks vast amounts of capacity. Hard to define the benefit in pound amounts though.

I agree the pricing structure is daft though!

Interesting read here, guess costs are probably up again though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24159571

The pricing structure is intentional so as to dissuade people from using trains

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05sz83j/nick-and-margaret-the-trouble-with-our-trains ]Here:[/url]

From 15:20 onwards, a Virgin rail manager admits that pricing is used as an incentive not to travel at peak times and to book in advance - months in advance.

Then there's this, in the Standard "The Lib Dems also raised concerns that the changes could add to increase train overcrowding, with commuters no longer incentivised to wait until 9.30am"

How do you think that people are incentivised? Hint: not with free croissants and coffee.

To make rail travel attractive and get people out of their cars, then it has to be realistically priced

It is at certain times. The problem with rail is that most people want to travel at the same time. This is clearly not possible so they up the prices, but the trains are still full so they keep upping them. The money subsidises the off peak trains to encourage people to travel off peak, or to tempt off peak travelers from their cars. They don't want to tempt peak travellers from their cars because they can't carry them.

Can't really blame them for that policy. They can't put more trains on because there's no room. Hence HS rail.

Basically the problem here is that you're expecting rail to take the place of cars, in a country that we've built exclusively for car, and judging it by that standard. It's not that rail is doing a good or bad job, it's that it's not the right tool for the job you're asking of it.

That doesn't mean give up on rail though, it means let's put some of the effort we put into building a nation of motorists into other ideas. But that's hard.

Well the car does have at least one fundamental advantage though...

I've started work in a new office in London Bridge £58.00PW to get from Hampton Court to Bank and it's a godawful journey, the train's OK and pretty reliable but the Waterloo and City line is designed to eat people's souls. Door to door it's just over an hour. So I binned that pretty sharpish and ride instead, just over an hour door to door, arrive feeling happy and lively, 15 minutes in the work shower and I'm all set. Best of all I get a new bike on CTW that costs me around 1 weeks train fare per month. I appreciate that not everyone can ride or has showers and flextime but compared to the licensed robbery of the rail companies I'll take the bike anyday.

Bike is absolutely the best way in London if you are able bodied, amazed it took you this long 🙂

No showers before!

Was she fit?

If so, pay the fine, say how you doin' and give her a bloody good...

And another one before breakfast.

Don't make judgements either.

molgrips - Member

Well the car does have at least one fundamental advantage though...

Yep- that we've built an astonishing amount of infrastructure to make them viable

And why did we build that infrastructure?

Because cars (and horses before that) take you exactly where you want to go, rather than to a central location.

You may be anti car but you have to admit it is rather useful, which is why cars are so popular. It's not a subversive conspiracy. This usefulness is what leads to over-use of course and subsequent under investment in alternatives which would be better, and hence we are where we are. But there is more to driving than commuting.