[Closed] Toyota in epic media FAIL this morning

Are Toyota paying for advertising on every forum? Or jut ones where the posters are taking an inordinate amount of interest in things that don't really effect them?

You know what the meerkat would say...

I whole heartedly disagree. It's not in any way necessary driving normally about in a modern car, and I invite you to prove that it is.

I never said it was necessary. I said it promotes smoother driving/shifting and weight shifts etc, which is what it is used for in the racing context. Whether that's needed or not is a different argument.

Yeah, in cars without synchromesh. Which haven't been made for decades.

What's your point? There are still people who drive like that, people who are happy with that technique and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

And I didn't brand anyone a knob, I just said that it's a technique that's not needed on normal roads (EVER) so removing it in favour of another fail-safe is a good idea.

It's what you were implying and someone else later picked up on though, no-one said it was needed. There's no need to ADD IN an extra failsafe that doesnt exist on many cars if you DONT remove the original failsafe (the ignition key).

This would have saved their lives, no? So it's a bad thing why? I kind of agree about the ignition switch too - buttons are a pointless gimmick. But giving more ways to control an out of control car is a good thing - a panicked driver might only have time to think of one.

Possibly, yes, but there's no need for it if you hadn't removed the key in the first place, and that would allow people to continue to drive with whichever technique they like AND remain safe with a full-power-cut option.

thanks, I was wondering why anyone would want throttle & brake pressed at once...

I can list a few reasons, but read up on the technique to get the majority of them.

"The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off.

Knottie, it still cuts throttle even when I have my foot ON the throttle and press the brake at the same time - left foot braking. None of us on here are daft enough not to realise that in order to right-foot brake you have to lift your foot off the accelerator! "

the word usually !! It differs on different makes so it may well on your car.

Whether that's needed or not is a different argument.

That's the argument we are having.. or at least I am 🙂

There are still people who drive like that, people who are happy with that technique and there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

There is if you are missing the opportunity to add a safety feature to support it, when it's not needed.

Possibly, yes, but there's no need for it if you hadn't removed the key in the first place,

There is - two failsafes are better than one. In fact, the brake failsafe is the better option, since most people's first automatic instinct is to hit the brakes when they are going to fast. If this was guaranteed to slow the car then all further problems are solved. No knocking into neutral, or reaching for the key needed at all. Plus automatically throttling back a) preserves the inlet manifold pressure for the brake servo and b) allows the power steering/abs/esp etc to continue working, whereas killing the engine would do neither of these things.

It's the best failsafe, no arguments. You just like left foot braking, fine, you can have a switch to disable that option. But for 90% of us non-racer numpties out here, the more safety options the better, and we don't care about left foot braking.

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation (like I did last week when I drove into the back of a Landy 110 🙁 )

where do you need brake+go pedal together

Off the top of my head, on the approach to a sharp corner/junction, with a close-following car behind you, downhill, particularly in a rear-wheel drive car. Or, just for the hell of it, if you enjoy driving. Oh yes.

I used to heel-and-toe in my old Porsche all the time. Don't see how it's an issue in a Toyota though; the pedal layout in my wife's Rav-4 doesn't seem set up for it at all. You don't buy a Toyota if you enjoy driving, do you?

Heel-and-toe isn't the same as double-declutch.

What are we arguing about again?

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

Don't understand the question. What counts as 'danger'? Another vehicle approaching a junction with your road in the distance, or a football suddenly landing in front of you?

Also, some people are better at 'seeing' than others (or better at processing what they've seen, anyway), so I'm not sure your survey will yield any useful answers.

There is if you are missing the opportunity to add a safety feature to support it, when it's not needed.

We could make all sorts of extra failsafe items, we don't need to. There's no need for more than one failsafe, one that everyone knows.

There is - two failsafes are better than one. In fact, the brake failsafe is the better option, since most people's first automatic instinct is to hit the brakes when they are going to fast.

But it's not needed....

No knocking into neutral, or reaching for the key needed at all. Plus automatically throttling back a) preserves the inlet manifold pressure for the brake servo and b) allows the power steering/abs/esp etc to continue working, whereas killing the engine would do neither of these things.

There's no need to knock it into neutral when you key-off, just keep your foot on the brake and turn the key. Throttle stays shut, manifold vac maintained, engine still turning and adding engine braking to the effect while maintaining steering and braking servos.

It's the best failsafe, no arguments.

There is an argument, I've given you one.

You just like left foot braking, fine, you can have a switch to disable that option. But for 90% of us non-racer numpties out here, the more safety options the better, and we don't care about left foot braking.

Are you accusing me of being a "racer numpty"!? 😆 What's the point in having a whole heap of cars that react differently and have different failsafes, just include a key and you have your failsafe. The same failsafe that has been entirely successful throughout the history of motoring. It's the only failsafe you need and leaves the rest of the car control to whoever is driving in whatever manner they choose.

Out of interest, how do most people here react to seeing a danger ahead? Immediately brake or immediately back off the accelerator?

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation (like I did last week when I drove into the back of a Landy 110 )

I back off and assess the situation, unless there's an immediate impact likely, then I hit the brake while choosing one of the escape routes I've identified. But a stuck throttle is neither of those and my first instinct would not be to hit the brake, it would be to try to release the throttle unless I was about to hit something, then obviously brake comes first, then ignition key, though I may be unusual.

I think part of the problem is people are crap at reacting to danger in cars, while you may say its peoples first reaction to hit the brake, I can reel off at least 3 people I know who have just closed their eyes in accidents, including one who crashed, then drove through a wall because they kept their foot on the gas. I'm not sure it IS everyones first instinct.

on the approach to a sharp corner/junction, with a close-following car behind you

So heel toe [b]is[/b] just for glenH's example, shaving the aforementioned 0.5 second off journey time and mcrae-esque driving then?

Now I'd love to get on a track and have a go at left foot brake, arse/elbow pedal, double dutch etc driving, sounds a right laugh. Not on public roads tho

Now I'd love to get on a track and have a go at left foot brake, arse/elbow pedal, double dutch etc driving, sounds a right laugh. Not on public roads tho

Its not really a laugh, I'm not sure how bored you are, but it's another technique of getting smoother cornering (even at lower speeds), prepping for corners properly, maintaining brake coverage while accelerating etc - I don't have to lift, move, press to brake, it's right there under my foot all the time. I know for a fact that it's saved at least one kids life as I'd never have stopped if I'd been ordinarily resting on the throttle when he ran out from being stooped behind some bins, the time taken to shift my foot would have seen him buried in my window.
Not everyoen wants to, fair enough, it's not necessary. I like to. I've no need to have a failsafe that spoils that if I just have a key thanks.

Don't understand the question. What counts as 'danger'? Another vehicle approaching a junction with your road in the distance, or a football suddenly landing in front of you?

I kind of covered that in the second paragraph...

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation

Donk, no, you've missed the point.

Heel-and-toeing allows you to brake-steer-drive more smoothly, thus reducing the risk of the tailgater in your example impacting you from the rear.

As you say, speeding up isn't the best way to deal with a vehicle driving too close. Roadcraft recommends you slow down, in fact, allowing the following driver more time to react. As I think you were saying.

(You're not braking and accelerating at the same time, it's to do with matching engine revs to speed, which is why it's smoother. When you get it right. If you get it wrong, you just look and sound stupid.)

I used to have to brake with my toe and keep the engine going with my heel (left foot on the clutch) on my Fiat 127 at junctions if the engine was cold so it didn't cut out (choke didn't alway keep sufficient revs going).

I kind of covered that in the second paragraph...

No you didn't. You just said you drove into the back of a Landy.

I think part of the problem is people are crap at reacting to danger in cars

That is very significant.

People feel very safe driving along in modern cars and relatively few have experienced loss of traction/blow-out/sliding on a poor surface....until an emergency situation when they don't know how to handle it.

Your typical enthusiastic mountain biker knows about maximising traction and controlling/riding-out a slide without panicking -often through having a few offs at relatively low speed off-road, which has to be an advantage.

Fail to read the road on a motorbike or just slam on the brakes in a corner and you'll be off too.

Most car drivers have no idea at all.

Most people have no idea at all.

If visiting this forum for ~10 years (!?) has taught me anything at all, I think that's it.

how about if it were possible to only have the brake pedal override the engine if the accel pedal is pressed down a long way (ie so far the brakes would otherwise not be able to stop the car) this would allow you to still left foot brake and have the engine still respond to your right foot whilst feathering the brakes with your left.
When left foot braking your use the brake pedal and accel pedal totally differently to how you use these controls when you having a fit trying to stop the car when the accel pedal gets stuck / held down.
Both pedals have electrical sensors so its not too hard to have software make the decision is this left foot braking (ie ok) or is this a panic brake event (simples)..

Good point nwilko. Plenty of cars have 'emergency brake assist' these days anyway, where they keep the brakes on max (until you release it completely) if they detect a panic brake event.

Ok just read a bit about heel toe, matching engine speed, how does that differ from
brake
clutch in
release brake
apply accelerator to match revs to speed/gear
let clutch out
?

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating. If that is the case I refer you once again to the aforementioned 0.5 second. (yes CK said he always has a foot on the brake pedal but what % of people can drive like that properly? I'd guess less than 10% and I'm firmly in the inept 90% which would benefit from accelerator cut off - with an override switch if you must)

Both pedals have electrical sensors so its not too hard to have software make the decision is this left foot braking (ie ok) or is this a panic brake event (simples)..

Or just use the a key, one less thing to get software issues and rely on (relatively) sensitive sensors.

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating. If that is the case I refer you once again to the aforementioned 0.5 second.

Heel/toe I can brake continuously, allowing me continuous safety from covering the brake, while downshifting smoothly, bringing engine braking into the picture and never having moved from the brake pedal. It's nothing to do with how fast you go round the corner in 99% of the time, I do it ALL the time, not just when I'm in a hurry. As said above though, it's not needed, no-one claimed it was NEEDED. The point is that the brake-accel failsafe isnt needed if you keep a key, meaning peolpe can drive as they like and always have done without having to alter because oen person thinks heel-toe isnt necessary and can be abolished. The extra failsafe adds no extra safety. Everyone knows where the key is, turn it, engine is killed, brakingand steering maintained, everyones a winner.

It's only when you remove the key from the mix, a laziness/gadget feature, that you CREATE a problem that needs to be fixed with another safety feature that isnt suited to everyone. Dont introduce a danger and yuo dont need to add more safety.

heel-and-toe

what [b]is[/b] this please ?

Stupid driving aside, I do know that Toyota goes so completely bonkers overboard with its little yellow warning stickers and warning buzzers and don't-do-this and can't-do-that features that I for one would never buy one again.

Sounds like it's become victim of its own safety-conscious OCD.

Interviewing in a face mask sounds funny, wish I'd seen that.

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No you didn't. You just said you drove into the back of a Landy.

I know I back off the accelerator first then brake if I need to - only hitting the brake straight away in an emergency stop situation

THEN I hit the Landy 🙁

how does that differ from
brake
clutch in
release brake
apply accelerator to match revs to speed/gear
let clutch out
?

That's all one thing after another. Potentially jerky.

Heel and toe is everything simultaneously. Potentially smoother.

I don't know what I was supposed to learn from the Senna clip but I found it hard to get past the wimpy loafers 🙁 Also his feet seemed to be getting in each other's ways 🙁

The only difference I can see (feel free to point out if i've missed sommat) is a miniscule amount of time between braking and accellerating.

It probably only took m_f a miniscule amount of time to crash into his Landy 🙂

Everything's miniscule in physics, isn't it?

I don't know what I was supposed to learn from the Senna clip

You were supposed to learn what heel-and-toeing is.

Were you expecting something else when you asked 'what is heel and toe?'

Something sexual, perhaps? Something to do with a girl's bottom, maybe?

You were supposed to learn what heel-and-toeing is.

well I am none the wiser. I saw his feet jammed into a confusion but couldn't tell why he was doing it 🙁

Perhaps a description in words explaining what is supposed to be achieved might help... all I've gathered so far is that it's supposed to be 'smoother', whatever that means.

Something to do with a girl's bottom, maybe?

well, now you come to mention it, that might be more interesting...

Go and look at arses on the Friday Arses and Anal thread then!

Go and look at arses on the Friday Arses and Anal thread then!

it's rubbish this week, mostly blokes in lycra 🙁

didn't they burn all the cows and shut the bridleways last time there was heel and toe?

Lucky enough the car in front is a Toyota
and my brakes work

didn't they burn all the cows and shut the bridleways last time there was heel and toe?

😆

well I am none the wiser. I saw his feet jammed into a confusion but couldn't tell why he was doing it

Don't worry yourself, just accept that some people want to drive that way, it doesnt mean you're driving like an idiot if you do, but that a failsafe that eliminates the possibility is pointless when you could just have a key 😉

It seems to me strange that a manufacturer of a 2ton steel lump capable of 150mph doesnt include an E-stop button (ie:a key) of some kind. Goodness knows any other machine would.
Indicative perhaps of the complacency with which we regard the car, in our perception it is simply a high speed lounge suite, we dont see it as a complex and potentially dangerous piece of machinery.

GM and the 'merkins are going to exploit this to the max. Toyota, set out with an ambitious target 10 years ago to be number 1 car mfg in the world. By using TPS and building up a reputation for quality and reliability, they were one of the few car manufacturers in the past couple years that were actually cash rich. All of the big 3 in the US are in serious financial trouble and they will use this to try and discredit Toyota and it's TPS. The Wall Street Journal had a feature the other day blaming 'Lean' for trying to squeeze manufacturing to the point where corners may be cut.
It will be interesting how this pans out to both the Automotive industry and manufacturing as a whole. As Lean manufacturing is the hot management 'new kid on the block'

Don't worry yourself, just accept that some people want to drive that way, it doesnt mean you're driving like an idiot if you do

I'm not worried, just curious. I never drive if I can help it, maybe once every 2 years or so...

in our perception it is simply a high speed lounge suite, we dont see it as a complex and potentially dangerous piece of machinery.

Spot on comment that. Absolutely right. Certainly applies to the idiot in the Audi Q7 behemoth that tear arses into the nursery car park every morning/night when there's pre-school kids being collected.

We're more than happy with our Verso, it's the nicest car we've owned, certainly better than the offerings from Ford/GM we tried before buying.

IMO recalling so many cars is Toyotas way of attempting to completely address the problem, rather than coming out with a load of excuses & burying its corporate head in the sand. (Renault Clio bonnet catches...Volvo XC90's catching fire...Ford Focus's cutting out for no reason...someone mentioned there have been 20 Toyota cars with stuck pedals in the UK, how many weeks running were Renault on Watchdog ?).
Sorry for bucking the trend here, pitchfork me at will. 🙂

I sensed some kind of media glee to see Toyota in a mess. Obviously thought that they were getting a bit too smug making their reliable economical cars and needed to be taken down a peg or two.

I've got one of the Priuses (prii?) effected by this. Noticed it the other day when I did an emergency stop on the ice when a woman coming the other way fell off her bike. (when I eventually stopped I fell on my bum getting out of the car and looked a right bell end). Anyway, yes, it was a bit disconcerting not being able to stop as quickly as I expected to, but frankly I wouldn't have given it another thought if this recall hadn't occurred. I've driven a hell of a lot more dangerous cars over the years. I've also heal and toed in a few of them, but I'd be surprised if anyone ever bothered to try that in a Prius. If you've ever driven one you'll know what I mean.