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So Toyota are facing the biggest PR issue of their history and one of the worst in automotive history since the Ford Pinto, and they've been invited on one of the highest profile morning new shows - BBC Breakfast - to try and explain about the Prius brakes, their second f*ckup.
Now, as I understand it, the problem is that the ABS is set up to be a bit over-keen so that when you hit ice or your wheel finds itself in air over very big potholes etc, it is so paranoid about slipping it backs the brakes right off which is apparently weird and causes unexpected stopping distances. The brakes do still work though, and it's just a configuration issue and perceived scariness - which is a valid point.
So Toyota send this mumbling geek onto the breakfast show who doesn't have English as a first language and is incapable of putting things in simple terms to reassure people. The interviewer gets the idea that if you go over a speedbump your brakes fail, and the Toyota guy can't seem to get it out of his mouth that that is not what he meant. So now people are going round thinking that brakes don't work when it's just a small issue.
Terrible terrible choice at such a crucial time.. what a shame.
That was Miguel Fonseca, MD of Toyota GB. Previously CEO of Toyota ESP.
they do seem to have a bit of a problem with pr.
the first person they lined up to talk to the 'western' media about this conducted the whole thing in a surgical mask (which I know is polite in Japan if you have a cold but doesn't really sit well over here).
Can it be much worse than how they've handled the runaway problem in the US?
They need to change that old window sticker...
"make sure the car behind isn't a Toyota!"
linky??
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Fair play that they have sent the top man rather than a cardboard cutout to look smooth on camera. It's backfired; but maybe he'd have been better on Sky news if he started booing at the end.
This is another media driven fiasco. The snow has gone. No new Haitians have been pulled from the rubble. They need a new axe to grind and as this is something they have no understanding of they blow it up out of all proportion. The most dangerous factor in a Toyota, or any car for that matter, is the idiot behind the wheel.
I caught Fonseca on the Today programme before I left the house. He didn't do much of a better job there, though i agree it's an admirable thing to do to send out the top man.
The most dangerous factor in a Toyota, or any car for that matter, is the idiot behind the wheel.
But to have the added extra danger of sticking accelerators and/or unusual braking behaviours will only make that idiot's driving even more dangerous.
BTW, my brother in law has a brand new Toyota FacelessNamelessBoringCar and has had the sticking accelerator issue twice. But he hadn't bothered taking it to the garage to have it looked at! So yes, idiots behind the wheel really are a factor 😯
Yet more over-hyped media nonsense. Nothing better to do than spend their time blowing things out of proportion.
The sticking accelerator is unfortunate and it could easily have happened to any manufacturer. (Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).
I think Toyota have handled it fairly well.. compare with Ford in the 70s..
There was a similar media scare in the 70s about Audis in the US, turned out the problem was simply the brake and accelerator pedals were closer together than on most US made automatics, and fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals when trying to do emergency stops.
It's just the media hyping things out of all proportion yet again.
The sticking accelerator is unfortunate and it could easily have happened to any manufacturer. (Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).
I'm a little confused by this cutting the engine with brakes applied situation. Are we talking autos here, or keyless cars only? I know for certain that at least the 5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility.
(Although I do wonder why Toyota don't cut the engine when the brakes are applied like many others do. Actually, I must try this in mine).
It's a bugger if you're trying to left-foot brake or heel-toe though.
Interfering Health & safety. Let drivers control cars.
and fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals
I have this problem in my wife's Matiz, tiny pedals and my size 12's don't go well together. On the plus side my toyota is far to old to suffer from any of the current recall problems 🙂
My Toyota's fine. I had it tuned by Kaesae.
My Toyota's fine. I had it tuned by Kaesae.
Is that a joke? A statement?
[edit] Ahhh, read a bit further into that one, funny 🙂
Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.
These idiots get all they desrve
Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.
Me, two of them why, what's your problem with toyotas?
bit off topic, and not a personal sleight, but whats all this 'epic fail' malarkey?
Aren't we all middle aged on here?
fat Americans were planting their great big feet over both pedals when trying to do emergency stops.
I think you'll find when you get fat your feet don't get all that much bigger...
As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe. At least one family would still be alive if their car had this.
CK - I seem to recall a thread here a while ago with people complaining they coulnd't left foot brake in their new cars. It's quite widespread I believe. Certainly Passats do it.
Who the hell buys a Toyota in the first place.
Me, had four of them in total, still own three of those.
Have tried various things & keep going back to them. Fantastc cars imo.
Toyota motor company pioneered quality and production methodologies, which have been adopted by millions of companies in many differing industries worldwide. It is therefore interesting to see how they are reacting to the current problems.
Their production and quality methodologies mean that problems such as this should be "designed out" of the production process, perhaps indicating systemic issues at the manufacturing plants. Their reputation (in my eyes certainly) will live or die based on how they handle this situation, they have more to lose than just the reputation of their cars.
As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe.
In full agreement here tho'
Out of proportion? it's been confirmed as happening to 20 cars in the UK and they are recalling 180,000 cars.
That's not blown out of proportion at all is it? 🙄
It must be a slow news week!
5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility.
Both our Passat (PD) and Golf (newer Tdi) cut the revs if you heel-toe or pull on the handbrake
I've assumed this is the ESP taking over, haven't tried with switching it off.
it's been confirmed as happening to 20 cars in the UK
I know this is purely anecdotal, but my friend has a Toyota and pointed out that the throttle seemed to work by itself before this became news.
The issue may or may not be common, dangerous etc etc. but the guy clearly hadn't had any media training. Before Toyota sent him like a lamb to the slaughter, he should have been better briefed, or they should have sent somebody else. Knowing that the media love to sensationalise everything (which BTW they did this morning) and twist his words, he was simply the wrong man for the job. Clearly English is not his first language and the subtle phrasing required was beyond his ability. Not a criticism of him, as I could not have done any better on a Spanish or Japanese early morning breakfast show in explaining what is quite a complex problem, but he didn't reassure when reassurance was all that was required. I guess nobody at Toyota had the balls to stand up to the 'Top Man' who in true Japanese style decided to fall on his own sword. I can't see it having done his career much good!
The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off. This lets the ecu know the throttle is closed and cuts the fuel intil a predetermined engine speed is reached(usually just above idle). This is to aid fuel useage on over run. In this case the ecu would still think the car needed fuel even if the brakes were applied as the pedal was stuck open.
Interfering Health & safety. Let drivers control cars.
You must have missed the bit about almost all drivers being idiots.
I know this is purely anecdotal, but my friend has a Toyota and pointed out that the throttle seemed to work by itself before this became news.
And as I mentioned above, my brother-in-law has had the problem twice
Agreed there is absolutley no reason on road cars for both brake and accelerator to be "on" at the same time. Only time it's going to happen is accidentally in an emergency stop/big footed oaf situation or some nobber kidding on he's colin mcrae, designing that "feature" out sounds a good idea to me.You must have missed the bit about almost all drivers being idiots.
Only time it's going to happen is accidentally in an emergency stop/big footed oaf situation or some nobber kidding on he's colin mcrae, designing that "feature" out sounds a good idea to me.
So doing a nice, smooth down-shift or gaining a bit of traction in poor conditions is only for "nobbers"?
Remember all the people crashing and failing to cope with the snow about 2 weeks ago? Were they not the real "nobbers"?
I had a Scimitar automatic and you could sit at the lights with the brakes on and if you balanced it right you could get the wheels to spin without moving forward.
I think that feature is worth keeping.
The engine isnt usually cut by the brakes but by the fact that during braking the accelerator pedal in lifted off.
Knottie, it still cuts throttle even when I have my foot ON the throttle and press the brake at the same time - left foot braking. None of us on here are daft enough not to realise that in order to right-foot brake you have to lift your foot off the accelerator!
So doing a nice, smooth down-shift or gaining a bit of traction in poor conditions is only for "nobbers"?
When is heel-toe required for smooth downshifts? When your synchromesh is knackered I think. I can do this, and have done in cars with knackered gearboxes, but I've certainly never needed to do it otherwise. And I drive very smoothly!
As for snow - I had not a single incident in the snow despite not heel-toe or left foot braking once. Not even sure when you'd need to tbh. And I live at the bottom of a steep un-gritted hill.
"I'm a little confused by this cutting the engine with brakes applied situation. Are we talking autos here, or keyless cars only? I know for certain that at least the 5 series BMW auto doesnt cut the engine when brakes are applied, and most manual cars dont either, heel-toe driving would be an impossibility."
My wife's manual 1.4 diesel Polo does it, well it doesnt kill the engine, but it certainly kills all the power output from the engine. Makes an very dull car even more dull to drive 🙁
As for left foot/heel-toe braking.. losing the ability to do a racing car technique in cars that are just made for ferrying people about is a small price to pay for an added fail safe. At least one family would still be alive if their car had this.
It's not a racing car technique, its just a technique that's very handy and promotes smooth driving and better downshifts. Assuming everyone who does it is a nob driving like an idiot on the roads, just because you don't feel the need to do so, is completely rediculous and myopic. I know people from young idiots to 60 year old women (She's not 60 anymore, but she was when I met her and she was driving!) who learned to drive during the war that do it, so such statements are purely idle thought. At the end of the day it's the lack of ignition switch killing the car that killed the family, not removing the ability to heel-toe or brake while pressing the gas. As far as I'm concerned removing the key/mechanical kill is simply a lazy-person-friendly feature and should be the subject of anger, not the fact tht they chose to leave the accel and brake mutually exclusive.
It's not a racing car technique, its just a technique that's very handy and promotes smooth driving and better downshifts
I whole heartedly disagree. It's not in any way necessary driving normally about in a modern car, and I invite you to prove that it is.
60 year old women who learned to drive during the war that do it
Yeah, in cars without synchromesh. Which haven't been made for decades.
And I didn't brand anyone a knob, I just said that it's a technique that's not needed on normal roads (EVER) so removing it in favour of another fail-safe is a good idea.
At the end of the day it's the lack of ignition switch killing the car that killed the family, not removing the ability to heel-toe or brake while pressing the gas
This would have saved their lives, no? So it's a bad thing why? I kind of agree about the ignition switch too - buttons are a pointless gimmick. But giving more ways to control an out of control car is a good thing - a panicked driver might only have time to think of one.
Cutting power when I applied the brakes would really annoy me and would be a reason fro me not to buy a car.
Apart from the fact it's nice to do a bit of heel and toe when diving enthusiastically on a nice clear country road, It's also a technique I have to use fairly regularly when manoeuvring:
My house is at the end of a dead end road that is quite steep. I have to turn my car somewhere in it to get out. If it's slippery (snow etc.) then often the handbrake is insufficient to hold the car since it only acts on 2 wheels, so I have to you use the foot brake to hold the car while also using the clutch and accelerator to start moving in the opposite direction.
I'd have to use the wall to hold the car if I couldn't do this 😕
Are Toyota paying for advertising on [i]every[/i] forum? Or jut ones where the posters are taking an inordinate amount of interest in things that don't really effect them? er... 😉
then often the handbrake is insufficient to hold the car since it only acts on 2 wheels
thanks, I was wondering why anyone would want throttle & brake pressed at once...
OK glenH might have a point there, but what's this
? sounds like cobblers to me. Brake, slow down then use clutch+go pedal to downshift, where do you need brake+go pedal together? unless you trying to shave 0.5 seconds off your 45min commute.smooth driving and better downshifts