[Closed] Tottenham Riots

I say send Teresa May out on the streets, that's distract a lot of them...

So enfit and the others who hate my / elfs/ Ernies analysis two questions.

1) why has this happened?
2) how to prevent it happening again?

Personnally I find the behaviour I'm seeing on the box appalling. No matter what state I was in financially I would never think it was ok to go rob and set things on fire.

Something seriously broken in these peoples minds if they think in any way it is a political protest - as they are hurting their own communities.

Lowlifes.

I have no solution. Maybe national service to try and teach them some discipline and respect!?

1) why has this happened?
2) how to prevent it happening again?

Can you..?

Psx I dont hate

Personnally I find the behaviour I'm seeing on the box appalling. No matter what state I was in financially I would never think it was ok to go [s]rob and set things on fire[/s] [b]be bailed out for utter failure, then rewarded with huge bonuses. And now be threatened with tax cuts.[/b]

Something seriously broken in these peoples minds if they think in any way it is a [s]political protest[/s] [b]decent way to behave[/b] - as they are [s]hurting[/s] [b]smug in[/b] their own communities.

Lowlifes.

I have no solution. Maybe national service to try and teach them some discipline and respect!?

[b]BLOCK WAAARRRR!![/b]

[img] [/img]

The earthquake in Japan recently caused much greater suffering and displaced thousands yet there was no looting.
Hurricane Katrina caused similar damage and had widespread looting in New Orleans.
London and in other cities is seeing similar problems to New Orleans.
What have the japanese got right that we in the west got wrong?
Respect? Discipline? Sense of community spirit? FFS even the yakuza helped to deliver aid to the needy.
It's not because they are poor neglected and needy. They are disrespectful, thieving, opportunistic, lazy, selfish, greedy bastards.

Shock and Hora will resolve this current unrest 😛

Flashbangs optional.

Well said KT1973

erm, not sure if that is some attempt to dig at me? I don't agree with the whole banking bonus situation either.

I really can't say what I want to say. I just can't.

DT78 - Member
erm, not sure if that is some attempt to dig at me? I don't agree with the whole banking bonus situation either.

No, I think it's just the usual cheap retort of "bashabanker". It's very now, don't you know?

I really can't say what I want to say. I just can't.

You want to be butt-****ed by me in every conceivable position? Spit it out man.

If anyone thinks this situation has only come about since the last general election, they are further off the plot than the usual suspects around these parts.

Too few resources that haven't been well enough applied across all social, educational and policing sectors. Too much statistic and target chasing by those sectors has led to where we are now.

That and too many people who believe the definition of 'parenting' stops after the physical act required to initiate children.

So enfit and the others who hate my / elfs/ Ernies analysis two questions
1) why has this happened?
2) how to prevent it happening again?

1 - Ernie is a marxist, he just stops typing before his true solutions are expressed

2 - I don't think anyone yet has a solution to prevent this happening again, but a good starting point would involve rubber bullets, long prison sentences and heavier policing. However I don't see how this justifies RudeFred's ludicrous nonsense

On the plus side, Kate Silverton is looking rather nice on the news right now

I'd also provide Baby oil and some nice Baileys for us to drink.

The earthquake in Japan recently caused much greater suffering and displaced thousands yet there was no looting.
Hurricane Katrina caused similar damage and had widespread looting in New Orleans.
London and in other cities is seeing similar problems to New Orleans.
What have the japanese got right that we in the west got wrong?
Respect? Discipline? Sense of community spirit? FFS even the yakuza helped to deliver aid to the needy.
It's not because they are poor neglected and needy. They are disrespectful, thieving, opportunistic, lazy, selfish, greedy bastards.

Japanese society may be different, but you can also buy schoolgirls panties from vending machines? and they actually gloss over a lot of the crime and depravity in the country, the homelessness and the suicide rates are much higher than the UK.
And lets not forget that hurricane katrina was a very different disaster the the earthquake and tsunami that hit Japan, there was nothing left to loot in Japan.

TandemJeremy - Member

goes back a lot longer TSY - as in the two posts I quoted from Ernie and Elf. We as a society have created an underclass of dienfranchised and alienated youth. See the quotes below.

So - solutions? Redistribution of wealth, end to the deliberate policy of creating a large pool of unemployed, thus a return to (nearly) full employment. Sensible drug laws, reform of the Met, investment in education.

Investment in social work / youth work.

and of course now - regain control of the streets calmly and methodically by using appropriate force by the police.

Still the most sensible stuff posted on here about the riots and how our society got so fracured as to allow this to happen. In order to heal we first must diagnose what went wrong.

So its clear you're suggesting that the government that presided over years of these yoot's upbringings have casued it due to their policies.
Live on benefits, its easier than working and you get as much, if not more pay, especially if you have a few kids.

ELF
Truth is that increasing numbers of people just don't care any more, about their society, their community, and worst of all, themselves.

Very true. If you get something for nothing you don't value it.

Ah ok.

I would be interested to know if anyone (policitican/police/religious leader) has or will have the balls to spoke about the factual demographic of the rioters / protesters.

Racy subject I know....

shopkeepers in Wellingborough and Kettering have been told to lock up and get out by the police, kick off @ 2.00 pm

I'm finding myself falling into a murky middle ground reaction here of agreeing with the rubber bullet water cannon CS gas approach in the short term but aligning myself with the TJ/Ernie/Elf approach in the mid to longer term. I guess it's a bit of a tread softly but carry a big stick mentality.

I don't think deploying the army would be a good idea, partially as we don't really want the government to have mandate to impose martial law for future events. This should stay a Police matter. but also the army have spent the last few years working in an extremely hostile environment and the mental adjustment required to dealing with a domestic situation requiring less lethal responses would be likely be difficult to manage.

As for National service. Every time I've seen a response from the services on this it's pretty negative. Don't really see that we should expect to have professional armed forces and expect them to also be triple up as social workers and Prison guards.

Having followed this thread from the start I don't believe many people have been apologists for the actions of the looters. The non reactionary views are generally put forward as an attempt to understand the factors that lead to these events and not to excuse them. Understand and minimise the contributing factors and you minimise the likelihood of it happening repeatedly in the future.

Is it cheaper and less destructive to society to wait for the crimes to happen then deal with the perpetrators or to try and change our society so that such events don't happen, at least not on the scale that we have seen for the last three nights?

KT1973 - summed up perfectly.

Rudy Giuliani's 'cop on every corner' is what is needed in problem areas. How do you pay for that though?

No way to National Service, I'd have never wanted these dimwits backing me up.

Just an idea on the suitable punishment front....here goes. Prisons no answer as it's be said they just wouldn't care. It's also been said they have nothing to loose (which isn't true) so punishment would mean taking something tangible away from them. And one thing that must be said of these people is that they are very image consious. So is that something that could be taken from them? and would it matter to them?
With community service they seem to be kept out of site, what about putting them right back into sight and stripped of identity. I suppose like a version of the stocks, but human rights compatable.
Good God I am Mr Daily Mail....and there's more! Everywhere I go I see mess and sometimes I think there's a whole workforce on hand that could sort it for free, wether they liked it or not.
I don't know, not one single thing works for everyone. Some folk might bite your hand off for a chance, others would probably turn down a job for life and take a pair of new trainers instead. Everything works in degrees, but wholesale changes for good don't.

The earthquake in Japan recently caused much greater suffering and displaced thousands yet there was no looting.

[url= http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703410604576216293024644156.html ]Not strictly true.[/url]

Although the looting was on a far smaller scale, according to reports.

Interesting point though; what is the mentality that drives people to loot stuff?

Yes, greed is at the core of it, but we should be looking at why people are so greedy? In Africa and New Orleans, I spose most of the looting is driven by a need to secure some sort of capital, in order to have a modicum of economic power. Quite understandable in a 'survival' situation.

The looting here seems to be driven by greed and a 'must have shiny thing' mindset. But it's all about degrees of things; how many on here are in debt with their credit cards etc, for stuff they don't really need? Why not wait until you have the money before you spend it? And how many will fiddle their tax, or buy something from abroad and avoid paying import duty, etc?

And I think there's a woeful lack of actual knowledge and experience of situations where mass hysteria takes place. Not condoning the actions of the looters, but it's very very easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment, and do stuff you normally woon't.

Too many people on here just not interested in trying to understand, as that takes more brain work than simply jerking yer knee and spouting all sorts of what is ultimately defensive vitriol.

Y'know, you're not actually all that different to those doing stuff you find abhorrent, really. As unpleasant and uncomfortable an idea that may be. You work hard to disassociate yourself from those you see as somehow inferior to you, but we're all Human, there's no escaping that.

Interesting that many of those calling for harsh action against the rioters are the same that claim they would willingly break the Law themselves if someone broke into their home, stole their bike, etc....

So its clear you're suggesting that the government that presided over years of these yoot's upbringings have casued it due to their policies.

Yu what?

I suggest it goes back to the late 70s and the last Tory government - the created the mass unemployment as a deliberate policy and then removed much of the support system. A generation or two later we reap the reward of a completely alienated and disenfranchised part of the population. complicity goes to every government since then although labour did make some vague attempts to alleviate the situation.

Live on benefits, its easier than working and you get as much, if not more pay, especially if you have a few kids.

what sort of fantasy world do you live in. Do you know what benefit rates are?

CHF - simply pointing out that being rude and crass, arrogant and above the law, dismissive towards the majority, rewarded by tax payers for failure, taught to work the system for their own gain, and being admired by peers for flaunting material possessions are not traits and behaviors confined to rioting youth.

Can't argue with what this lady is saying. Good on her.

Seriously, you're blaming the Tories, again?

Having seen some of the kids arriving in Ealing last night and walking down my street, my assumption is that the perpetrators there were

Of school, or school leaving age, from out of the area, didn't look particularly poor.

Just opportunistic criminal activity driven by the right weather conditions and having nothing else to do.

Sure there maybe some disaffected youth in Tottenham, and there are poor pockets in Ealing, and they may have been dragged into it, but in the main this is just ****ts who need to be hit over the head by a copper with a big stick ASAP

as that takes more brain work than simply jerking yer knee

Typical defense RudeFred, shout abouse when you have nothing credible

Move along before I arrest you for obstruction

Ok so Now answer question 2 TJ,
(I don't think you're 100% right onq1)

Do you know what benefit rates are?

They are more than what you think they are (IF you are a single female parent).

I did J_me

TandemJeremy

So - solutions? Redistribution of wealth, end to the deliberate policy of creating a large pool of unemployed, thus a return to (nearly) full employment. Sensible drug laws, reform of the Met, investment in education.

Investment in social work / youth work.

and of course now - regain control of the streets calmly and methodically by using appropriate force by the police.

Do you know the cost of childcare?

Do you know what benefit rates are?

They are more than what you think they are (IF you are a [b]single female parent[/b]).

You're trolling, aren't you Hora?

Nobody can be that thick...

Elfin I'm guessing her fella is a Pirate?

http://www.****/news/article-1250993/Single-mum-finds-mansion-net-gets-YOU-pay-7-000-month-rent.html

(is that going to make Elfin cry with anger and get me banned again for upsetting a village idiot?)

😆

Typical defense RudeFred, shout abouse when you have nothing credible

Not credible to you perhaps, but maybe a little more credible than your made-up stories about what your colleague's mum's friend's uncle's mate saw...

Don't see where the 'abuse' is though. Maybe you're just uncomfortable with the truth?

My sister shared a tube carriage with some blokes on their way to do some looting last night - pretty clear that's what they were doing as they were heading that way, wearing hoodies, had scarves/things to hide their faces oh and they were quite openly talking about the fact that's what they were going to do...

Commuting to looting... only in London.

Strikes me that the protesting/rioting and the looting are very different things.

TJ I missed that, nice. And care for the elderly.

They are disrespectful, thieving, opportunistic, lazy, selfish, greedy bastards.

So are the media, the bankers and the politicians. Actually you could aim a fair bit of that at the middle classes too couldn't you?

What happened last night was an expression of our society. Like it or not it is actually up to us to sort this out. No-one else will. Prevention is always better than cure right? Yes, prosecute those involved and deter others from starting but creating conditions in communities where young people actually see a point to living with respect towards each other that doesn't rely on weapons and violence is fundemental.

We've got a chance now. After this and the news international stuff there's clear evidence that our structure has failed for those at the bottom whilst those at the top get richer. It needs to be changed or this will keep happening. What we saw last night was significant. It was a message to the police - WE ARE NOT SCARED OF YOU. If the only response is force then we are sowing the seeds for more of the same.

[url] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6359363.stm [/url]

Thats where we start.

Oh and it doesn't matter who's fault it is.

Elfin I'm guessing her fella is a Pirate?

There you go with your ignorant racism again Hora. The woman's nationality is irrelevant in this case, yet you chose to make a big deal about it and make stupid ignorant bigoted comments.

And that's nothing compared to what you have to pay for this family's home:

[img] [/img]

Great pic

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pixel-eight/6024429000/

Arrr mi matey

Commuting to looting... only in London.

Shame it wasn't in Tooting...

Nothing made up RudeFred, but carry on convincing yourself it is though by all means

Not a million miles away...

hora - Member

Elfin I'm guessing her fella is a Pirate?

http://www.****/news/article-1250993/Single-mum-finds-mansion-net-gets-YOU-pay-7-000-month-rent.html

(is that going to make Elfin cry with anger and get me banned again for upsetting a village idiot?)

WTF she's got a child named 'Jihad' ?!

piha - Member

Can't argue with what this lady is saying. Good on her.

+1 on that. Fair play.

Nobody can be that thick...

Now, that is not very tolerant.

Anyway....

[img] [/img]

Yossarian is bang on the money. But what has our beloved tory government done to this end? Undermined the whole Sure Start programme. One of the few genuinely useful things the labour lot did.

Trying to arrest the effects of gross inequality on the very poorest at an early age, thus giving them some hope of educational achievement, or at least not get left behind.

We're going backwards, and every society has a tipping point for the inequality where it simply won't be tolerated by the majority any more. I think we may be reaching ours

And remember its the middle classes incomes that are under assault now, while the rich get ever richer. Yes... you're next!

Tolerance is only applicable if you agree with what the person is saying 😉

Now, that is not very tolerant.

'Tolerance' and 'Hora' aren't two words you'd expect to hear in the same sentence...

Binners short of printing more money or amasing even more debt for our grand kids to pay off...where do you suggest the money should come from?

How about some fair taxation on the rich and a clamp down on tax avoidance.

rIf you're down for making money, we're about to go hard in east london tonight, yes tonight!! I don't care what ends you're from, we're personally inviting you to come and get it in. Police have taken the piss for too long and to be honest I don't know why its taken so long for us make this happen. We need a minimum of 200 hungry people. We're not broke, but who says no to free stuff. Doesn't matter if the police arrive cos we'll just chase dem out because as you've seen on the news, they are NOT ON DIS TING. Finders keepers and we all look after each other so if you see someone getting grab by feds then make sure we help stamp out that ***** PIG. M.O.B money over bobbies =D broadcast this to everyone you know and let's get paid!! RE SEND. LONDON MESSAGE" - Blackberry messenger

How about some fair taxation on the rich and a clamp down on tax avoidance.

[i]"we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want"[/i]

Teenage girl on BBC news being asked why people are looting shops in their own 'community'

There it is.

The tax system could be tightened up considerably... simply making people & corporations pay the appropriate tax rate would raise a fair bit would it not?

taxation on the rich

Don't start picking on me 🙂

If I can't get my skinny latte and have to pay tax I may go outside and kick a bin!

5thElefant - Member

How about some fair taxation on the rich and a clamp down on tax avoidance.

Tax avoidance is completely legal. Like claiming shoes you use for work against tax.

Bish. Bash. Bosh.

well reducing the top rate of tax isn't the answer is it? Though that, depressingly yet again, is the tories only answer

People have to start seeing as what it is. Its a long term investment in the future of this country. If the kids that are out on the street burning stuff had actually had some investment in their education, to ensure they didn't fall catastrophically behind their middle class pears at primary level, then maybe they wouldn't be burning and looting.

Combine this with the removal of the EMA and the increase in student fees and what you're effectively achieving is educational apartheid.

TJ - I'm all for "fair" taxation

why should we tax people who work for a living and give it to people who can't be ****ing arsed?

What's "fair" about that?

have we done these 2 yet? (sorry cant be bothered reading 28 pages)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424 <

had actually had some investment in their education, to ensure they didn't fall catastrophically behind their middle class pears at primary level, then maybe they wouldn't be burning and looting.

Education, education, education, perhaps? Now where have I heard that before?

Nice pears, by the way! 😉

The tax system could be tightened up considerably... simply making people & corporations pay the appropriate tax rate would raise a fair bit would it not?

It's a balancing act.

why should we tax people who work for a living and give it to people who can't be **** arsed?

What's "fair" about that?

Stop picking on bankers....

TandemJeremy - Member

How about some fair taxation on the rich and a clamp down on tax avoidance.

Indeed. And avoid wasting money sending military into other countries on the pretence that it 'makes our society safer'

terrorism- the biggest threat to safety on the streets of the capital- remember that one?!
😆

Binners, perhaps if they thought that they actually needed to work hard and make an effort at school, it would make a difference?

Why bother making an effort, cause if you don't, then the state will house you and feed you anyway! working is a mugs game! the state gives me free money without having to!

All this political point scoring needs to stop. Take note flashy.

sorry if [url= http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html ]this[/url] has been posted already

I tolerate Pirates. Especially if they have nice Parrots

I'm taking it the people who are expressing views about the '****less unemployed' haven't spent any time unemployed themselves recently? And I hope you never do

Believe me, the reality of life on benefits is about as far removed from the Daily Mails depiction of a nice cushy layabout lifestyle as it is possible to get. Its soul destroying!!!

Don't have time to read all of this in my lunch hour, but TJ / Binners / Elfin / Yossarian are making the most sense.

We are most economically unequal of all the developed countries apart from America, and this huge gulf between the richest and poorest sectors needs to be reduced - there is neither need nor justification for these levels of income disparity.

My only other addition is to consider how, as a society, we can ALL (and not just the poorer sectors!) value other aspects of life than just money. The research I do on understanding what people value in life, and what they consider contributes to their 'well-being' does not just focus on monetary attributes, but recognises social connections, health etc. Changing our society's aspirations away from the purely financial needs ot happen at the 'top' - ie lets see a lead being taken by the more money-grabbing elements in Canary Wharf, than just putting all the responsibility of the 'poor' to change.

going by the standard of brick throwing they really need to re-introduce cricket ball throwing back into sports syllabus. They throw like girls.

I'm quite impressed that this thread is still going, and that STW poweres that be have seen nothing yet to warrant closing it.

Perhaps the STW powers that be are out 'shopping' at the minute.

Yossarian is bang on the money. But what has our beloved tory government done to this end? Undermined the whole Sure Start programme. One of the few genuinely useful things the labour lot did.

You reckon? The only people who actually used Sure Start round here were the middle class mums who wanted to take their toddler to a well organised group. The people it was aimed at didn't use it as that would involve leaving the house.

Here's a clip of MiCycle in London being turned over. Can all the apologists explain what gives this knob heads to destroy peoples hard earned businesses?

Time for the baton rounds and night sticks. If you are on the streets causing mayhem you get a shoeing. No more police holding lines watching the mob destroy homes, businesses, cars. They should be getting stuck in and dishing out some of the only justice these yobs understand.

The disparity in income referred to above is largely self inflicted by a large part of society being quite happy to hang onto the coat tails of the welfare state and following in their non-working parents footsteps. The enormous wealth gathering by some is fairly distasteful but it's no worse than it's ever been in the past, it's just gathered through different means now (banking etc)

binners - Member

I'm taking it the people who are expressing views about the '****less unemployed' haven't spent any time unemployed themselves recently? And I hope you never do

Believe me, the reality of life on benefits is about as far removed from the Daily Mails depiction of a nice cushy layabout lifestyle as it is possible to get. Its soul destroying!!!

probably not as soul destroying however as being woken up by partying 'never-want-to-be-employed' in the flat above you at 3am when you're trying to get some kip before the days work that you know will leave you little better off than them at the end of the month

binners - Member
I'm taking it the people who are expressing views about the '****less unemployed' haven't spent any time unemployed themselves recently? And I hope you never do

Believe me, the reality of life on benefits is about as far removed from the Daily Mails depiction of a nice cushy layabout lifestyle as it is possible to get. Its soul destroying!!

These people use benefits as a base and deal in drugs, violence and stolen goods.

In reality NO ONE can survive on benefits alone! Which begs the question, exactly what do the longterm 'unemployed' do here in Manchester to make ends meet?...

What have I missed?

Is it worth reading back over the last few pages?

*headbutts keyboard*

And on that note - the most brainless, moronic sweeping generalisation I've ever heard - I'm out