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It's lovely isn't it?
Yeah I forgot about the Thermos flask.
It is indeed an object of rare beauty. 🙂
EDIT
I mean the engine, not the flask! 😉
The expropriation of British Icons as English ones such as the spitfire are a symptom of the malaise that upsets the non english brits.
Was it England or Britain that fought in the war, built and flew these planes?
Celebrate England and Englishness by all means - just don't confuse British with English
Celebrate England and Englishness by all means - just don't confuse British with English
I'm not. That's your job. 😉
im proud to be english and british every day
i dont really need a day devoted to some christian saint forced upon us by our norman conquerers to feel good about this country
The expropriation of British Icons as English ones such as the spitfire are a symptom of the malaise that upsets the non english brits.Was it England or Britain that fought in the war, built and flew these planes?
Celebrate England and Englishness by all means - just don't confuse British with English
TJ. You've made your point i think.
Now back to the pub for another spitfire.
good to see nearly 250 posts celebrating St Georges Day
I wish the best for all of you.
*raises a glass of ale * to this warm sunny green yet dusty plesant land
Ride on.
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(The Hovercraft, not the RNLI)
uplink - +1 for the 'beer engine'!
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-terrible book, mind...
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Designed in England built in England, later on parts were built elsewhere.
Britain amongst others fought in the war?
The plane itself however is of English origin design and build. It is what it is that we celebrate not what it did. It is not a symbol of England, but it is a symbol of great engineering which just so happens to be English.
+1
LHS, The Vanguard class submarines are British (Royal Navy) and are all based in Scotland, how is that English?
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LHS, The Vanguard class submarines are British (Royal Navy) and are all based in Scotland, how is that English?
Submarines in general - invented by William Bourne
I'm sorry, but you can't separate an instrument of war from War itself.
Yes you can, easily, unless you have a comeplete lack of self-control and get all wound up by the unpleasnatry of war whenever you see a weapon. I can look at the spitfire as a nice piece of engineering, regardless of what it was used for. I have massive admiration for the guidance electronics in guided missiles, I think they're great. Of course blowing people up isn't nice though, but thats entirely seperate. And there's the positive spin you can always use on "better" weapons - the better they are, generally (these days) the less damage is done to civilians and the more decisive a blow can be, with luck reducing overall damage on the road to victory.
Ok, i can see I've ruffled a few feathers...
My point is, the the Spitfire, along with the Hurricane, and all other military hardware, were developed as part of the British war effort, and considered British, not English. For English Nationalists to hijack the Spitfire as a symbol of Englishness, regardless of whatever petty excuse they might try to hide behind, is insulting to Britain and all those who fought for British freedom. Indeed, Spitfires were equipped with American Browning machine guns, and parts were made all over the British Isles, as well as abroad, by workers from all over the Commonwealth. IE, it's not uniquely or distinctly 'English'. History books don't talk about the Spitfire as 'English', do they?
Anyway, back on topic:
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England to me. Not all of this is solely english and for me its very hard to separate my love for britain and england but.........
The land of green rolling hills and farmland shaped by the actions of mankind over millennia. A pint of ale sat outside a thatched pub on a spring day after a walk across the moors. Cricket on the village green.
My great grandparents farm. Unchanged for hundreds of years.
A land of thinkers and doers. A land of tolerance and eccentricity.
A land of diversity in its peoples and its countryside.
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Hmm, but stuff like the Spitfire were planned and funded by the British Govt, surely? Does that count? Personally I don't think so.
English things to me: Cricket, Morris Dancing, Magna Carta, Civil War, Levellers, Alfred, Saxon art, Tea and Scones and so on. I'd not want to include anything paid for by the British govt or British Economy... I think you'd have a hard time find things distinctively English and not British after say the Act of Union with Scotland...
Edit: And the language and a lot of its literature.
Ah yes football that famous Greek game.
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Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over. Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?
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TM - underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?
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Bit pointless claiming football as 'English'
Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.
IE, 'English'.
Molgrips; d'you want a fight, or what? 😀
As far as I'm concerned, an item can only really be classified as "belonging to" or emblematic of a country if it was primarily conceived, designed and built in that country. If you WANT to separate it into a national thing, then the spitfire is English. Part of the British war effort, but it's English designed and made. That doesn't detract from other parts of the british isles' participation in the war unless you think that somehow the plane was scottish/welsh etc, they had other contributions. The whole point I made in the other thread is that I rarely consider myself anything, if I'm forced to decide I'm English. If you ask me what the spitfire signifies, it's the british war effort, if you ask me who made it it's the English. We're a union, workign together, but that doesn't mean each side can't claim its own contribution to that effort.
Not at all. Football is universally accepted as an 'English' game. The rules were first established in England. The first games were played in England.
Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)
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Coffeeking +1
Much the same as how the spitfire was first conceived in England and the planes first designed and built in England? Despite it being considered a british game by america (who forget that britain isn't England)
Nope. The Spitfire is historically considered as 'British', rather than 'English'. Football is recognised as an 'English' game.
Next.
Some of this stuff is going over some of your heads like an English Electric lightning...
I think that something being defined as 'of' a country would be defined as who currently owns it. Try telling the Brazilians that football's not their game.
Same goes for the English language in truth. Just because it was invented here doesn't mean it's emblematic of us any more.
My point re Engish v British is that after a certain point, our country is no longer England but Britain, so our achievements cannot be seperated out into the different regions of Britain. Engineering etc was made possible by the British economy, not the English one.
I would say again that something English in this context has to be primarily associated with England historically and currently. This is not true of football, or the language. Cricket is arguable, since it's mainly an English game in Britain (being not played much in the other parts) and it's really only played in the ex-empire countries as a consequence of British rule. I say arguable, since India for example support the game better than we do.
Submarines in general - invented by William Bourne
Although William Bourne designed a prototype submarine in 1578, the idea was nothing new and it is not know (although speculated) if this design was used by Cornelius Jacobszoon (a Dutchman) in the first successful submarine in 1620, therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.
Talkemother
The Spitfire was designed by an Englishman.
That is all.
Do you understand?
Bit pointless claiming football as 'English' since it's now played the world over.
A ridiculous arguement. How would the Scots feel to know that golf is no longer theirs? Or the welsh no longer had umm, err, oh nevermind.
Does it really count where it was invented when it's now owned and loved (and played better) by everyone?
Except the Welsh, obviously.
Football, Cricket and Rugby are English, I'm only partially English and I know that.
TM - underground mostly developed by an American, ne c'est pas?
the underground may have been but the map is certainly an iconic design, by Harry Beck, an englishman
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damn it I bit
Ale time
therefore you cannot claim submarines as being an English invention.
I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.
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I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.
Wow, that's such a convincing argument I must be wrong... 🙄
All of these debates about what can count as English just show up how silly the whole concept it - most of the good things that have come about are a result of collaborations, often between people from all sorts of different countries and backgrounds.
Picking a tiny area of an already small island and deciding to be 'proud' of things from inside those boundaries is somewhat weird imo.
I think if you look at the top of the page, i did, therefore you are wrong.
I could eat a bowl of alphabetti spaghetti and sh*t a better argument than that!