[Closed] Today, if you're English...

"The Fighting Temeraire" is a good analogy of England today. A battered, has-been half-rotten old warship being towed back to the scrapyard by something more modern, to be broken up.

MrSparkle - great choice of pics.

Mr Woppit......you're such a happy soul

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmbeeeer.

I've got some home brew on the go in the garage. Slurp.

"The Fighting Temeraire" is a good analogy of England today. A battered, has-been half-rotten old warship being towed back to the scrapyard by something more modern, to be broken up.

It's funny how the nice weather seems to bring out the best in people.

Who's our 'proper' patron saint?

St Edmund - St George is Patron Saint of "places that can't think for themselves"...Georgia excepted!!!

From Wiki

Saint George is the patron saint of Aragon, Catalonia, England, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, and Russia, as well as the cities of Amersfoort, Beirut, Fakiha, Bteghrine, Cáceres (Spain), Ferrara, Freiburg, Genoa, Ljubljana, Gozo, Milan, Pomorie, Preston, Salford, Qormi, Rio de Janeiro, Lod, Barcelona and Moscow, as well as a wide range of professions, organizations, and disease sufferers.

Although St Edmund has been the patron-saint of England for well over a thousand years, he has gradually been sidelined and today, in this land without saints, he is almost forgotten. Indeed, ever since the definitive establishment of the Normans in this country in the twelfth century, he has come to be neglected. Just as the Normans attempted to replace popular veneration for the Righteous English King Alfred with their fairy-tales and myths of the Non-English King Arthur, so they also tried to replace the memory of the English St Edmund with their crusaders' version of St George.

Edmund (Eadmund) was born on Christmas Day 841. Christian from infancy, in 856 he succeeded to the throne of what was perhaps the cradle of the English Nation in East Anglia. During his brief reign he came to fight alongside the future King Alfred in order to defend England from the invasions of the pagan Vikings. In 869 a great Viking army landed on the shores of his kingdom and Edmund marched out at the head of his army to defend the realm. The King was defeated and captured. In captivity he was ordered to renounce his faith and become a vassal of the heathen Danes, orders which he stoutly rejected. Repeating the name of Christ with his heart and his lips, he told them: 'Living or dead, nothing shall separate me from the love of Christ'. He was tied to a tree, tortured by being shot through with arrows, and then beheaded. His martyrdom took place on 20 November 869 at Hoxne in High Suffolk and his body was buried in a small wooden chapel nearby.

In 902 the relics, still incorrupt, were translated to Bedricsworth, at the very crossways of the four counties of Eastern England - Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Cambridgeshire. This town soon came to be called 'Edmundstowe', 'Edmundston' and finally was renamed Bury St. Edmunds. From this time on St Edmund became a local, and soon, national patron. In 929 the humble pilgrim King Athelstan founded a community to care for his shrine. In 945 another royal grandson of King Alfred, called Edmund, gave them further lands. St. Edmund had become the ideal English hero, a king and a martyr. The last purely English King of England, Edmund Ironside (+1014), was also named after him. In 1020 a monastic church was built over his shrine by King Canute and this was served by monks from Ely. Even after the final Viking Invasion and Occupation of 1066, the martyr's relics were placed in a refurbished shrine in a new church in 1095 and they continued to be a place of national pilgrimage.

However, in 1199 the French King of England, Richard I, was to call at the tomb of St. George in Lydda, while on the Third Crusade. Invoking the saint, he won a great victory and consequently placed himself and his army under St. George's protection. St. Edmund, however, remained the national patron. Thus in 1214 the future Magna Carta barons, in opposing Richard's younger brother, King John, rode to Bury St. Edmunds on St Edmund's day to make a pledge at the altar of St. Edmund to strengthen the national cause. In 1215 the Magna Carta was signed by King John in the water meadows of Runnymede. As a result of this historic event the motto of Bury St Edmunds remains to this day: 'Shrine of a King, Cradle of the Law'.

However, in the dynastic struggle after the hated King John's death in 1216, nearly all St Edmund's relics were stolen by French knights in 1217. They were taken to Toulouse in France and here they remained until 1901. The first consequence of this loss was that three years later, in 1220, St. George, already the personal patron of the sovereign, was inserted in the national calendar by Richard I's nephew, Henry III (1216-1272). Although the banner of St. Edmund was still carried by English forces in battle, by the time of Edward I (1272-1307) it had been joined by the banner of St. George.

The eclipse of St. Edmund continued in the reign of Edward III (1327-77) with the founding of the Order of the Garter dedicated to Our Lady and St. George. The English veneration of kingship allowed St. George to usurp the national patronage, although his title was never patron but 'specyel protectour and defendour of this royaume' (special protector and defender of the realm). However, even as late as the reign of Richard 11 (1377-99), a fine representation of St. Edmund as a national patron was made in the Wilton Diptych. In this he was accompanied by Edward the Confessor and St. John the Baptist as personal patrons, and there was still no sign of St. George.

Although in the reign of Henry VII (1457-1509), St. George was still only designated 'protector of the realm', it was under the Machiavellian tyrant Henry VIII (1491-1547) that St. Edmund became totally eclipsed. Henry actually removed St Edmund's name from the litanies of saints venerated in England and in 1539 he had the monastery at St Edmundsbury dissolved. Indeed after the Protestant Reformation, St George came to be one of the few saints to be at all known to the Protestant Church in England. Most of the relics of St Edmund (not the head-relic) were returned to the Roman Catholic authorities in England in 1901 and they are kept locked away at a private Catholic chapel in Arundel in Sussex.

It is our belief that these relics will not return to their home-town and their rightful veneration until English people return to him and all the values for which he stands. As Orthodox, with a history going back not only beyond the 469 years of the Protestant phase of English history (1535-2004), but also beyond the 469 years of the Roman Catholic phase of our island history (1066-1535), we believe that it is time for us to restore St Edmund to his rightful place in our history and in our hearts. He is the Light from the East, the gift born on Christmas Day, the defender of England and the defender of the right, the miracle of national unity and the revival of Christian Orthodoxy and national patriotism. His name, meaning 'blessed protection', recalls to us the words of his ancient hymn:

Seems to me like he fought for England and died for (and in England) - Unlike St george, who never* set foot in England
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* Probably

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Christ! there are some utterly joyless bastards on here.

Another celebration of wonderful culture:

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Ah yes. The Magna Carta. Made such a difference to the serfs - getting your face ground into the dirt by a bunch of "Barons" instead of a "King".

Republic now, please.

Secular Republic - no patron saints needed

Christ! there are some utterly joyless bastards on here.

+1

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I agree. Dis-band the monarchy and, therefore, that dirge of a British National [i]anthem[/i], dis-establish the CofE and get rid of first-past-the-post elections.

Back on topic:

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(Okay, built by the Normans....)

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[i]Christ! there are some utterly joyless bastards on here

certainly are, makes you wonder why they live here, if it's such a bad place to live............the eastern europeans seem to think it great!!!

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Carnival ;]

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toomanybikes - Member
Christ! there are some utterly joyless bastards on here

certainly are, makes you wonder why they live here, if it's such a bad place to live............the eastern europeans seem to think it great!!!

As has been said a few times on this thread you can be proud of your country without having to wave a bit of cloth around or envoking the spirit of someone who has nothing to do with England.

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Eid celebrations Manchester

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Gay Pride London

Dales Rider I see you and raise you:

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[i]You're right about Tikka Masala, my mistake. Learn something new everyday. [/i]

Well right in the sense something else Scotland claims to have come up with but may not be true. A bit like haggis, whisky, telephones and kilts.

Ooh Bamburgh Caslte good choice.

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The best 4x4xFar

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and why not....

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Trains on the ribble head- it's nothing if it's not the flying scotsman! Two of the best things to come out of Yorkshire.

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I waited for a couple of hours in horizontal rain at the bottom of the Ribbleshead Viaduct, waiting for a steam train to cross it on a family holiday in the late 90s once, was totally worth it!

Stonehenge - In England, but is it English?

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Stonehenge - In England, but is it English?

Is it English? Completely disregarding Stonehenge.. Is it English is a question as big and ancient as England itself..

Oooooooooooooh - have we mentioned cheese yet? English cheese is bloody great!!!! Grandma Singletons tasty Lancs for me please. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm cheese 😀

Aristotle - do you live in Blackrod?

MrWoppitt - Please die, either quietly, or in an amusing self-destruction a la Fred and Smee

I find it quite amusing that many on here seem to be confused as to what being 'English' is really about...

I'm English. I have no problem being English, and no bunch of right-wing Nazis are going to make me feel bad about being proud of where I'm from. I have a George's Cross flag waving from my balcony, and always want England to win stuff, regardless of the sport. I don't take it that seriously though really. I'm not fussed about St Georges day, especially following the enlightening piece about St Edmund. I'm not a Christian, so I'm not fussed about a saint anyway.

The use of a Spitfire to denote 'Englishness' is insulting to all the other nations of the UK, and all the other countries that fought alongside Britain during WW2. Designed and built in England maybe, but from materials from across the Globe, piloted by men from the entire UK, and other nations too. The wrong symbol.

What makes me 'proud' to be English, are little things, like a game of cricket on a village green, a cup of tea, a pint of nice beer, little Yorkshire puds, people being polite to one another, respect and manners. I'm not saying the last ones are exclusive to England, but they are values associated with Englishness.

The history of this country is rich and fascinating. The number of peoples from foreign lands that have made England their home is amazing. Such diversity and depth of culture.

I don't need some tabloid newspaper to tell me that I must be patriotic on one particular day of the year.

I'm forever English.

is it English? A question as big and ancient as England itself..

British, like many of the other "English" symbols posted.

If your not convinced, I believe it was built by the "Britons" - a generic name for the various Brythonic (ie Welsh / Cornish) speaking tribes that inhabited this country before the Saxon / English invasion.

I understand that "English Heritage" was rebranded because of extensive "criminal damage" to "English Heritage" signs at celtic and pre-celtic sites in Cornwall.

The judge dismissed the criminal damage cases on the basis of the defendents claims that celtic sites in Cornwall were pre-English and therefore had no right to be badged as "English Heritage"

I think it's right to be patriotic - nationalism is where it all starts to get a bit 'tomorrow belongs to me'. I dont see a problem in taking pride in your roots / heritage, just dont use it as an excuse to be detremental to others.

[i]The judge dismissed the criminal damage cases on the basis of the defendents claims that Celtic sites in Cornwall were pre-English and therefore had no right to be badged as "English Heritage" [/i]

That's not quite true is it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1768853.stm

rkk01 you're obviously very well researched so I'll take yer word for it..

I couldn't really give a stuff and I was only really thinking that it's very old and goes back furthur than any English/British/Celtic/Whatever tribal thingybob..

All that aside.. possession is 9/10s of the law and I'm a tree hugging slightly more pagan than christian celtic blooded westcountry Englishman.. (although Freeman would better suit) and that bloody great stone monument is in my geographically English back garden.. left there uncollected by god knows who.. so it's mine and English..
thanks

Reggae! I have alwasys been a big reggae fan but only recently came to appreciate how much the music developed in the clubs in London that catered for the West Indian diaspora. Raggae is at least as English as it is Jamaican

Most important thing mentioned on this thread so far is the Magna Carta.

And as far as England is concerned, Alfred the Great.

British, like many of the other "English" symbols posted.

OK, Start another thread for Welsh and Scottish symbols, so we can point out the errors in those as well. 😛

That's not quite true is it.

The way it was told to me it went on to a higher court?? - And anyway, my central point was that the claim of English Heritage (or not) was challenged, and the name of the organisation was subsequently changed to Natural England

FWIW - I don't generally see the point in getting hung up on all this stuff. Most of it is a response to the British / English juxtaposition and assumption.

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