[Closed] To appeal or not to appeal?

A friend of mine failed her NQT (i think) due to working in a bad school. She moved schools and is a fantastic teacher, and is highly regarded. Happy to ask her advice if you think it would help: could send privately.

I also understand that a high % of teachers don't make it beyond NQT, likely for the reasons you describe so she isn't alone and they must go on to have great careers away from teaching. For her future career, after all this has gone away I'd suggest seeking advice from some of them to ensure she has answers to explain what happened at interview.

Right.

1. what are the grounds for failing of NQT year? Which of the Teaching Standards has your partner allegedly not met?

2. When did your partner first find out that she was at risk of failing that Standard?

3. Was "at risk of failure" procedure invoked, along with the extra support that that entails? If so, when, and what was the result?

If this failure has come as a surprise to your partner then she has almost certainly not been given the support she has the right to expect.

If this has been a long drawn-out process of "you're failing to meet this standard - you need to do x by x date and here's how we're supporting you" and your partner still hasn't met the required standard then it may be that she's not suited to a career in teaching.

SO.... What are the grounds for the appeal? What does the Head say your partner has not done, and does your partner have the evidence that yes, they HAVE done that?

Just a hunch, but your partner's school isn't in Special Measures by any chance, is it?

The most useless **** I have ever worked for in my life was a UK headmaster. I simply walked out and haven't looked back (well both of us did). I have no idea how much of this harrasment/character assassination is in written form and how complete a record of the conflict with her head your wife has. A factual letter covering the head's behaviour to the school of education she attended, the local education authority and her union is as far as I'd take it, with maybe a visit to the police asking for restraining order to prevent the head having any further contact with your partner.

Hope she is happy in her new job.

Edit: Hebden above has it better if your partner wants to remain a teacher.

[i]I don't know what to do for the best. [/i]

Advise her to forget about it and concentrate on her new job.

She should appeal, she should make her allegations in writing. If she leaves teaching she should put the reasons in writing too. If she cannot go through with it due tomstress she shoukd put that in writing too. If people don't flag up problems they are never addressed.

She may want to try again sometime, it would be a great shame if she left teaching over this bad experience so early on

She was reported as a cause for concern after about 3 months. As a result of this the head would observe a lesson almost every week. We both feel this was counterproductive as it increased anxiety and pressure and as a result she performed worse making matters worse. All her feedback from these lessons was negative further compounding the problem. Also a lot of it was contradictory, one week she was told to be more independent, the next she was told she wasn't enough of a team player. She was also told to use older teaching methods that she wasn't familiar with and that nobody else was using. One of the things she has done is to dump a complaint or criticism on her on a Friday and told her they'll discuss it the following week, leaving her to stress about it all weekend. Another example is a child that has a history of being difficult and has a very demanding mother. This was a common experience with the other teachers that had this child and yet the head blamed my partner and offered no support whatsoever. With hindsight we feel we should have been more proactive in complaining about her but we have been struggling to keep our heads above water as it is.

Yes, appeal. Especially if she does ever want to go back to teaching, she will not want to redo her NQT year again.

They need to show what support they have given her, along with why they have failed her. First port of call would be her direct line manager in the school, if not, a union, who can help build a case.

She can still do this in another job, as I left a previous school but still appealed a decision. I must admit, it felt good appealing and at least challenging the head teacher with a group of governors there.

Sorry to hear about this mate , might be worth speaking to my Mrs the next time you are trimming the mother in laws bush. 😉 Joking aside its what my wife does for a living albeit with nurses but she may be able to give Naomi some help and support . Give us a shout If you want.

If she and you/your family can bear it, FIGHT!

****s like this get away with it because they intimidate people and are never challenged.

Or look at the badly parked car thread for ideas of puerile revenge.

She is really up for it but I feel done in by it all and would just like to get back to something like normality. Thanks for the offer Mr S, I'll mention it to her.

For balance.......

Is there a chance she is not cutting it? One of the big accusations against the education sector over the decades has been that we have been too lenient on underperforming teachers. There might have been a grain of truth to it a while back tbh but it has really tightened up. It's the heads responsibility to ensure those they are mentoring are doing what is required. It might just be that they are doing their job. My head is a pretty mercinary bastard at times and a number of teachers that have left have felt hounded out. But......in my heart of hearts Iknew they were not good enough and it was the right course of action for the kids. Listening to them in the staff room complaining about their treatment and what the head had said about them I'd often think he could have put it better but he's right on the money about you buddy. You also have to look at it from the head's perspective - it's expensive and time consuming to get rid of a teacher and advertise and train up a new one - and heads are busy and skint. No one brings that hassle and expense upon themselves if they can avoid it.

Don't get me wrong, being told you have deficiencies can be a real blow - it can be tough to hear. It's really easy to feel victimised when you hear the same thing again and again and either can't see the issue or can't do anything about it. The difference between a good and a below average teacher are often the subtle soft skills that if you haven't got you might not realise they exist.

It is of course potentially even harder to hear about your partner, especially when you are not in full possession of the facts - you only have one side of it and have never seen her in action. You want to think the best of your partner's abilities and be as supportive as possible.

Appeal if you feel it is the best course of action, but it is also your role to try and remain objective if you can.

You should be a head, Convert, well you shouldn't because you'd be a lousy man manager, but have exactly the kind of attitude of some heads.

Some people leave teaching because they don't feel they have the necessary skills, a lot more are "hounded out" or leave because even though they are good teachers and have a vocation for the profession get fed up with the political and administrative mountain of bureaucracy, the gob shite parents, the thuggy kids, the hideous governors and above all non-supportive incompetant or bullying heads ... . In brief all the nonsense they have to deal with outside the classroom.

The good news is that teachers who quit the profession do pretty well in whatever they do next. There are a few on this forum.

I would tell her to appeal. If she doesn't she will spend the rest of her life thinking she may have been a failure. If the appeal goes ahead she will learn what others think and can learn from it. And give the head some well-deserved shit.

well you shouldn't because you'd be a lousy man manager,

Well, the 23 people who I line mange say I'm ace - but they would do wouldn't they 🙂

What I am however is a realist and quite objective. We can pretty up the language and yes no one should be 'hounded out' but even if the right process has been followed with all the right support given it can still feel like that if you are at the blunt end of it (note I said felt hounded out, emphasis on the felt).

get fed up with the political and [b]administrative mountain of bureaucracy[/b], [b]the gob shite parents[/b], [b]the thuggy kids[/b], the hideous governors and above all non-supportive incompetent or bullying heads ... . In brief all the nonsense they have to deal with outside the classroom.

The bits in bold are the reality of what the job entails - no point in hiding behind 'vocation' - there is some proper shite to cope with too. As with every job.

edit - I'm not saying the OP's partner is not up to it - how could I (or anyone else here) possibly know. I'm just saying it's always a possibility and it's tough being supportive yet objective as the partner in these situations.

That may be the case but from what she's said in Scotland only 1-2% of NQTs are given a fail. I can't honestly believe she's one of those. One of her lecturers has said it's unbelievable. I think she was probably doubting herself before Christmas and the lack of support from the head and her mentor has made this worse, whereas if she had any kind of support she could have passed.

A line manager doesn't have the impunity of a head.

I'd say Madame is a pretty good teacher, at least 20 years of school teaching. Prof agrégée here and a PGCE in the UK. When she was doing her PGCE she had a rather bizarre and really nasty piece of work as a supervisor who rather than helping did everything in her power to undermine Madame. Madame was naturally upset by this and we talked it over. I put it down to jealousy as Madame was everything the supervisor wasn't - young, enthusiastic, bilingual, slim, sporty, attractive... . It wasn't even as if Madame lacked experience or confidence in the class room having already taught for three years in France.

I suggested she make the best of a bad job but write absolutely every conversation down with dates and time and file it. Towards the end of the teaching practice when it came to assessment by the supervisor we sat down and wrote a letter to her with a copy for the university school of education with some choice quotes and an appraisal of how she had fulfilled her role as supervisor. It did create something of a stink but Madame got her PGCE.

I've just read the above to Madame before posting and she's quite happy with it.

[[i]And give the head some well-deserved shit.[/i]]

Why does the Head deserve this?
Maybe the Head is making the correct decision.
Do you know the situation in detail rather than a dozen lines posted on a Cycling Forum?

Steven; I mentor probationers up here. If you want to contact me off forum, I may be of some practical use. Even if it is to advise on levels of support and procedure.

Excellent, Duckman. I had two helpful, supportive, good humoured supervisors (mentors now apparently) during my PGCE year. Madame was unlucky. I suspect the OP's partner has been unlucky.

If the head and mentor had been supportive and encouraging rather than constantly critical and regularly telling her she should quit then we wouldn't have an issue with the fail. If my partner had treated the kids the way she has been treated I don't think she would have lasted as long as she has.

OP - the best decision is the one that your partner can live with in the future and not be full of regrets. Sounds simplistic but is important. Whilst not appealing now may be the one with least headache, it may however leave a life of "oh I wish I'd appealed" etc.

Hi Steven - sorry to hear that, doesn't sound fun for anybody.

Having dealt with this kind of thing from the other side of the table - I would advise a neutral assessment of the verifiable facts. The Head can't do anything if he can't prove it, and has documents to back that. I think she should stick to her guns if the Head's evidence is weak, documentation is poor etc.

Also, the appeal process is there for a reason, and will serve the purpose of alerting the next step in the chain of command to the Head's actions.

Convert - turns out you can't offer balance and play Devil's Advocate in advice threads, you can only side with the OP.

Whether she has been treated badly or been poorly supported they have previously identified poor performance. This is likely to be evidence to support the head in any appeal.

What would be the impact of the potential outcomes of the appeal and how would the OP and partner deal with that? Before going into a fight think how you'd deal with losing.

Again only playing Devil's Advocate- not condoning bullying- the OP needs to hear and consider different opinions and aspects to make a more enlightened decision. Had people close to me go through something similar - they decided to concentrate their energies on looking forward when my advice had been to go to a tribunal. Months on its clear their decision was correct for them.

As a parent, and therefore consumer of educational services, I'd say If only 1-2% in Scotland fail this - it isn't tough enough.

However - any appraisal system which can be completely skewed by the opinions and actions of one person who is also a line manager seems suspect. Perhaps more info is needed, both for the OP, and in this thread, to make a meaningful assessment.

As a parent, and therefore consumer of educational services

Is that how you see it?

Appeal but take the other job.

I used to train NQT's and made sure they got the support and training from day one so they could use the rest of the year improving.

Thing is a lot of NQT's are given 5hit training and the support is just watching you fail.

My mentor quit after 2 weeks.
I was left to it for 6 months before an assistant principal came along to watch and say terrible etc.
Gave me 6 weeks to turn it around after I appealed and luckily had a ton of evidence against the school.

LEA turned up to see what's going on. Rang me outside of school to say unofficially get the hell out of there and find another school.

I handed in my notice and had a new school within 2 weeks. They employed for 6 months as a cover teacher so o wouldn't be assessed.

After giving me the support I needed or should have, they were pleased and then told the LEA they were employing me and will assess me in 6 weeks where I passed easily.

Been teaching a few years and was considered for an assistant principal position but I enjoyed what I was doing.

Ofsted graded me as excellent earlier this year. I was known to turn poor performing classes around and getting the best grades by making it simple to understand, making it fun and stretching the kids but also Darth Vadar with my behaviour control. Also had great rapport with parents.

I left teaching 2 weeks later after a new vice principal took over and ruined the school for kids and teachers by poor people skills and bullying tactics.

The VP tried to undermine me in front of my class. I gave the VP my board marker pen, told him to show me and he had no idea as I packed my briefcase and left. 6 teachers handed their notice and 4 walked out.

The school tried getting us back but we've seen it before in other schools with politics and accountability.
2 types of people enter teaching. Some have industrial experience with people skills and others who complete weirdos without people skills who have stayed in schools all their lives from school, uni and back to school. They try to justify themselves with poor schemes that don't work.

I'm Self employed now and enjoying the extra time off and extra cash from not working 6am to midnight 7 days a week for 5hit pay.

I would advise your wife to take the new job but appeal to keep her options open.

Yes. [b]Ransos[/b] I am effectively paying for education and have expectations that teachers will be competent and adequate.

I know that, in the decent well-thought of state comp my kids have gone to, some are not, and even the other teachers know it.

If you look at the number of teachers who are removed by the GTC versus the number of Doctors (my line of work) removed by the GMC, and speak to teachers - and see the some of the posts above - you will know that underperformance is poorly managed. It is currently easier to stop people becoming teachers than get rid of them when they are persistently under-performing despite support.

None of this in anyway relates to the OP's partner however, as we simply do not know enought to make that judgement.

I think this all confirms we need to go through with it. I haven't been in the classroom to witness my partner teaching but I have seen the amount of distress caused by the head and the way she has managed the situation needs to be looked at and challenged. Teaching is incredibly difficult, spending 6 hours a day with 30 kids, dealing with their parents, paperwork, lack of resources, unrealistic expectations etc and to do this as a NQT without any support from your head makes it near impossible.

I'd say If only 1-2% in Scotland fail this - it isn't tough enough.

You've made my day, Frankenstein. I so enjoyed reading that.

I miss working with the kids and the football team (unbeaten too). Loved it to be honest. Especially seeing kids do so well but not enough is enough. You need work life balance. Not burn out.

My friends and family hardly saw me though and was scoffing junk food on the fly after huge gaps of not eating and working through my lunch.

Thing is you have transferable skills and can go on to the other fields of work especially management and projects.

I thought about the PhD route or med school? but 4 more years of education vs. Give my own business a go - depending on your goals. I want to be filthy rich. Also Man Utd didn't have any vacancies for manager according to my letter 😉

Yes. Ransos I am effectively paying for education and have expectations that teachers will be competent and adequate.

I find it interesting that you appear see it in purely transactional terms.

[b]Ransos[/b] I absolutely don't - those are your words and I suspect relect the bees in your own bonnet.

But it is a [i]component [/i]of it. Are you saying parents and children are not - to some extent - customers?

[img] [/img]

Ransos I absolutely don't - those are your words and I suspect relect the bees in your own bonnet.

But it is a component of it. Are you saying parents and children are not - to some extent - customers?

Well no: I quoted what you said. I find it difficult to see how someone who talks, unprompted, in terms of consumption and payment does not see it in transactional terms.

Anyway, to answer your question. Customers are consumers of a commodity. In some important ways I don't think it's helpful to see education in those terms.

Customers are consumers of a commodity.

Or people who pay for a service.

In transactional terms, surely that qualifies as a commodity.

Every taxpayer pays for children's education, but no taxpayer receives it.

[I]That may be the case but from what she's said in Scotland only 1-2% of NQTs are given a fail. I can't honestly believe she's one of those[/I]

Sometimes people aren't good enough and unfortunately for the OP's OH their 'boss' decided that they weren't good enough.

I released someone from work last year, he just wasn't good enough. End of.

A commodity is an off-the-shelf product. You can commoditize some services but teachers adapt what they do to suit their clients so teaching is a service.

The headmaster is just as likely to merit a fail, br. Do they even kick out 1-2% of headmasters a year? Probably not.

Appeal. She might return to teaching in the future and won't want to do the NQT year again. It may also be of benefit in other roles, such as an education officer for a charity. If she deserves the qualification, she should get it.

This is going to be controversial, but given that the new head of OFSTED has a background as an accountant and has absolutely no teaching experience whatsoever, IMHO anyone attempting to force the rationale of consumerism into the education system richly deserves to be taken outside and shot.

The pendulum has swung way too far already. We're not going to fix education and the associated problems of workload and morale amongst teachers by throwing more Thatcherism at it.

[b]PJM1974[/b] Indeed, the language may be unhelpful. BUT children and parents [i]should [/i]have expectations of schools and teachers, [i]and [/i]vice versa.

So how to we deal effectively with under-performing and sick teachers who are not making the grade despite support?

Re the 1-2% - Espescially given how deeply we are now having to mine to recruit teachers, I am very surprised that 98-99% meet the grade.

[b]Edukator[/b] thats a strawman and you know it - this is 1-2% as a One-off - not per year - and way down the training scale.

I've never bothered to Google either "tin foil hat" or "strawman", Stoatsbrother, despite reading them on this forum for years. I've never Googled Molgrip's "pillock" either. Some things are so obviously petty insults it's not worth knowing.

I used someone else's numbers and should perhaps of put it in inverted commas.

You often read about "incompetent teachers" but very little about incompetent headmasters. IME a headmaster is more likely to be incompetent, a complete **** or both, and far less likely to sacked.

[url= http://bullyonline.org/old/workbully/teachers.htm ]Lots of teachers agree.[/url]

strawman

Its not an insult - ad homs are insults or playing the man rather than the argument
However an ad hom may be relevant as I did one on Jamby n the EU thread but it irrelevant that his "facts" are rarely actual "acts.

tin foil hat - conspiracist nutter

pillock- idiot

Thanks, Junkyard, sometimes ignorance is bliss.

😆

Indeed not an insult at all. A logical fallacy in your argument. Discussing apples when I was talking oranges...

Googling here might have prevented you taking offence 😉

Go through with the appeal, but bear in mind that future employment may be challenging.

While references are written, there are so many phonecalls between heads about staff off the record, that even if it looks like a sure thing, a single call can wipe it out.

Your partner should have been informed at every step of the process that she was going to fail. Her tutors at university should be able to offer advice, as should her union.

Can't abide by bullying heads. Although they did inspire me to become one, a head, not a bully.

I stood up to a corrupt system, and ended up being told to move on or be moved on. I chose to move on and got a glowing reference as it was international. If it had been local or UK, I suspect it would have been very different.