MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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My boss has sent out an email stating that we should all be at our desks and working (ie in all of our systems) by 9am.
Our systems take between 10 and 20 minutes to load due to network issues.
This seems wrong to me. As long as I'm logged on by 9, he shouldn't have anything to mither us about.
Funnily enough he doesn't appear to have an issue with people staying late...
erm, in the current economic climate, when the boss says jump, I'd say you jump...
I manage a team, and have had to bring a couple of people up on this recently - the stance is that you have to be capable of working your contracted hours, and if you need the system to do that, then you should time your arrival accordingly. 10 minutes for a system boot isn't unreasonable, after all, you're on here during the day clearly, and you can always grab a coffee while you're waiting. If you are unable to do so for any reason, that's a personal chat / agreement between yourself and your boss.
To be brutally honest, if you want to work to rule, become a civil servant. Otherwise deal with it, or move jobs.
easy, tell your boss that one person will come in early each day and start everyone's machine for them. To do this, all passwords will be the same!
I'd tell them to **** off. Come in at 9am, switch machine on and shuffle papers until machine is booted up. I wouldn't be having any of this come in 20 minutes before you start just so you can get your PC fired up nonsense.
Micro managing is something that managers at he first level of leader, i.e. they manage individual contributors rather than other leaders, need to do. Beyond that, micro managing actually causes leaders to fail.
pk-ripper - Member
erm, in the current economic climate, when the boss says jump, I'd say you jump...
Unless, of course, you're a banker working in a high rise building....
At the moment if the boss asks me to jump, its how high, with me!
We used to have a guy here who walked, after he upped and left half way through a meeting that was overrunning.
Won't say what the boss said at the time, but one of the funniest things I have ever heard at a meeting, talk about totally losing it 😉
do you work in a call centre?
I'm not sure saying 'you have to be workign at 9am, not 20 past' is micromanaging.
If there's a team of 10 people he's losign half a days productivity every day whilst you all start your machines.
erm, in the current economic climate, when the boss says jump, I'd say you jump...I manage a team, and have had to bring a couple of people up on this recently - the stance is that you have to be capable of working your contracted hours, and if you need the system to do that, then you should time your arrival accordingly. 10 minutes for a system boot isn't unreasonable, after all, you're on here during the day clearly, and you can always grab a coffee while you're waiting. If you are unable to do so for any reason, that's a personal chat / agreement between yourself and your boss.
Whilst it's probably practical advice that right now rocking the boat is maybe a bad idea, your 'stance' is so incredibly blatantly stupid that I'm glad you're not my boss. It's like saying to a train driver that they only get paid once they get the train to the station, rather than for the time driving the train out of the depot. If you want people to start work quicker, then make the systems work properly and start up in a sensible time. If you want people answering the phones at 9am, and the system takes 10 minutes to start up, then pay them to come in at 8:45.
The person you (and the original poster's bosses) should be hassling, is the IT people, 10 minute+ boot up times is a sign that something is right and proper screwed on your network.
Joe
If there's a team of 10 people he's losign half a days productivity every day whilst you all start your machines.
Which he should take up with the IT department. Turning on a machine that is vital to your work is just as much part of your work as doing whatever task you do when the machine is on.
Joe
You're contracted to work a set number of hours. Its the BUSINESS's job to ensure the hardware is there and ready for you to work, not your job to come in early. I'd personally probably just accept it, though you shouldnt have to, but thats why I dont work in that sort of arena.
10 minute+ boot up times is a sign that something is right and proper screwed on your network.
Totally agree, a 10 minute boot is quite simply stupid.
I'm glad I'm not your boss either Joe, else with an attitude like that you wouldn't last long.
Im with Pk. I personally resent people who turn up at bang on the dot and busy themselves putting their coat down/making tea/making themselves comfortable. Do all that later. Start as you mean to go on.
pk-ripper - what exactly is wrong with joe's attitude?
As coffeeking says - if your working day starts at 9 then you should be ready to start at 9. So at precisely 9am turn the 'puter on. If yu start at 8.45 you are doing unpaid overtime
If I catch the bus to work, I usually get in for 9.15 to 9.30. My contracted hours start at 9am. If I ride in, I get in for about 8.40, then head for a shower at 9am.
The day some small minded little c**t starts telling me to be in for 9 is the day I start walking out of the door at 5, rather than working my t*ts off all hours of the day and night.
[i]do you work in a call centre? [/i]
No, but it's starting to feel like it.
To "work" we need our Im software, email (3 mailboxes) and an aging piece of manufacturing/sales software to spring into life.
Yes our network has issues.
The manager in question micromanages other areas also.
Im with Pk. I personally resent people who turn up at bang on the dot and busy themselves putting their coat down/making tea/making themselves comfortable. Do all that later. Start as you mean to go on.
Turning on the computer isn't 'making tea', 'making yourself comfortable'. It's a vital part of the work. If it takes a long time, then it's because they've designed their systems poorly (or 'network issues' as it's described above, which basically means the same thing).
In a professionally run organisation, where there are daily preparatory tasks required, people are paid to come in before they are required to be fully active. For example in shops, banks etc. it is common to be paid to come in 30 minutes before opening time to open up the till, check things out, before turning on the customer face at 9am or whatever. In a situation like that described above, the manager is just expecting free work, which isn't a professional thing to do as a manager, it's just going to demoralise those who are affected by it. Just because you may be able to get away with poor management in the current economic climate doesn't make it good management.
Joe
Nothing to do with micromanagement. As others have said, as soon as you press that on button on the computer you are working. Why should you come in 20 minutes before your contracted hours because your IT system is rubbish? If you need to be ready with your system running at 9, then you should be contracted to start earlier.
ourmaninthenorth, are you serious?
Why are people finding it surprising that others don't bend over and take it from their bosses?
Go into the machines BIOS and set it to turn on every week day at 8.20am!
Can't you just lock the computer overnight?
These sorts of issues often flare up as a result of problems elsewhere. Problems like not meeting financial targets. It may be that these demands are a precursor to redundancies.
It's your choice, act like a student and get laid off, brownnose and keep employed.
Your boss is being unreasonable. We have a similar setup here, 4 PC's to boot up, test equipment to set up etc. I manage a team of 7 people and wouldn't dream of asking people to come in early just to start the process, because it's so obviously part of the working day. Everyone in production has to wear anti-static coats and shoes, and are paid for changing into and out of these too, due to them being stored after the clocking machine.
Our man in the north, your approach seems fair, providing you have an understanding boss. It's about give and take. If they expect you to work late regularly, there should be some flexibility with start times. When I worked in NW London, I started at 10.30 because I had a 2 hour commute. Always worked till at least 6.30, and on one ocasion was prototyping stuff till 8am the following morning to help meet a deadline.
Those that allow their bosses to shaft them are responsible for the fact that in britain on average we work longer hours than the rest of Europe and do huge amounts of unpaid overtime.
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jan/07/record-levels-unpaid-overtime-tuc [/url]
7 hrs a week? now if you do a 35 hr week on your contract and do this unpaid overtime you are effectivly dropping your hourly rate of pay by 20%
I manage a team, and have had to bring a couple of people up on this recently - the stance is that you have to be capable of working your contracted hours, and if you need the system to do that, then you should time your arrival accordingly. 10 minutes for a system boot isn't unreasonable, after all, you're on here during the day clearly, and you can always grab a coffee while you're waiting.
Yeah well wait for the economy to improve and watch your best people walk out the door - assuming they haven't done so already.
Yeah well wait for the economy to improve and watch your best people walk out the door - assuming they haven't done so already.
I'd be surprised if they do, primarily because we reward good performance and commitment through discretionary performance related bonuses etc above and beyond the contracted terms. And that's not excepting the current market - if you want people to stay, you have to incentivise them.
That's why I'm not a full believer in "studies" such as those quoted for this glut of unpaid overtime we supposedly do in the UK. For some, yes, but factor in bonuses and career progression etc, then it's not as bad as it appears in my opinion.
I'd say fair enough - as long as he doesn't mind the fact that you start winding up at ten to 5, so that by 5 on the button you're standing at the door with your coat on ready to leave 😆
ourmaninthenorth, are you serious?
Deadly. I am expected to be available to work at any time of the day and night. My earliest finish last week was 9pm. The latest 2am. I worked all weekend. On all those days, I arrived at around 9ish. But I don't see why TF I need to clock in if the assumption is that I can give up my life just like that.
Our man in the north, your approach seems fair, providing you have an understanding boss. It's about give and take. If they expect you to work late regularly, there should be some flexibility with start times.
For me, it's part of the deal. Of course, it can work the other way: a trainee at a famous London law firm, when getting up from his desk at 10.30pm to put his coat on to go home, was met with his boss saying "Are you cold?".
I'd be surprised if they do, primarily because we reward good performance and commitment through discretionary performance related bonuses etc above and beyond the contracted terms. And that's not excepting the current market - if you want people to stay, you have to incentivise them.
That's why I'm not a full believer in "studies" such as those quoted for this glut of unpaid overtime we supposedly do in the UK. For some, yes, but factor in bonuses and career progression etc, then it's not as bad as it appears in my opinion.
You think that there won't be someone else prepared to pay more? Or that people won't change jobs for a more positive working environment?
leave your computers on overnight, sorted 😉
urmaninthenorth - I do hope you are being well paid for that - have you signed away your rights under the working time directive? Even so you are probably breaking the law that requires you to have 11 hrs rest between shifts and IIRC one rest day per week
Ever counted up the hours you work and worked out what your hourly rate comes to?
I do find this sort of thing amazing nothing would get me to work such eccessive hours - but then I will never be well paid.
I have signed my rights away under the directive, all middle management and above have it in their contract
The network server...?
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TJ - of course uihave opted out. If i wish to opt back in, I have to give three months' notice (one less than my notice to resign). I don't work shifts; I am salaried.
I did work out my hours once, when I was a trainee (on £20k), and for a period it was much elss than minimum wage.
By the average joe's standards, I'm well paid. By the standards of my profession (law), my pay is pretty p*ss poor. It isn't helped by the fact I don't work in London and there's a massive - easily double - difference in salary for my level.
I accept (more by way of resignation) my lifestyle as coming with the job. It's the jam tomorrow thing: "work like a dog now, and you'll make it so that one day, my son, all this will be yours". The reality, as my generation of lawyers is rapidly discovering, is quite different. It's more like "work like a dog and, if profits are looking like they'll drop, we'll get rid of you - even if you do stay, there's no guarantee you'll make it". So, where's the incentive. I might as well roll into work pretty much as I please (within the confines of not taking the p*ss).
It is particularly disenchanting. But, right now, I have little alternative: there aren't a whole pile of jobs for mid-level corporate lawyers at the moment.
[i]leave your computers on overnight, sorted[/i]
Has crossed my mind but we're not allowed.
We have people at work who would be right behind BillOddie encouraging him to rebel and as soon as he spoke up he'd find they'd all have run off and hidden under their desks!
It's Shit! sorry but its the real world. Today I started at 6 and finished at 8:20 no breaks no time off, do I complain and lose my job or just shut up get on with it?
I have signed my rights away under the directive, all middle management and above have it in their contract
Which is illegal.
Ourmaninthenorth -Don't matter about being saleried - working without 11 hrs off between attendences is illegal ( I think - telling a lawyer the law - gulp)and you can't opt out of that ( there are some exceptions IIRC) but not for lawyers!
Hope you get your Jam tomorrow. I decided to have a life now and bread and water tomorrow!
My wife is a nurse, and all the nurses on her ward have opted out of the European working regulations...
It's not illegal to opt-out, but it's illegal to force employees to opt-out.
signing a contract of employment is choice.
If the whole of one part of a workforce has it in their contracts, that is illegal since it is no longer voluntary (the only obvious choice being not to work there).
The opt out is going soon anyway.
as long as you are at your workstation on time you are OK
you are employed from the times stated on your contract
if you worked in a factory with machines would he apply the same principal i.e. that you must be in work before your shift starts to ensure all the oil, coolant levels are ok, the hydraulic pressure is set,etc.etc. so you can start producing ay the start of your shift - if he did he'd get lynched ! it's bad management machine/workplace set up time should be factored into all jobs.
the working time directive is there to protect yours and your colleagues,mates,families health and quality of life - don't let the bosses make a mockery of it !
i've tackled numerous employers on both of these issue and won every time - join a union, get others at work to join, organise. and don't let the 'credit crunch' hardtimes b#llsh#t be used to excuse bad management, or bully you into accepting cr@p !!!!
PK Ripper - I'm glad I don't work for you too. Perhaps you're getting your own work issues mixed up in your head with the OP's and so coming across a bit hardline, but his situation sounds like a clear cut case of an employer trying to get extra hours for free.
In the sort of work enviroment where people start at 9 and finish at 5 (or more likely 5.30 nowadays), it's reasonable to expect staff to be at their desks and switching on their PC at 9.
If their employer is taking advantage as much as Ourman's, then he/she is very wise to allow him a bit of latitude on start times.
Ourman - Isn't it dangerous for lawyers to work such long hours?
Don't they end up putting the wrong clauses in the wrong documents and giving half the company away by mistake?
bit of give and take at my place. It's my daughter's birthday tomorrow so I'll be opening presents first thing and late in, and then coming home early in time for tea and cake with the grandparents tomorrow. But that's why I've just finished doing some stuff now at home, so i can have those couple of hours 'for free'
I really feel for people who either can't or don't want to extract that flexibility from their bosses. Mines a **** in many ways but on this point he is at least reasonable.
A mate of mine had an interesting misinterpretation of the working time directive scenario. He's a consultant for a big consulting firm. Coming up to the end of the year, HR suddenly panicked on the WTD and sent out an edict that basically he couldn't work for about the last 3 weeks before Xmas for fear of exceeding his hours. Once the year clicked over, and the slate was clean, the project was 3 weeks behind and he had to put in almost all the missed hours to catch it up again! But at least HR ticked their box, eh?
Never mind the rules, just don't work for @rseholes, and it will all work out.
Sh*t does anyone here actually enjoy their job and not see it as some fascist/capitalist conspiracy to keep you shackled and chained? 'Workers of the world you have nothing to loose but your chains' anyone? I mean really, wouldn't it just be easier all round if you all had a job that you actually enjoyed doing and therefore were quite happy to be in the office half an hour early without feeling you were being exploited?
Of course I do understand that your manager plays a seriously big part in that experience. People join companies but they [I] leave [/i]bad/poor managers, i.e. it's not usually the company that people become disillusioned with.
Sh*t does anyone here actually enjoy their job and not see it as some fascist/capitalist conspiracy to keep you shackled and chained?
Generally the people who have to wait 20 minutes for a computer to boot would rather be somewhere else.
"Never mind the rules, just don't work for @rseholes, and it will all work out."
I wish...
Hope you get your Jam tomorrow. I decided to have a life now and bread and water tomorrow!
I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that, since the jam isn't likely to materialise, perhaps there's other stuff I can do. And bread and water tastes just fine....
I've just rocked in 8)
Right, coffee time.