[Closed] Those striking working class london bus drivers, and essex firemen

and yet if they were of the teaching profession you'd be full of vitriol.

salt ov the earth mate, dontya jus luvum.

Ya just seem to be in a provocative mood... Not too sure why, are you??

I wouldn't trust a bus driver that took years to train.

It's all about pensions I'm afraid. Not so much pay although in some cases there have been pay freezes for the last 5 years. The doctors are totally justified in my opinion, a doctor on the radio highlighted a very valid point which is life expectancy beyond retirement. Retirement ages are being pushed to the max l, could they be trying to reduce the likelihood of paying out full pensions?!

Not surprised government are trying to push retirement dates out. If as stated in media, the
pension for docs is as big as 67k a year that would cost the government about 1.2million each person in today's money. One of the consequences of that silly quantitative easing that produces ridiculously low long term rates that don't really help anyone

My father works for the fire brigade. Government promised them a pay rise every 2 years. This will be his 3rd without. He doesn't mind so much because hes gained promotion but only through his own doings. He's also paying in more to his pension every month now, bringing the payment to pension over £500 a month now for no extra benefit after they increased percentages...

Ps I'm not trying to say docs get too much just saying we are in a big mess pension wise. I wish the "powers that be " would stop distorting interest rates with quantitative easing. Pension costs are also killing companies in the private sector. The money involved in QE doesn't even flow round the real economy but stays in the banking sector...aaaargh!

Yep big old mess, worst thing that happened was the media making it a private versus public. Which it isn't, we're all in the together. As said above the fire fighters have not seen pay rise in 3 or more years, now being asked to work longer and pay more monthly contributions yet getting a reduced pension in the end. The thing that bugs me is they want firefighters to work to ages where it is not physically possible to do the job!

And what age would that be?

67?

The age that paramedics have to work to.

Now there is a profession who is fully entitled to moan about their lot!

Those dam bus drivers (and train drivers while were at it) are plain just damm greedy!

I think most honest hard working folk here would see the Olympics as an opportunity ...an opportunity to get more overtime and [b]earn[/b] more money. ...rather than an opportunity to extort more money from the travelling public.

Why is it that some people don't feel that they have to earn what they are paid?

brack - Member
And what age would that be?

67?

The age that paramedics have to work to.

Now there is a profession who is fully entitled to moan about their lot!

Why does it have to be a competition?

Bus drivers highly skilled? Years to train?

Please tell me that's a joke!

Competition?

There's no competition...? Just merely stating a fact!

on QT tonight dimbles pointed out that the average dr has a 48k pa pension and asked the audience how many of them got that much.. answer not one..

bus drivers are highly skilled, i got 9 days training and passed the test first time.
the reason there is a shortage of bus drivers in the uk is because most people cant handle the shifts/ working with the public.
edit:i was being sarcastic about highly skilled, the actual job is a piece of piss.

Totally agree paramedics are just as important as any other proefession and do a valuable job which not everyone can do. I couldn't do it. However in response the age is 65 but, bear in mind trying to climb a 13 metre ladder with a 30kg weight in your back whilst carry a hose, then possibly add the heat of around 700 hundred degrees and I would doubt you could find many 65 year olds capable of doing that! On a different note, I feel
Most sorry for the private workers who have paid into pensions for years only to be told they'll et nothing! THAT is awfull!! P.s. do doctors get more money when it's busy, do firefighters get more money when it's busy or paramedics. No they all go beyond what they are required to do so why should bus drivers be any different. Absolute joke.

"What's the world coming to?"

As ever, it's just trundling along ok, it's not about to end or even change dramatically, yet you need to whine on and on and on in your uber dull threads...

Divide and conquer?

Divide and conquer?

working with the public.

Don't think that's on the job description! Bus drivers who stare mutely at you as though you're expected to know the fare (despite the fact it's different on each of the four companies running the route), glaring at you when you try to pay with a £5 note, and then booting it from standstill while people are still standing up.

About time they started fitting black boxes to buses so accelerator / brake pedal inputs and actual acceleration can be recorded and flagged up if unusually aggressive or high. Take some responsibility for their work.

My job will be intensely stressful during the Olympics but I don't expect, nor ask for, extra cash.

* Note to self - next time on a London bus, pay with £20 note simply to annoy the driver.

Note to self - next time on a London bus, pay with £20 note simply to annoy the driver.

Maybe you should ask yourself what kind of person would go out of their way to deliberately annoy someone else?

all the buses are already fitted with black boxes to monitor acceleration/braking/cornering forces.
imo, there are 2 types of people driving buses, there are bus drivers and people with a category D entitlement on their licence.
i fully understand your comments re the blank stare you get off some drivers, but not all drivers are like that, im not.

The Essex fire service strikes aren't over the pension issue. They are striking over cuts to frontline services. Pensions is a national issue, so if there's going to be strike action over pensions every brigade in the country will be involved and not just Essex.

It's hard to sympathise with any public sector workers whose pensions are being shafted when the same happened to the private sector ages ago. It's just "welcome to the (slightly more) real world" Doc.....

martymac - Member
all the buses are already fitted with black boxes to monitor acceleration/braking/cornering forces.
imo, there are 2 types of people driving buses, there are bus drivers and people with a category D entitlement on their licence.
i fully understand your comments re the blank stare you get off some drivers, but not all drivers are like that, im not.

Along with cctv inside and out gps recording the route and times, and nat express coaches with breathalysers, i still think driving a bus of 70 people who all think they can drive the thing better and faster or slower, who dont care about the driver, who dont have the right money, who moan about late running, who treat the inside of the bus like a toilet or takeaway, who swear and scream at the driver for anything, who make malicious claims for compo, and who generally do their best to be obnoxious to toher passengers.

They got grilled on Radio 4 this morning. It seems like the same old thing over and over again, and I'm not sure where I stand because there's more than one side to it.

Basically, those who have the opportunity to milk it, will.

The rest of us just plod on with no extra pay, working through lunch breaks, no pensions, holidays when we're told we can have them....or is that just me?? And this is the thing, without these whingers, we'd all still be stuck in the s***, working long hours for little pay, while we get milked by the rich.

There's contempt, because many of these people already have it good, but those that don't don't have the voice because they'll promptly be shown the door...so as embassadors, perhaps they're doing the right thing...

We just need to keep the balance, as we're in danger of having bus drivers become the rich, and subsequently rule the world. Or something.

Some food for thought.

@ project,
yep all of that is dead right.
our buses (stagecoach) have the gps and cctv as well as a traffic light warning on the dash which turns red if you corner too hard etc.
i still think the job is pretty easy tho tbh.
i was offered the chance to go to london for the olympics, it was easy to decline, even though its (a little) more money.
EDIT:
@ butcher,
most of your statements would apply to me as well, working through breaks, never being finished on time, no pension, holidays when im told i can have them regardless of whether its convenient for me etc.
thats the way life is in many industries atm, too many folk on the dole waiting to take your job innit?

Martymac, have a look for a book about Stagecoach by Chrisian Wolmar, a really good read,about multi millionaire Ann Gloag and Sir Brian Souter, the founders of stagecoach.

As far as the bus drivers are concerned, it's worth noting that the Transport for London directors recently voted themselves an £80,000 Olympic bonus apiece. On top of their hardly insububstantial salaries. When those above you have got their snouts in the (taxpayer funded) trough to that extent, they can hardly be that surprised if the drones fancy a piece of the action.

Given those figures, a demand for 500 notes actually seems quite restrained

Bit harder to support the bus strikes.
The other services strike effected were non-essential or not urgent, with care taken to avoid hardship for the public where they really needed the service. With the bus-strike, its fairly easy for the average folk to find alternative transport for the day. But the more vulnerable, the disabled, old, or pregnant ladies, who can't use the alternatives are the ones that suffer more due to the bus strike.
Personally, don't know what they could have done differently but ,imo, it makes it less likely to gain public support.

@ project, i will do m8, its available on amazon.
i notice that i cant get on his website though?
error 403.

The average salary of a GP is £105,700. This is four times the country's average wage (and quite right too), so of course they are going to get bigger pensions than most people. And let's not forget, pensions are deferred wages.

spotted this on the Guardian - it shows that employee contributions to the NHS scheme only doubled over the last 10 years but the employer contributions (from taxpayers) rose seven fold over the same period. If you extrapolate the figures and allow for the massive increase in employees who will receive a pension in the future it's pretty easy to see why the government are trying to reform the pension scheme now:

[url= http://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Pensions/Documents/Pensions_FOI_Requests/Sinar_figures.pdf ]NHS BSA Pension Figures[/url]

Maybe you should ask yourself what kind of person would go out of their way to deliberately annoy someone else?

I'm going for small-minded, petty, and childish?

Farmer John that's just the point. Long term interest rates have got so stupidly low that to give someone a decent pension it requires mind boggling amounts of cash. That has closed down many private sector companies and also threatens government pension schemes. Yet the wise economic policy committee men still talk about more quantitative easing designed to bring down long term interest rates. They say this will help the economy, but it makes no sense.

It's hard to sympathise with any public sector workers whose pensions are being shafted when the same happened to the private sector ages ago. It's just "welcome to the (slightly more) real world" Doc.....

maybe if private sector workers hadnt rolled over so easily it might not have happend. Or maybe they were happy to dance with the devil.

These striking people are either rather greedy or simply being wound up by the the Unions ...

maybe if private sector workers hadnt rolled over so easily it might not have happend. Or maybe they were happy to dance with the devil.

Maybe they knew that the alternative was the company making them redundant and opening a factory in Poland instead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8507066.stm

I've often wondered if the vocal minority of the public sector would be quite so militant if they knew there was an alternative - not long before the tube drivers get replaced by computer controlled automation for example.

Hard to replace Doctors and teachers with cheap polish workers though and many of the easily replaced low skilled private sector workers would not have had pensions anyway so thats a poor comparison zulu. When private sector pensions were raped the well paid were well rewarded so didnt make a fuss, now they ate struggling they start frothing about public sector pensions.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Hard to replace Doctors and teachers with cheap polish workers ...

Nope. That is wrong. They are not difficult to replace put it this way.

Good luck with that then chewkw

I've often wondered if the vocal minority of the public sector would be quite so militant

Are we meant to think that all the public sector strife...the ones where they voted and all that stuff are the results only of a "vocal minority". You knwo wthat i sBS but it is a nice way to try and belittle those you disagree with ....as is you speak for the silent majority...YOU speaking for the majority of public sector unionised lefty doo gooders....Well it could happen I suppose ...now that really would be silly ...still a vocal minority would easily trump your very vocal lone voice eh 😉
As for militant...they strike roughly every 40 years or so ....Now if that is not militant then pray tell me what is?
Your argument is BS and your choice of language rather tabloid
as A-A notes your right wing wet dream of sacking everyone and re-employing cheaper people in the public sector will largely remain that as we have to deliver service here and we are rather well trained and hard to replace.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Good luck with that then chewkw

One of my GP is from eastern block and she is nice ...

Hard to replace Doctors and teachers with cheap polish workers though

Ah, [b]all[/b] public sector workers are doctors and teachers, sorry, I'd forgotten that

and many of the easily replaced low skilled private sector workers would not have had pensions anyway so thats a poor comparison zulu.

Oh, sorry, I thought you'd just told us that private sector workers rolled over too easily, now you're saying that they never had pensions in the first place - sorry, your narrative seems to have got itself a bit confused.

When private sector pensions were raped the well paid were well rewarded so didnt make a fuss, now they ate struggling they start frothing about public sector pensions.

I think you'll actually find that the people with the most incredulity towards public sector workers militancy are low paid private sector workers - because they are the ones who are being most **cked around by other peoples selfishness - as a friend of mine said on her facebook yesterday:

[i]Thank you London buses, nice 40min walk to the train station this morning, then busy day at work, had to stay late, then long walk back home (with a painful foot.) I might just stamp my feet (if I had 2 good ones) and spit my dummy out when I have a busy day at work . I wont do anything until I get a nice bonus! Oh, hang on, no, not going to happen GRRRR!!![/i]

I'm sure there are thousands of them just waiting to come in and work for peanuts.

Nothing wrong with my narrative, I thinks its your right wing wet dream that is a bit out of sync.

[i]Around 90,000 of the UK’s 246,000 doctors trained abroad, along with 83,000 of 671,000 nurses, 5,000 of 45,000 pharmacists and 11,000 of 40,000 dentists. The number of foreign doctors has jumped by 2,000 in 12 months.[/i]

😉

So why are we not sacking them?

Hard to replace Doctors and teachers with cheap polish workers though
Ah, all public sector workers are doctors and teachers, sorry, I'd forgotten that

its a ludicrous argument and is literally impossible to do

They could have no skills, not be doctors, teachers, nurses, lawyers, coppers and all be utterly unskilled and require only a pulse to do the job and you could still not do it.

perhaps they have no pensions because they rolled over too easily?

Well if the FB comment of a right wing fantasist is not proof of the "millitancy" of public sector and what people in general think Then I dont know what is 🙄

Well, for a start the evil tories have employed an additional 4000 doctors since the election.... so you don't want to be sacking people when you're busy on a recruitment drive, do you

oops, again, that doesn't fit the narrative of evil tory cuts destroying the NHS, does it 😉

Secondly - where did I suggest replacing public sector workers with foreign ones? I tink you'll find that I suggested that public sector militancy would be reduced if the threat was their jobs being offshored, as has happened in the public sector.

CSA would be a good example - all that lovely juicy paperwork and call centres - if that was private sector we'd have shipped it off to india years ago - its not like the service could get any worse than it is at present, is it?

Google is ace what is the opening line to your above quote Zulu?

[b]The latest figures raise ­concerns for patient safety due to language problems and culture clashes.[/b]

Around 90,000 of the UK’s 246,000 doctors trained abroad, along with 83,000 of 671,000 nurses, 5,000 of 45,000 pharmacists and 11,000 of 40,000 dentists. The number of foreign doctors has jumped by 2,000 in 12 months.

Of the 77 struck off last year 19 were from the EU and 33 from other countries. Health Secretary Andrew Lansley has announced plans to make docs prove they speak English well before they treat patients.

The move comes after the death of David Gray, 70, in Cambridgeshire. He was given 10 times the right dosage of painkiller by out-of-hours locum Daniel Ubani, of Germany, who had failed an English test with one health authority. Now Health Service bosses have been criticised for depriving ­poverty-stricken countries of their home-grown talent.

A total of 663 doctors are from the world’s 20 poorest nations, ­including 89 from Afghanistan, nine from Liberia and four from Haiti.

The British Medical Association calls the situation “morally indefensible”.

Prof Edward Mills, a global health researcher, said: “Poorer countries are essentially funding the NHS.”

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2012/04/29/uk-reliant-on-foreign-doctors-102039-23841009/

So if we want more deaths we could do it? that would teach those millitants and cheer your mate [ if not her foot] up
Go ride your talking bosh

Again - where did I suggest replacing public sector workers with foreign ones?

I suggested offshoring public jobs - it was CheckW who talked about replacing them 🙄

Its interesting that the Lefties are all jumping up to be first on the bandwagon [b]against [/b] immigration now - after years of telling us that it was vital to the economy and that anyone who was opposed to it was racist while we brought in a million foreigners, we've now got Miliband on the telly telling us that 'Enoch was right' after all 😆

evil tories have employed an additional 4000 doctors since the election

it can take up to nine years to qualify as a GP, and 12 years to become a consultant to train a doctor.

So if there has been a surge in newly qualified physicians in the last two years, that must because the last government increased training places.

I am sure the previous labour government appreciate your praise of them increasing the number of training hospitals and dr places so we can all reap the rewards...how kind of you

Offshoring is defined as the movement of a business process done at a company in one country to the same or another company in another, different country. Almost always work is moved because of a lower cost of operations in the new location

As it is you i am sure you have well thought out explanation of how we do this and many examples of countries out souring public services...China have loads of soldiers perhaps we could outsource defence to them?

No one has suggested anything about immigration I told you what the current governments position was gave the whole article form which you tool a quote. I understand that it is clearly impossible to do what you suggested and you feeble argument is defeated.
All you have left is to make a spurious claim about immigration in order to avoid admitting your view is unrealistic and not well thought out.
I am sure it fooled and distracted a lot of people 🙄

what country am I sending my kids to school in and where do i go for my operations

Ah, [b]all [/b]public sector workers are doctors and teachers, sorry, I'd forgotten that [b]again[/b]

China have loads of soldiers perhaps we could outsource defence to them?

We've been sucessfully outsourcing/offshoring defence for about two hundred years

[img] [/img]

Keep it up zulu you really are a comedy genius.

well you could have used policing but we all know how good you are at selective quoting and avoiding the point.

Shame if you had a credible positon you could defend it rather than just do this.

We have been offshoring /outsourcing an aspect of defence not defence. There is considerable difference that even you, if you think really hard and squint, can probably just about see.

Hmm - probably can't offshore policing - but We did a pretty good job of offshoring prisons, didn't we?

[img] [/img]

We have been offshoring /outsourcing an aspect of defence not defence. There is considerable difference that even you, if you think really hard and squint, can probably just about see.

Ok - so, you accept that we [b]can[/b] sucessfully offshore [b]aspects[/b] of the public sector to reduce taxpayer/government expenditure

I'm over the moon that we've finally found [b]something [/b] we can agree on 🙂

and I am delighted you agree we cannot do it all and your original point is wrong

You can't offshore public sector jobs because the public sector is part of the government, run for the benefit of this country. Offshoring any job is of no benefit whatsoever to this country.